Range Report Fastest barrel
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Re: Fastest barrel
No two barrels are alike. You could purchase 10 from the same company and each one will be different.
No two barrels are alike. You could purchase 10 from the same company and each one will be different.
Re: Fastest barrel
Given modern metallurgy and precision machines
the variation is small
What i,m asking is which barrel make typically provides highest
fps for given load
Guys here go thru alot barrels just looking for what they seen from barrel to barrel
Given modern metallurgy and precision machines
the variation is small
What i,m asking is which barrel make typically provides highest
fps for given load
Guys here go thru alot barrels just looking for what they seen from barrel to barrel
Re: Fastest barrel
My last 2 barrels have been Broughton 5C very fast compared to the rifled barrels i had previously run Rock and bartlien
I hear good things about Schneider barrels esp the price
which was $235 last time i ck,d
Tubbs uses them exclusively
I,m sure the cut rifle guys will chime in, but i do hate waiting on barrels. Both my Broughtons ran about 90days so hoping i can find something via bugholes etc in stock
6.5cal barrels dont sit around long
My last 2 barrels have been Broughton 5C very fast compared to the rifled barrels i had previously run Rock and bartlien
I hear good things about Schneider barrels esp the price
which was $235 last time i ck,d
Tubbs uses them exclusively
I,m sure the cut rifle guys will chime in, but i do hate waiting on barrels. Both my Broughtons ran about 90days so hoping i can find something via bugholes etc in stock
6.5cal barrels dont sit around long
Re: Fastest barrel
I have a Rock 5R in 243 that they had done with the Nitride coating that runs as fast as anything I've ever seen.....
I may have been the luckiest guy on earth but mine runs a 105 AMAX at 3147 avg from a 26 inch barrel with 43.7 of RL22.
Whether or not the coating made it faster or I got a great barrel I do not know, but I know 33 up to 1200 is pretty magic for any 243Win I've ever seen.
We chronoed the Winchester Supreme 55's (the stuff with the combined technologies coated bullets) at just a tick under 4K, and it shot just a bit under 1/3 minute at 300.
I'd love to try one( a Rock Creek barrel) in a 13 twist with the 155's in a Palma gun, but that's just one guy's experience.
sean
sean
I have a Rock 5R in 243 that they had done with the Nitride coating that runs as fast as anything I've ever seen.....
I may have been the luckiest guy on earth but mine runs a 105 AMAX at 3147 avg from a 26 inch barrel with 43.7 of RL22.
Whether or not the coating made it faster or I got a great barrel I do not know, but I know 33 up to 1200 is pretty magic for any 243Win I've ever seen.
We chronoed the Winchester Supreme 55's (the stuff with the combined technologies coated bullets) at just a tick under 4K, and it shot just a bit under 1/3 minute at 300.
I'd love to try one( a Rock Creek barrel) in a 13 twist with the 155's in a Palma gun, but that's just one guy's experience.
sean
sean
Re: Fastest barrel
Travis at Rbros told me that generally speaking he was finding that the Broughton barrels were a little faster than average. Not sure if it still holds true.
The edge he built for me was +/- 40 fps faster on the chrono than average.
Travis at Rbros told me that generally speaking he was finding that the Broughton barrels were a little faster than average. Not sure if it still holds true.
The edge he built for me was +/- 40 fps faster on the chrono than average.
Re: Fastest barrel
My Schneider 5P consistantly the fastest barrel I have there is a thead if you search Schneider were others had simular experience.
My Schneider 5P consistantly the fastest barrel I have there is a thead if you search Schneider were others had simular experience.
Re: Fastest barrel
My Obey seems to be blistering in a tight .308 My sons Bartline runs the same vel as my TRG but it has 2" less barrel with 1 full g less Varget.
My Obey seems to be blistering in a tight .308 My sons Bartline runs the same vel as my TRG but it has 2" less barrel with 1 full g less Varget.
Re: Fastest barrel
My Bartlein(6.5) has been fast for its length. I have always heard broughton 5c's are fast.
My Bartlein(6.5) has been fast for its length. I have always heard broughton 5c's are fast.
Re: Fastest barrel
You guys are not comparing apples and apples!!!!!! I don't care if it's brand BR,BK, K, R, S, Y, Z and Q!
Yes barrels from the same maker can vary in a given batch of barrels. Regardless of the maker.
There are other variables that effect velocity.
What chamber reamer and throat was used?
Here is the biggest one and why you cannot compare one brand to the next.
Bore and groove sizes!
Typically looser is faster, tighter is slower. Again I say typically! There are other factors.
If you have brand X and the groove size is .0005" bigger than brand Z my money would be on brand X being faster with the same given load, at the same given pressure. Now throw another variable in it. Different number of grooves or same number of grooves but different groove widths. This also will effect the surface area of the bore and be another variable to contend with.
