F T/R Competition F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

[texasbrian66]

Hello all

I ran across a interesting article last night <span style="text-decoration: underline">F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle </span>. F-Class AR15

John Dink the Match Director for Centerfire Prone at ZIA Rifle and Pistol Club, Albuquerque, New Mexico Created a new Mid-Range (600 yard) F-Class format for AR15-type rifles, using the same targets with ½ MOA "X" and 1 MOA 10-ring @ 600 yards.

His article lists the basic specifications for an F-AR15 rifle are:

1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel – 1:9 if you only want to shoot 69 grain bullets
Match type chamber specifications – without too much free-bore
Flat-top
Match-trigger
Free-floating forend
16-24 inch barrels (longer is better) – the most accurate barrel tested was a 20-incher
Optical riser/rail with 20 MOA of slope
High quality target scope (10x is about the minimum)
Solidly mounted Prone length Bipod

Before last night I had not heard of the term F-AR15. I was planning to shoot F-TR Class with both my bolt gun and semi but this new class looks interesting.

I hope this article helps someone else.

Brian

 

[proneshooter]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Don't the current F/TR rules already cover the use of scoped, supported semi-auto rifles fired as single shots?

If so, what is the point of this, more fragmentation?

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

I respect your point of view, but I wouldn't choose to think of it as "fragmentation". In general, someone shooting a scoped AR15 in a typical F-Class midrange match will be giving up a lot to someone with a .308 bolt gun. That's not to say it can't be done, or done well, as it most certainly can be in the right hands. I would view it more as a way to give more shooters that might be interested in this type of competition a little more level playing field, particularly at the local level. There are an awful lot of people with AR15s that might have an interest F-Class, but I rarely see very many at matches. My guess is that it might have something to do with competing against bolt guns, although I could be mistaken. Having a separate event doesn't really seem like it would negatively impact other F-Class matches, as not that many show up at those with AR15s, at least where I shoot anyhow.

 

[proneshooter]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are an awful lot of people with AR15s that might have an interest F-Class, but I rarely see very many at matches. My guess is that it might have something to do with competing against bolt guns, although I could be mistaken. </div></div>
I think you are mistaken.

The dominance of the AR-15 match rifle in NRA highpower (a sport that used to be dominated by .308 bolt guns) is evidence enough that a properly built, barreled, and chambered .223 Rem AR target rifle has little to nothing to yield to the .308 Winchester regardless of the rifle that fires the larger bullet.

I do not like "starter" divisions. When I got into competitive rifle shooting I simply bought a Rock River National Match AR service rifle, a used coat, a sling, and some match ammo and jumped in the pool with the big boys to get my ass handed to me while I learned. No excuses.

IME, most new shooters show up with unsuitable rifles and never come back when reality does not match their image of themselves as steely eyed shooters. The few that come back humble and open to learning are most welcome.

If someone with a scope .223 AR wants to play in F class, he's more than welcome in F/TR. Pay the dues with shitty scores and learn your way up. That's how I roll.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Well, if you really believe that a typical AR15 isn't giving up a huge amount in almost every possible way to a .308 bolt gun, then I know for a fact that you're mistaken. This isn't about sling shooters or National Match rifles, it's about F-Class, which has never been dominated by AR15s for good reasons. It takes a very skilled shooter to excel with a .223, even more so with semi. The idea is to attract new shooters to the sport, which is good for everyone, regardless of whether they are in F-T/R, or some new offshoot of it. If you think it's a good learning experience for new shooters to get creamed the first few times they come out, I feel sorry for you. That is a perfect recipe to turn away people that might have otherwise have become solid members of the F-Class shooting community. It's attitudes like that that keep the sport from becoming something better. That's how I roll.

 

[proneshooter]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, if you really believe that a typical AR15 isn't giving up a huge amount in almost every possible way to a .308 bolt gun, then I know for a fact that you're mistaken. This isn't about sling shooters or National Match rifles, it's about F-Class, which has never been dominated by AR15s for good reasons.</div></div>

Hmmmm, OK......The reason you don't see a proliferation of ARs in F class is because, wait for it, there is no need for a repeater in F class.