One branch of Service ran a test about 3 years ago with barrels from several makers. Our barrels came in second for velocity (around 30-50fps behind the fastest other barrels made by a different maker) but accuracy wise ours out shot all others. The other barrel makers barrels had a different bore and groove size than ours.
The only way you could do a proper test is to get a couple of barrels from one barrel maker and a couple from another. All of the barrels should be made to the same bore size and same groove size. Same twist, chambered with the same reamer and the same loads run thru them. It would be nice if it's the same type of steel preferably out of the same lot as well.
If the bore or groove size varies this will effect the total bore surface area and will have an effect on pressure which in turn will have an effect on velocity.
If they are not made to all the same spec. and measure the same your data is going to be flawed.
Companies we make ammunition test barrels for and data and feedback we get back consistently shows from one barrel to the next the cut rifled barrels produce the more consistent results/data. So it's not just me saying bla bla bla.
You get more variance in bore size with a button barrel than a cut barrel. Why do you think some button makers offer different grades of barrels? Your paying for uniformity of bore size in some cases. The more variance in bore sizes will have more of an effect on pressures and velocity.
A few years ago George had a barrel on one of his guns from a different maker. From what he told me he was blowing 50% of his primers. I know that barrel maker consistently makes a tighter bore and groove size than ours (6mm cal.). He asked me what he should do as he didn't want to redo all the ammo etc...I told him will make him a barrel with a standard bore size and will make the grooves +.0005" (max. dimension) instead of making it at the min. dimension and then lap it. Guess what. It solved his pressure problem, no more blowing primers and still had cranking velocity and the gun accuracy wise just pounded the targets.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
You guys are not comparing apples and apples!!!!!! I don't care if it's brand BR,BK, K, R, S, Y, Z and Q!
Yes barrels from the same maker can vary in a given batch of barrels. Regardless of the maker.
There are other variables that effect velocity.
What chamber reamer and throat was used?
Here is the biggest one and why you cannot compare one brand to the next.
Bore and groove sizes!
Typically looser is faster, tighter is slower. Again I say typically! There are other factors.
If you have brand X and the groove size is .0005" bigger than brand Z my money would be on brand X being faster with the same given load, at the same given pressure. Now throw another variable in it. Different number of grooves or same number of grooves but different groove widths. This also will effect the surface area of the bore and be another variable to contend with.
One branch of Service ran a test about 3 years ago with barrels from several makers. Our barrels came in second for velocity (around 30-50fps behind the fastest other barrels made by a different maker) but accuracy wise ours out shot all others. The other barrel makers barrels had a different bore and groove size than ours.
The only way you could do a proper test is to get a couple of barrels from one barrel maker and a couple from another. All of the barrels should be made to the same bore size and same groove size. Same twist, chambered with the same reamer and the same loads run thru them. It would be nice if it's the same type of steel preferably out of the same lot as well.
If the bore or groove size varies this will effect the total bore surface area and will have an effect on pressure which in turn will have an effect on velocity.
If they are not made to all the same spec. and measure the same your data is going to be flawed.
Companies we make ammunition test barrels for and data and feedback we get back consistently shows from one barrel to the next the cut rifled barrels produce the more consistent results/data. So it's not just me saying bla bla bla.
You get more variance in bore size with a button barrel than a cut barrel. Why do you think some button makers offer different grades of barrels? Your paying for uniformity of bore size in some cases. The more variance in bore sizes will have more of an effect on pressures and velocity.
A few years ago George had a barrel on one of his guns from a different maker. From what he told me he was blowing 50% of his primers. I know that barrel maker consistently makes a tighter bore and groove size than ours (6mm cal.). He asked me what he should do as he didn't want to redo all the ammo etc...I told him will make him a barrel with a standard bore size and will make the grooves +.0005" (max. dimension) instead of making it at the min. dimension and then lap it. Guess what. It solved his pressure problem, no more blowing primers and still had cranking velocity and the gun accuracy wise just pounded the targets.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Fastest barrel
I was always under the impression that a tight barrel allowed for higher pressures so higher velocities, but I assume from your testing it's not so, resistance or lack of it in the bore size is what makes it faster?
I was always under the impression that a tight barrel allowed for higher pressures so higher velocities, but I assume from your testing it's not so, resistance or lack of it in the bore size is what makes it faster?
Re: Fastest barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was always under the impression that a tight barrel allowed for higher pressures so higher velocities, but I assume from your testing it's not so, resistance or lack of it in the bore size is what makes it faster? </div></div>
Again which size of the bore are you referring to? The actual bore (tops of the lands) or the groove size? What's the groove width? All variables bud! Changing the groove size will have a greater impact then changing the bore size.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was always under the impression that a tight barrel allowed for higher pressures so higher velocities, but I assume from your testing it's not so, resistance or lack of it in the bore size is what makes it faster? </div></div>
Again which size of the bore are you referring to? The actual bore (tops of the lands) or the groove size? What's the groove width? All variables bud! Changing the groove size will have a greater impact then changing the bore size.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Fastest barrel
Sorry, I'm a carpenter not a barrel maker! I assume surface area was surface area when it came to what drags on the bullet no matter if is was the top of the groove or the bottom, but I do see now the width of the groove can change how much of the bullet is being compressed thus causing more friction. Thanks, I just usually fit the load to the barrel and go shoot!