Their accuracy, and the ballistics of the .223 Remington loaded with heavy match bullets has been conclusively established. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts.

New shooters WILL get creamed the first few times, no matter what the sport or the rules.

It's happened to me when I was new, and I've seen it happen to new shooters later, in every sport I've every played and that includes conventional highpower, conventional mid and long range, F class, tactical rifle, IDPA, skeet, and sporting clays. That's just the way it is.

Since evidently you were not looking for dissenting opinions, but validation of yours, I will take my leave.

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Funny. I've been thinking about building a Mk12-type rifle and shooting it in F-Class. And anyone who thinks a .223 can't be competitive is sorely mistaken - one of the guys I shoot with has won the state 1000-yard championship at least once with a .223. I've shot the rifle at 1k - it shoots like it has eyes.

 

[Killshot44]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

This is something the match director at Zia is doing. It isn't an NRA-supported class by any means.

One local match director has had a "F-Tactical" division for some time now. They shoot on the same F-class target but are shooting against each other with shorter-barreled, bolt-gun repeaters with no caliber restrictions.
It encourages greater participation - which is always a good thing.

If we had enough guys using AR's in F/TR we'd probably give 'em their own group, too.

 

[mjh30]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Gotta agree with Bob, anything that gets folks out shooting and participating at a match is a good thing.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

This thread was started about the idea of a new format for F-Class for AR15-type rifles, not a discussion of the merit of using .223 caliber in F-Class. The whole purpose of this would be to attract shooters at the local level that otherwise might not participate in regular F-T/R events. As I stated, I think it's a great idea because I believe there are a lot of people that might be interested in this type of competition knowing they'd be going up against similar setups, rather than a bunch of people with .308 F-T/R bolt guns.

I suspect there are plenty of people with a standard AR15-type rifle that might enjoy getting into competitive shooting at the local level, where they can actually show up with their rifle and some factory ammo and have a chance of doing reasonably well. Even at the local level, their chances are pretty slim under current F-Class rules and I believe they don't come because of that. I personally think it would be much better for the sport as a whole to be more inclusive, rather than exclusive.

As far as dissenting opinions, IMO that is what this forum is all about, I just don't care to have my words twisted to say something I never intended. What I said was that a typical AR15 is going to be giving up a lot against a .308 bolt gun in an F-Class competition. In general, that is a pretty accurate statement. A 77 or 80 gr projectile out of a shorter AR15 barrel just doesn't stack up ballistically against a heavier .308 load. This discussion wasn't about high level regional, state, or national competitions, it was focused on shooting at the local level. Of course there are numerous individuals that have done extremely well using a .223 in F-T/R, but a lot of that is the shooter, not any inherent advantage of the load itself. The 90s out of the right rifle are a different story, but my understanding is that they can be very difficult to load consistently. Besides which, how many people routinely show up at local F-Class competitions with a custom match grade AR15 shooting 90 gr handloads? Not many, and that was never what this topic was about, anyhow.

In any event, I've seen more than a few individuals show up for their first match with an average AR15 setup, and after doing very poorly compared to the bolt gun shooters using .308s, many never came back. That is the primary reason I think an event aimed at AR15-type rifles is a good idea. For what it's worth, I shot a 592-21X in my very first comp (3x20 @ 600 yd) using a .308 F-T/R bolt gun. That was good enough to win F-Class (Open/TR) outright, and was 5th overall. That may not be the norm, but it shows that it <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> happen. Having a separate event for AR15s would potentially give new shooters a much better chance to actually be competitive their first time out.

 

[biner626]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

It sounds like a good idea to me. My first match was with a AR15. My score was 517-4x and that did discourage me a bit. My first thought was more magnification and second buy a bolt action rifle. For those without the funds to go buy a bolt action rifle to compete, it may even the field a bit.
Since then, my wife now has a blueprinted 700 with 28" Krieger and a Sightron 10-50x60. I get her hand me downs unless she can't go shoot. The point being: Lots of folks out there who bought or assembled AR's are excluded from the sport.

 

[Denys]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

I'm actually one of the very few people who has extensive experience shooting an AR-15 in F-Class competition, so I think my opinion counts for something since it's based on real experience.

The rules listed above and at the link make this unworkable with other F-class shooters and actualy violate the rules of highpower, if these new rules are enforeced.

I'm talking about the magazine usage. Shooting from a magazine that has more than one round in it violates the "one round load" rule. Swapping magazines on an AR-15 while prone gets old real fast, and even if you had 20 magazines with one round in each of them, it's still a pain. Why won't you let me use my Bobsled?

Also, people will have a tendency of fiddling with their trigger in order to make it "light." That's a recipe for a spontaneous magazine discharge and that would cause the other shooters to require an underwear change when it occurs on the line because mags are required.

The longest bullet that can be loaded to maglength is the 77SMK and equivalent. That bullet will not make the 1000 yards, so this is limited to 600 yards. And even then, the 77SMK is not really suited to the F-class targets especially if the wind blows a little bit.

In my opinion all we are doing here is dumbing down and even corrupting rules to let just anyone play. The F-class center is not suited to stock ARs shooting maglength ammo, they would be better off shooting the regular high power targets.

I'm wondering if the 3gun matches will create a new class so I can use my 17.5 pound F-T/R single shot rifle instead of an AR with a 30 round mag.

 

[XTR]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm wondering if the 3gun matches will create a new class so I can use my 17.5 pound F-T/R single shot rifle instead of an AR with a 30 round mag. </div></div>

 

[proneshooter]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion all we are doing here is dumbing down and even corrupting rules to let just anyone play. The F-class center is not suited to stock ARs shooting maglength ammo, they would be better off shooting the regular high power targets.</div></div>
Thank you. Nice to see someone else getting this.

 

[Denys]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

I think most (not all) everyone else gets it and sees it for the misguided idea that it is. We all agree that it is "a good thing" to have more participants, I just happen to think that it's not "a good thing" to corrupt the sport in order to accomplish that.

So, after the F-AR15, we will have the F-Lever action and the F-SKS. Personally, I'm looking forward to watching an F-Muzzleloader competition; the single load slow fire won't be a problem, but the prone bit will get old.

 

[texasbrian66]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

I have a bolt 308 and a AR223. I thought that I'd. like to try shooting FTR in the future but you guys do not sound like a welcoming bunch of shooters. That is just one mans observation and I hope that I am wrong. I have read sever times that people want the sport to grow but have not read much that may accomplish it I have read alot of comments poking fun at someone trying to grow the sport
and one comment poking fun at first time FTR shooters. IMHO if someone did want to help grow the sport this may be a nice place to start. I Imagin that you have discouraged more than one potential FTR shooter.

No offense intended
Brian

 

[Denys]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

So? What is the problem? If you want to use your AR in .223 in F-T/R, go ahead and do that. I can even provide you with tons of information about it and what you need to have fun.

If you want to use your bolt .308, that's fine also, I (and many others here) will be more than happy to provide another ton of information.

For either rifle, you would need to provide the details, especially about barrel, twist, chamberring. Also, info on the riflescope would be good. And finally, tell us about your handloading capabilities.

Are you looking at shooting at mid-range (300-600) or long range (800-1000) or perhaps both?

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think most (not all) everyone else gets it and sees it for the misguided idea that it is. We all agree that it is "a good thing" to have more participants, I just happen to think that it's not "a good thing" to corrupt the sport in order to accomplish that.

<span style="color: #FF0000">So, after the F-AR15, we will have the F-Lever action and the F-SKS. Personally, I'm looking forward to watching an F-Muzzleloader competition; the single load slow fire won't be a problem, but the prone bit will get old.</span> </div></div>

Those are not bad ideas there, Denys. After reading that, now I'm thinking there might just be room for F-Class Shotgun...the fastest matches of all the F-Class variants. It could be shot at 50 yd using exactly 3 shots, 20 pellets per shotshell. Smallest group wins (LOL).