Sorry, I'm a carpenter not a barrel maker! I assume surface area was surface area when it came to what drags on the bullet no matter if is was the top of the groove or the bottom, but I do see now the width of the groove can change how much of the bullet is being compressed thus causing more friction. Thanks, I just usually fit the load to the barrel and go shoot!
Re: Fastest barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, I'm a carpenter not a barrel maker! I assume surface area was surface area when it came to what drags on the bullet no matter if is was the top of the groove or the bottom, but I do see now the width of the groove can change how much of the bullet is being compressed thus causing more friction. Thanks, I just usually fit the load to the barrel and go shoot! </div></div>
No sorry needed bud! The surface area of the bore means the whole surface area. Lands and grooves.
Generally the grooves are wider. The lands do the driving of the bullet.
That's the smartest thing to do. Get your load out you normally use and start there. If you need to made some adjustments then do that.
Some guys worry to much about velocity. A 100fps. variation is considered normal and a 100fps isn't going to help you win the match or lose it per say.
Later, Frank
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, I'm a carpenter not a barrel maker! I assume surface area was surface area when it came to what drags on the bullet no matter if is was the top of the groove or the bottom, but I do see now the width of the groove can change how much of the bullet is being compressed thus causing more friction. Thanks, I just usually fit the load to the barrel and go shoot! </div></div>
No sorry needed bud! The surface area of the bore means the whole surface area. Lands and grooves.
Generally the grooves are wider. The lands do the driving of the bullet.
That's the smartest thing to do. Get your load out you normally use and start there. If you need to made some adjustments then do that.
Some guys worry to much about velocity. A 100fps. variation is considered normal and a 100fps isn't going to help you win the match or lose it per say.
Later, Frank
Re: Fastest barrel
I'm just worried how to get my match 243 barrel to last 2000 rounds! I'm about 750 into it and so far so good. I put about 3500 on my 260 before I built the 243 and it still shoots pretty good, not like when it was new but not bad.
I'm just worried how to get my match 243 barrel to last 2000 rounds! I'm about 750 into it and so far so good. I put about 3500 on my 260 before I built the 243 and it still shoots pretty good, not like when it was new but not bad.
Re: Fastest barrel
Short neat article on 6br.com about a tube gun with a Broughton barrel on it in the daily bulletin on tube guns. While very accurate they are disappointed in the velocity of the bullets coming out. Approx. 50-100fps of where they should be. That being said I go back to what I said earlier. A 100fps. variation is really nothing.
Also I go back to what I said as well. When you guys are comparing velocity from one barrel to the next are they the same bore size? Groove size? Groove width? Same chamber reamer used? Same barrel length? Same lot of powder, primers, bullets etc.....?
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Short neat article on 6br.com about a tube gun with a Broughton barrel on it in the daily bulletin on tube guns. While very accurate they are disappointed in the velocity of the bullets coming out. Approx. 50-100fps of where they should be. That being said I go back to what I said earlier. A 100fps. variation is really nothing.
Also I go back to what I said as well. When you guys are comparing velocity from one barrel to the next are they the same bore size? Groove size? Groove width? Same chamber reamer used? Same barrel length? Same lot of powder, primers, bullets etc.....?
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: Fastest barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Short neat article on 6br.com about a tube gun with a Broughton barrel on it in the daily bulletin on tube guns. While very accurate they are disappointed in the velocity of the bullets coming out. Approx. 50-100fps of where they should be. That being said I go back to what I said earlier. A 100fps. variation is really nothing.
Also I go back to what I said as well. When you guys are comparing velocity from one barrel to the next are they the same bore size? Groove size? Groove width? Same chamber reamer used? Same barrel length? Same lot of powder, primers, bullets etc.....?
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
Frank,
Everything you said so far makes sense. but I beg to differ with you on velocity. If I build a 7mm saum and it is shooting 100fps slower than any one elses, or 100fps below published data, in my book I'm shooting a 7mm-08. so what was the purpose of building the saum?
And for winning a match, I'll take the the extra 100fps any day, it might man the lower right hit on a 8" steel target. A hit is a hit, not where it hit on the target.
I do agree that accurate is best, I have 2 slow Brux barrels, but they shoot extremely well, so I can live with the speed. I also have a couple Krieger's, medium velocity, but they shoot too.
All said, I would like them to be faster, but no go. Please don't give suggestions on load combo's either, I've tried it all.
Thanks,
Miles
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Short neat article on 6br.com about a tube gun with a Broughton barrel on it in the daily bulletin on tube guns. While very accurate they are disappointed in the velocity of the bullets coming out. Approx. 50-100fps of where they should be. That being said I go back to what I said earlier. A 100fps. variation is really nothing.