In all seriousness, I understand your dislike of the AR15-based F-Class idea. I personally like the idea of giving AR15 shooters a venue where they would be competing against other AR15 shooters in a midrange format. I think it would be something that might attract shooters that aren't currently participating. As far as your objections to it being a sub-discipline of F-Class, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not necessarily wed to the idea of it being part of F-Class, I don't really care one way or the other what classification it would fall into. Running it using similar targets and rules to F-Class, but as its own distinct shooting program would be fine IMO. I think it would become a very popular type of competition, regardless of the specific details of how it was implemented.

 

[Denys]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

You have to match the target to the capability of the rifle, distance and ammo. Making it impossible to get a decent score is not conducive to growing a sport. Making it too easy is also not a good idea.

Given the restrictions on the AR-15 and the ammo and use of magazine listed in the OP, I still maintain that F-class targets are not proper for that. If you allow me to use any AR that I want with any .223 ammo I can produce, then I can show you a few things. But immediately some people would cry foul, especially the 55gr surplus ammo crowd with their 16 inch barrels who want to compete at 300 or 600 yards.

If you want to start a class totally dedicated to AR with 24 inch barrels or shorter and with maglength ammo, then let them use the regular targets and don't make it a subset of F-class.

Because of the magazine requirement, they will not be able to compete alongside F-classers anyway, so they will need their own venue. No need to call it F-class, I would suggest Why-class.

 

[pjparker]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> No need to call it F-class, I would suggest Why-class. </div></div>

Denys - how do you always manage to be so eloquent?

Paul

 

[no1special]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

after a couple of false starts here goes. this smacks of many local sports in that everyone gets an "award",no scores taken, and no one looses. feelings...nothing more than feelings. i remember my first years of service rifle. i was handed my butt on a regular basis. still am, though not as badly. those that really want to compete will. those with fragile egos move on. i have, many times, tried to get the "ar" gang to shoot a practice with me at 300 yards. show them the target and gonzo. back to the man sized at 25 yards. those that want to "play" will, those that don't, won't. change the "rules" to suit them and another excuse will be found.

 

[Denys]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pjparker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> No need to call it F-class, I would suggest Why-class. </div></div>

Denys - how do you always manage to be so eloquent?

Paul </div></div>

It's a gift, Paul. I endeavor to not be excessively parsimonious with my witticism; I like to share.

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: truman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">those that want to "play" will, those that don't, won't. change the "rules" to suit them and another excuse will be found. </div></div>

This is what I have thought all along. At least 2-3 times a year, there is a suggestion to "improve" F-Class or add another category to attract new shooters. Guess what? F-Class is the fastest growing shooting sport in the world. The reason? New shooters are trying it in leaps and bounds and they aren't quitting. It's addicting and keeps shooters coming back for more. Absolutely nothing needs to be changed. When the misconception that "F" stands for factory, and "T" stands for tactical finally goes away, we will all be better off. I even heard that crap at Camp Perry this year from the announcer.

There are tons of different disciplines that one can choose to shoot. If the rules of a particular discipline don't suit you, look at another one.

 

[XTR]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There are tons of different disciplines that one can choose to shoot. If the rules of a particular discipline don't suit you, look at another one. </div></div>

This is the part people miss; however, the reason that they want to come play in F class is that it is gaining in visibility and popularity.

 

[texasbrian66]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Denys

I want to shoot both mid-range (300-600) and long range (800-1000). I want to see what both guns are capable of at different distances with proper loads.

The AR is a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter 5.56 /.223. The barrel is a E.R. Shaw 24" stainless match grade and measures .92" at muzzle with a 1:8 twist. I had a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50 but will soon replace it with a Sightron SIII SS 1050X60 LR TD on top a EGW 20 MOA Elevated 3" Extended Riser Mount with burris Zee rings. I will use an EGW Bag-Rider System when on the bench or a Harris bipod with rear rider when prone.

The bolt is a Savage model 10FCP HS Precision law enforcement series.308. It has a 24" heavy free float button-rifled barrel with a 1:10 twist. The stock is a synthetic HS Precision with a molded alloy bedding system. It has the adjustable AccuTrigger, but I think that is going to be replaced. It has a Sightron SIII SS 1050X60 LR TD mounted on top with an EGW base and Zee rings. I use a Harris bipod.