Also I go back to what I said as well. When you guys are comparing velocity from one barrel to the next are they the same bore size? Groove size? Groove width? Same chamber reamer used? Same barrel length? Same lot of powder, primers, bullets etc.....?
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
Frank,
Everything you said so far makes sense. but I beg to differ with you on velocity. If I build a 7mm saum and it is shooting 100fps slower than any one elses, or 100fps below published data, in my book I'm shooting a 7mm-08. so what was the purpose of building the saum?
And for winning a match, I'll take the the extra 100fps any day, it might man the lower right hit on a 8" steel target. A hit is a hit, not where it hit on the target.
I do agree that accurate is best, I have 2 slow Brux barrels, but they shoot extremely well, so I can live with the speed. I also have a couple Krieger's, medium velocity, but they shoot too.
All said, I would like them to be faster, but no go. Please don't give suggestions on load combo's either, I've tried it all.
Thanks,
Miles
Re: Fastest barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Same chamber reamer used? </div></div>
I can tell you this has a lot to do with it. I had my 6.5 Creedmoor set back from 28" to 26.5" at GAP. They used the same chamber reamer they did 4 years earlier when they got it to build our rifles but the reamer has been sharpened a few times since then. My velocity jumped 80 fps with the same factory loads from the same lot of ammo with the barrel 1.5" shorter. The reamer being slightly smaller from sharpening did effect velocity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Same chamber reamer used? </div></div>
I can tell you this has a lot to do with it. I had my 6.5 Creedmoor set back from 28" to 26.5" at GAP. They used the same chamber reamer they did 4 years earlier when they got it to build our rifles but the reamer has been sharpened a few times since then. My velocity jumped 80 fps with the same factory loads from the same lot of ammo with the barrel 1.5" shorter. The reamer being slightly smaller from sharpening did effect velocity.
Re: Fastest barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Some guys worry to much about velocity. A 100fps. variation is considered normal and a 100fps isn't going to help you win the match or lose it per say.
Later, Frank</div></div>
This is my view exactly. It won't help, but the loads that provide it will burn out the barrel sooner.
Magnums are great for anchoring a big animal, or reaching out supersonic to distances that other chamberings, i.e. a 7-08, cannot reach supersonic.
But Magnums also have bad habits. They beat up guns and they beat up shooters. Neither of these is helpful for sustained fire marksmanship, which is what a match rifle must, first and foremost, achieve successfully.
The idea that a faster bullet will help scores is a fallacy. A marginal wind call is just as detrimental to a higher velocity as it is to a lower one.
Believing the fallacy assumes velocity is a crutch. It isn't, and what the shooter needs to do is understand that as long as the velocity is sufficient to get the bullet to the distance supersonic, it is the wind skills that get it into the X.
The successful LR shooter understands that the wind is not an opponent blowing the bullet off the target, but is an ally, blowing it onto the target. They need to engage the wind as a necessary part of a successful targeting technique, and not as a detriment.
In essence, Ya gotta bend it like Beckham.
Adding velocity atop that simply ensures that the shooter will need to rebarrel sooner, will have a hotter barrel with the inevitible accompanying accuracy degradation as the match progresses, and will be feeling more fatigue in the later stages of their match. You can't win if your rifle is part of the problem.
You can improve, for instance, on the 175gr .308 by either adding energy, ala upgrading to a .30 caliber Magnum, or by using the existing capacity to drive a narrrower, lighter bullet with a higher BC, ala rebarreling to a .260 with 140's.
I'd prefer the .260 for the reasons I give above.
Greg
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Some guys worry to much about velocity. A 100fps. variation is considered normal and a 100fps isn't going to help you win the match or lose it per say.
Later, Frank</div></div>
This is my view exactly. It won't help, but the loads that provide it will burn out the barrel sooner.
Magnums are great for anchoring a big animal, or reaching out supersonic to distances that other chamberings, i.e. a 7-08, cannot reach supersonic.
But Magnums also have bad habits. They beat up guns and they beat up shooters. Neither of these is helpful for sustained fire marksmanship, which is what a match rifle must, first and foremost, achieve successfully.
The idea that a faster bullet will help scores is a fallacy. A marginal wind call is just as detrimental to a higher velocity as it is to a lower one.
Believing the fallacy assumes velocity is a crutch. It isn't, and what the shooter needs to do is understand that as long as the velocity is sufficient to get the bullet to the distance supersonic, it is the wind skills that get it into the X.
The successful LR shooter understands that the wind is not an opponent blowing the bullet off the target, but is an ally, blowing it onto the target. They need to engage the wind as a necessary part of a successful targeting technique, and not as a detriment.
In essence, Ya gotta bend it like Beckham.
Adding velocity atop that simply ensures that the shooter will need to rebarrel sooner, will have a hotter barrel with the inevitible accompanying accuracy degradation as the match progresses, and will be feeling more fatigue in the later stages of their match. You can't win if your rifle is part of the problem.
You can improve, for instance, on the 175gr .308 by either adding energy, ala upgrading to a .30 caliber Magnum, or by using the existing capacity to drive a narrrower, lighter bullet with a higher BC, ala rebarreling to a .260 with 140's.
I'd prefer the .260 for the reasons I give above.
Greg
Re: Fastest barrel
My Broughton 5c is faster than expected. Ran 300 grain bullets to 3100 fps with no pressure. 32" barrel in 338 Lapua Improved.
My Broughton 5c is faster than expected. Ran 300 grain bullets to 3100 fps with no pressure. 32" barrel in 338 Lapua Improved.
Re: Fastest barrel
From my perspective
100fps is a huge deal, i typically run 20" barrel
so i,m hampered by barrel length, i look for every advantage i can to increase MV
So if barrel A is typically found to be faster i,m going to use it along with a high energy powder ie RE17
As stated by several in thread, Broughton 5C typically run faster
and in my limited use of 3 major manufacturers i have found this holds true as far as running a 20" goes
I had a rock barrel in 308 many yrs ago
26" 155 scenar 3050fps over a 35p chrono
My bartlien 31" 6.5x47, ran 140vld @ 2973fps and was a hammer
15x 298 @ 500 was its average, another shooter had to have it and paid for that privilege
Now if Frank can spec a a barrel and ensure it will match or better my 5C, 6.5x47, 20" 123scenar 3023fps. If barrel fails to meet performance goal then reimburse me cost of barrel. I would be happy to buy one from him, if not then based on previous performance another 5C will be ordered pending Tims input on melonite. Sure there is an off chance i may get a slow one from Tim but that applies to any manufacturer. My last 2 broughtons both were typical of others findings ... Faster then expected.
In my application velocity is a concern and i use everything that will yield an advantage, barrels are not cheap and if the perception is brand A is typically faster than brand B, then brand A will get my $$. I put a good deal of time into researching issue before buying the broughton, regardless of manufacturer profiled ie 5R, 5C or 5P barrels seem to run higher velocity.
Empirical proof ... NO
But until the day i can buy a barrel that is guaranteed to make X velocity from given load @ X barrel length, to be replaced by manufacturer if it fails to meet spec,d goal at no cost to me.
I,m left with basing decision on findings of others and my own personal experience.
Melonite treated barrels are reporting very real gains in velocity as compared to fps achieved prior to treatment from same barrel. My next barrel will for sure get Melonite treatment.
Not here bashing any barrel maker but there also numerous articles on 6br supporting 5C barrels are faster than average, look hard enough and i,m sure you will find a slower than average from every manufacturer. If looked hard enough fairly sure i could find something Stating a Bartlien barrel was slower then average thou that is not intent of post
General consensus vs single report
From my perspective
100fps is a huge deal, i typically run 20" barrel
so i,m hampered by barrel length, i look for every advantage i can to increase MV
So if barrel A is typically found to be faster i,m going to use it along with a high energy powder ie RE17
As stated by several in thread, Broughton 5C typically run faster
and in my limited use of 3 major manufacturers i have found this holds true as far as running a 20" goes
I had a rock barrel in 308 many yrs ago
26" 155 scenar 3050fps over a 35p chrono
My bartlien 31" 6.5x47, ran 140vld @ 2973fps and was a hammer
15x 298 @ 500 was its average, another shooter had to have it and paid for that privilege
Now if Frank can spec a a barrel and ensure it will match or better my 5C, 6.5x47, 20" 123scenar 3023fps. If barrel fails to meet performance goal then reimburse me cost of barrel. I would be happy to buy one from him, if not then based on previous performance another 5C will be ordered pending Tims input on melonite. Sure there is an off chance i may get a slow one from Tim but that applies to any manufacturer. My last 2 broughtons both were typical of others findings ... Faster then expected.
In my application velocity is a concern and i use everything that will yield an advantage, barrels are not cheap and if the perception is brand A is typically faster than brand B, then brand A will get my $$. I put a good deal of time into researching issue before buying the broughton, regardless of manufacturer profiled ie 5R, 5C or 5P barrels seem to run higher velocity.
Empirical proof ... NO
But until the day i can buy a barrel that is guaranteed to make X velocity from given load @ X barrel length, to be replaced by manufacturer if it fails to meet spec,d goal at no cost to me.
I,m left with basing decision on findings of others and my own personal experience.
Melonite treated barrels are reporting very real gains in velocity as compared to fps achieved prior to treatment from same barrel. My next barrel will for sure get Melonite treatment.
Not here bashing any barrel maker but there also numerous articles on 6br supporting 5C barrels are faster than average, look hard enough and i,m sure you will find a slower than average from every manufacturer. If looked hard enough fairly sure i could find something Stating a Bartlien barrel was slower then average thou that is not intent of post
General consensus vs single report
Re: Fastest barrel
Hey Karl! No offense or bashing taken man!