I will reload with a Hornady SS and progressive press but will use the SS for quality loads. I will use RCBS 10/10 scale and Redding tickler. I have reloader 15 and, Varget.

I am doing this for fun and would appreciate any advice you or others have to offer.

Thanks
Brian

 

[Denys]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Both of the rifles you describe should do an adequate job at mid-range, especially at 300 and 500 yards. As the range increases, muzzle velocity becomes important to keep the bullet going fast through the wind and other conditions. 600 yards should be no problems with the proper bullets, but I would not waste too much time trying for 1000 yards.

The AR actually should do very well in F-T/R due to the heavy, fast twist barrel. I would look at 80 grain bullets from JLK, Berger and in a pinch, Sierra. Single load, they will do fine. My AR has a 26 inch Krieger and I push moly-coated 80gr JLK at 2850fps from 300 yards to 1000 yards. I actually stopped using it at 1000 yards and now only shoot it to 600. I also have a carrier weight system to tame the BCG, a PRS stock, a Geisele match trigger and a few other adjustments. It currently wears a Weaver T-36 but will be going to a Nikon 6.5-20X shortly as I intend to use it in other venues.

Your Savage is fine, again for the mid-range and a 1:10 twist will allow you to shoot up to 230gr bullets out of it. I have two F-T/R bolt .308s and they both have a 32 inch barrel; one is a Broughton and the other is a Krieger. They both have very tight chambers with long throats. I shoot the 180gr JLK LBT out of both, loaded to just a shade under 3.000 inch. I like long barrels to get me the best possible muzzle velocity. I get about 2850fps out of either one with my 180 bullets.

I would avoid the Harris bipod like the plague for F-class. For something in that price range, look at the Versapod, especially the canted one. It minimizes rifle hop due to its cantilevered design. You will only be fighting with the Harris; we are competitors, not snipers. Read up on bipods for good ones, I have two Sinclairs, a gen2 and a gen3. I am not familiar with the EGW bag-rider thing, I currently use a Protektor with heavy sand.

Handloading for competition is a whole new enterprise and definitely not the domain of a progressive press. I use a Redding T-7 turret with Redding dies. My scale is a Chargemaster and it works very well with the Varget powder that I use. If you get serious about this, you will drop kick that 10/10 scale and trickler very quickly.

I do this for fun also, and I keep telling myself that when it starts to look like work.

 

[SIE107]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

If you want to do something different, start shooting with irons on your F/Class gun.

 

[texasbrian66]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

If my vision was still 20/20 I would not given up the irons. I think that the 223 wil be challanging enough for me.

 

[SIE107]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Oh it is a challage, but it is some much fun when ya kick butt with it!

 

[texasbrian66]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Sid 107
I an just taking baby steps but it would be nice to do it and do it well. I always like swimming aginst the tide.
Brian

 

[Denys]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

Well, you're in for a treat then. Just make sure you don't gulp in too much water.

 

[texasbrian66]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

HaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaa I probably will.

I was looking into bipods the other night and I read good things about the Sinclair gen 3. What others would you recommend?

Brian

 

[Denys]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

I only recommend things that I use or have used. The Versapod did a good job for a while, but the Sinclairs (gen 2 and gen 3) are much superior for F-T/R. I like the Gen 3 and have no plans or desire to change. I still have my Gen 2 and will not part with it.

I have learned to use these two bipods and I am familiar with them. I suspect that if I had selected another one of the F-T/R bipods, I would probably recommend it after getting familiar with it. So it really does boil down to what works for you or perhaps more accurately, what you have made work for you.

I think the reason I like the Sinclairs is the cradle-like method of holding the rifle between two posts as opposed to putting in on top of something.

We shall see what the future holds.

 

[texasbrian66]

Re: F-Class Centerfire Prone and the F-AR15 Rifle

I would want to sell the Versapod eventually but the Sinclairlooks like a keeper. I saw a very good review video for the Sinclair Gen3. I also like how the bipod attached to the gun.

Thanks
Brian