I'm curious if Tim at Broughton if you buy a barrel from him and it doesn't meet the velocity someone specs. will he make you a new barrel or refund your money?
Melonite? I've heard this claim as well that after Melonite the loads pick up velocity.
I just had a .260 Rem. barrel done and it's on my rifle. I chronographed 3 different loads and had 29 rounds on the barrel before I sent it out. When it came back from Melonite I chrono'd more loads thru it. Same lot of powder, bullets, primers etc...and I had no increase in velocity. The barrel now has around 200 rounds on it and I'm going to check it again here the next time I get to the range.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Hey Karl! No offense or bashing taken man!
I'm curious if Tim at Broughton if you buy a barrel from him and it doesn't meet the velocity someone specs. will he make you a new barrel or refund your money?
Melonite? I've heard this claim as well that after Melonite the loads pick up velocity.
I just had a .260 Rem. barrel done and it's on my rifle. I chronographed 3 different loads and had 29 rounds on the barrel before I sent it out. When it came back from Melonite I chrono'd more loads thru it. Same lot of powder, bullets, primers etc...and I had no increase in velocity. The barrel now has around 200 rounds on it and I'm going to check it again here the next time I get to the range.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Fastest barrel
A couple of question that no one is answering on this thread needs to be looked at.
If you feel you got a barrel that is faster than another barrel I don't care if it's from the same maker or not.....
Have you had the bore and groove sizes measured? What did the groove width measure? If so can you list what the bore and groove sizes are from one barrel to the next? Who measured the barrel? Same barrel maker? Different barrel maker? If not and you measured it yourself don't tell me that you pushed a lead slug down the barrel and measured it with a dial caliper. Your readings will not be accurate.
Also like Robo! said and I posted earlier. Same chamber reamer used in one barrel to the next? Has the reamer been sharpened at all?
There are a lot of variables and you need to know what they are and record your data etc...
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
A couple of question that no one is answering on this thread needs to be looked at.
If you feel you got a barrel that is faster than another barrel I don't care if it's from the same maker or not.....
Have you had the bore and groove sizes measured? What did the groove width measure? If so can you list what the bore and groove sizes are from one barrel to the next? Who measured the barrel? Same barrel maker? Different barrel maker? If not and you measured it yourself don't tell me that you pushed a lead slug down the barrel and measured it with a dial caliper. Your readings will not be accurate.
Also like Robo! said and I posted earlier. Same chamber reamer used in one barrel to the next? Has the reamer been sharpened at all?
There are a lot of variables and you need to know what they are and record your data etc...
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Fastest barrel
Frank
I alike every one else have zero idea how barrel will perform until i shoot it
I do wish there was some kind of performance guarantee but as you know chamber can affect fps, so should barrel maker be responsible for bad chamber ... NO
So its kinda a hope pray thing not ideal but it is what it is, barrels not being cheap by the time its had smith do his thing.
So like many i,m left with making a decision based others opinion and my personal experience, given quality of top makers if brand A in general from user reports is faster why give up an advantage in fps, as my prime rig runs a 20" barrel I look for every advantage in fps. I have no loyalty to any brand nor do i buy into the cut is better than button, if button barrels are so inconsistent Mr Tubbs has been extremely lucky over the yrs.
Now given your expertise in field
What specs would you recommend in one of your barrels that would more likely than not yield higher than average velocity
6.5x47
barrel will finish @ 20"
it will only run 123gr bullets
Frank
I alike every one else have zero idea how barrel will perform until i shoot it
I do wish there was some kind of performance guarantee but as you know chamber can affect fps, so should barrel maker be responsible for bad chamber ... NO
So its kinda a hope pray thing not ideal but it is what it is, barrels not being cheap by the time its had smith do his thing.
So like many i,m left with making a decision based others opinion and my personal experience, given quality of top makers if brand A in general from user reports is faster why give up an advantage in fps, as my prime rig runs a 20" barrel I look for every advantage in fps. I have no loyalty to any brand nor do i buy into the cut is better than button, if button barrels are so inconsistent Mr Tubbs has been extremely lucky over the yrs.
Now given your expertise in field
What specs would you recommend in one of your barrels that would more likely than not yield higher than average velocity
6.5x47
barrel will finish @ 20"
it will only run 123gr bullets
Re: Fastest barrel
Jedi, If I had to take a guess as to what would help that might yield more velocity. I would make the groove size bigger. I'd use a standard bore size but make the groove size bigger.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Jedi, If I had to take a guess as to what would help that might yield more velocity. I would make the groove size bigger. I'd use a standard bore size but make the groove size bigger.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Fastest barrel
Frank
enjoyed talking to you, great info from a master barrel maker
Fastest barrel
Well it maybe the one frank n the guys @Bartlien are putting together for me. Frank spent some considerable time on phone discussing various technical points of barrel configuration, that more than likely would yield higher than average velocity.
I will post results achieved once barrel is on hand, Frank seems as eager as me to verify end result.
Frank
enjoyed talking to you, great info from a master barrel maker
Fastest barrel
Well it maybe the one frank n the guys @Bartlien are putting together for me. Frank spent some considerable time on phone discussing various technical points of barrel configuration, that more than likely would yield higher than average velocity.
I will post results achieved once barrel is on hand, Frank seems as eager as me to verify end result.
Re: Fastest barrel
Sub'n for results, very interested in this.
Frank should give you your barrel, plus a regular barrel and have both of them chambered/cut by sane smith, then do a test
Sub'n for results, very interested in this.
Frank should give you your barrel, plus a regular barrel and have both of them chambered/cut by sane smith, then do a test
Re: Fastest barrel
Looking forward to your review Jedi.
I have a Krieger 5R on that 6.5x47 that I use, 22" and 123gr Scenars. It is accurate as hell but never chronoed it. Seen several .25moa groups and I don't shoot groups much except for load dev.
That said my Bartlein 5R barely edges it out accuracy-wise on my Gap 7WSM (several high teen moa groups).
Would not hesitate to recommend either barrel to anyone so I am sure you will be happy with yours.
Looking forward to your review Jedi.
I have a Krieger 5R on that 6.5x47 that I use, 22" and 123gr Scenars. It is accurate as hell but never chronoed it. Seen several .25moa groups and I don't shoot groups much except for load dev.
That said my Bartlein 5R barely edges it out accuracy-wise on my Gap 7WSM (several high teen moa groups).
Would not hesitate to recommend either barrel to anyone so I am sure you will be happy with yours.
Re: Fastest barrel
I just finished a seven month build of my new long range rifle.
What I wanted was a very good burn of the slowest powder I would use that would give me the longest possible burn area for as much useable gas pressure. I ran combustion test a varied bullet weights and velocities I wanted to use at the range.
I contacted St.Marks and other powder manufactures and got their data for my cartridge capacity and their estimated millisecond burns in my barrels volume.
Long story short, my barrel is 28.5" long. All of the powder has burned before the bullet has left the muzzle. There is no flash. With the new powders from St.Marks, I'm getting velocities I could only have dreamed of one year ago.
Their new powder's OBP-716, WC869, 100V, Superformance and others are just fantastic in the right rifles.
Several of the guys in my Ranges Mile-club have gone to longer barrels to take advantage of the new powders.
If you can find a pound of Superformance on the shelf, look at the FPS for .22-250 and the pressures and barrel length. They are an eye opener.
My data is from their base lines and worked up to the most efficient. (80- 100 grains of powder)for my case.
On average for my rifle, between the two,barrel length and new powders, I'm seeing at least 300 FPS.( I live at 6,500 feet)
I just finished a seven month build of my new long range rifle.
What I wanted was a very good burn of the slowest powder I would use that would give me the longest possible burn area for as much useable gas pressure. I ran combustion test a varied bullet weights and velocities I wanted to use at the range.
I contacted St.Marks and other powder manufactures and got their data for my cartridge capacity and their estimated millisecond burns in my barrels volume.
Long story short, my barrel is 28.5" long. All of the powder has burned before the bullet has left the muzzle. There is no flash. With the new powders from St.Marks, I'm getting velocities I could only have dreamed of one year ago.
Their new powder's OBP-716, WC869, 100V, Superformance and others are just fantastic in the right rifles.
Several of the guys in my Ranges Mile-club have gone to longer barrels to take advantage of the new powders.
If you can find a pound of Superformance on the shelf, look at the FPS for .22-250 and the pressures and barrel length. They are an eye opener.
My data is from their base lines and worked up to the most efficient. (80- 100 grains of powder)for my case.
On average for my rifle, between the two,barrel length and new powders, I'm seeing at least 300 FPS.( I live at 6,500 feet)
Re: Fastest barrel
On the Broughton 5c. I got a 32" 5.75 1:10 twist blank and had it put on a blue printed 700 in .300 win mag and had it choppred to 30" and throated long for the 208's to 230's. right now with 74.5 grains of Retumbo I'm getting over 3,000 fps and outstanding accuracy with the Berger 230 hybrid
On the Broughton 5c. I got a 32" 5.75 1:10 twist blank and had it put on a blue printed 700 in .300 win mag and had it choppred to 30" and throated long for the 208's to 230's. right now with 74.5 grains of Retumbo I'm getting over 3,000 fps and outstanding accuracy with the Berger 230 hybrid
Rock Creek have yielded slightly higher velocities than others of the same configuration for myself and others I know. YMMV
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Add more information/details? You are not comparing apples to apples are you? What bore size? What groove size are the barrels made to? What chamber spec. are you running vs. the guy sitting next to you? I won't even go into powder lots, primer lots, bullets etc...
Later, Frank
Jedi! MMI Trutec is the only place I would use at this time. If you test fire the barrel before you send it out don't put a lot of rounds thru the barrel. Depending on caliber they don't want barrels that have 50 or more rounds on them. If you do shoot/test the barrel make sure it is clean etc...before you send it out.
I'll pm you here shortly.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Roger that
Plan on running 10-15 then pulling it for melonite, i thought it was recommended you put a few thru barrel prior to sending?
As i understand MMI no longer accepting single barrel orders and work is done by Rodney @ RT customs since late 2011
Also hear good things about H&M, need to call and get info, i would suspect they clean item before treatment vs rely on customer and have adverse effect on treatment
To be clear Melonite treatment is solely for extended barrel life, hoping for 5k+ of Tak accuracy, thou several have indicated an increase in fps.
Which in testing Frank did was not duplicated, no gain no loss
Barrel specs
6.5mm Barrel .256 x .2645, 5R, "T" style 9.7 to 8.9682 twist
strictly setup for 123gr bullets
Hoping to have it squared away before end of march, pending smith and turn around for melonite
will update as it unfolds
Plan on running 10-15 then pulling it for melonite, i thought it was recommended you put a few thru barrel prior to sending?
As i understand MMI no longer accepting single barrel orders and work is done by Rodney @ RT customs since late 2011
Also hear good things about H&M, need to call and get info, i would suspect they clean item before treatment vs rely on customer and have adverse effect on treatment
To be clear Melonite treatment is solely for extended barrel life, hoping for 5k+ of Tak accuracy, thou several have indicated an increase in fps.
Which in testing Frank did was not duplicated, no gain no loss
Barrel specs
6.5mm Barrel .256 x .2645, 5R, "T" style 9.7 to 8.9682 twist
strictly setup for 123gr bullets
Hoping to have it squared away before end of march, pending smith and turn around for melonite
will update as it unfolds
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They just don't want to see barrels with more than 50 rounds on them before the Melonite is done. I guess the reason is that in some calibers the wear will have already started. If that's the case then the Melonite won't help you at all. Yea they are not taking single orders you have to go thru someone to get it sent it. Don't rely on anyone to clean it for you. Make sure it's clean before you send it in. I would only trust MMI at this time. Some other places are not just doing gun barrels. They will throw it in with other misc. items and the different steels process at a different rate. If the barrel is left in to long it will wreck the barrel.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
I have a 5R, and I know what a 5C is. Forgive my ignorance, but what is a 5P barrel? Also, is it assumed that all of the fastest barrels are odd groove twist?
No odd number of grooves doesn't mean they are the fastest. I had two 6mm barrels. Same chamber same load. One was a conventional 4 groove the other 5R. Both 1-8 twist. In this particular case the 4 groove was faster by about 30-40fps. Anything though with in a 100fps. in my book is normal. One barrel could've had a groove size of .2430" an the other say .2432". That little difference in groove size could mean the difference. 5P I believe is standing for polygonal rifling.
The number of grooves for the most part in my opinion with everything else being equal will have no real bearing on pressures or velocities. You start changing bore size, groove size (the total surface area of the bore) and this will have a bigger impact on velocities and pressures.
Also take what you hear with a grain of salt when one guys .30-06 seems to be 200fps. faster than what you get with yours. Was his barrel chambered with the same chamber reamer as yours. The difference in throat specs. can make a difference. Also what day did he do his testing on, temperature, altitude conditions, load, powder, bullets, etc...are all variables. Not to even mention some chronographs will give different readings than others. Some are more reliable etc.......
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
The number of grooves for the most part in my opinion with everything else being equal will have no real bearing on pressures or velocities. You start changing bore size, groove size (the total surface area of the bore) and this will have a bigger impact on velocities and pressures.
Also take what you hear with a grain of salt when one guys .30-06 seems to be 200fps. faster than what you get with yours. Was his barrel chambered with the same chamber reamer as yours. The difference in throat specs. can make a difference. Also what day did he do his testing on, temperature, altitude conditions, load, powder, bullets, etc...are all variables. Not to even mention some chronographs will give different readings than others. Some are more reliable etc.......
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
D
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Somebody should come up with a comprehensive ballistic app just for the Earth's moon.
Rifles may be faster than other rifles because of more accurate tolerances built into it. But I think the barrel is just part of the equation. I see a lot of finger pointing at barrels, twist rates, and so forth on the Internet and at the range. None of which is the true unknown answer.
Here is a real world observation...
Repetition is very important.
Proper Barrel Break-in Procedure - YouTube
Rifles may be faster than other rifles because of more accurate tolerances built into it. But I think the barrel is just part of the equation. I see a lot of finger pointing at barrels, twist rates, and so forth on the Internet and at the range. None of which is the true unknown answer.
Here is a real world observation...
Repetition is very important.
Proper Barrel Break-in Procedure - YouTube
Its not the speed that barrel can produce, its the accuracy and consistancy. You can build DOPE for any rifle that is accurate. We have a 17in Boughton we shoot to 1100 and it does great. Not the fastest, but it is accurate and dependable.
