Federal brass...annealing?

[rick3]

I've seen the posts about Federal rifle brass primer pockets opening up too much and being too loose after being reloaded several times, but I've not seen anything about the necks opening up as well...

I've got some fired Federal .243 brass that I've reloaded twice without a problem, but today after re-priming them (without a problem), I find that the necks on every one I tried were so loose that the bullet just falls into the case body. This was after de-priming, re-sizing, and re-priming.

Is this something that can be solved by annealing the case mouths? I've read about annealing, but I've never done it...
Or is this brass just useless now?

 

[roggom]

Something is not right; Federal is known for softer brass, and as a result it should grow a little but not open up on the case mouth. It may be possible that you did not have the locking ring set tight enough on your die and accidentally adjusted the die as you were taking it out. Not really sure, as I do not know which die you are using. Redding bushing dies have an adjustment on top that will determine how far down the neck it sizes, other conventional dies should be obvious as if they are sizing as you will have resistance from the sizing ball on the way up.

Annealing helps to prevent neck splitting as constant working of the brass makes it brittle.

In short, check you die setting.

 

[sinister]

Annealing will help but you can also use a Neck-only sizing die with a select bushing.

The more the brass is sized the more it's work-hardened. Annealing before sizing helps soften the neck and shoulder brass to extend usable case life.

If you choose not to anneal try removing the expander ball on the deprime rod in your sizer.

 

[supercorndogs]

what kind of sizing die did you use. i have seen this happen with lee collet dies when the cases are not pushed in hard enough

my dad had this problem once when he was putting moly on his own bullets. he tumbled some for too long it made them get too big just above the boat tail. so when that portion was through the neck they would fall into the case.

i would think. it is your sizing die or your bullets. brass would not rebound that far after being properly sized

 

[rick3]

I'm using the Lee Pacesetter die set:
Lee Pacesetter 3-Die Set 243 Winchester

I'm not any kind of expert at this, but from what I understand, when you do the deprime/size operation, the expander ball enters the mouth first, then the neck of the case gets "squeezed" into shape by the upper part of the die...so this is why you're suggesting that either the case isn't pushed into the die hard enough, or I should remove the expander ball...is my logic correct here?

Makes sense to me. But it's funny that this only happened with the Federals; I was also working on some PPU cases, and they worked fine with no problems of case mouth looseness...

I'll give both the expander removal AND the increasing the pressure at the apex of the stroke when I get home today, and let you know.

Thanks for the info...I didn't really want to get into annealing just yet.

 

[dauntedfuture]

I suspect the reason that some brass works in that its thicker in the necks than the other brass is. Annealing has nothing to do with your neck tension/ sizing issue. Your sized brass should an internal diameter .001-.003 smaller then the diameter of the bullet. A small diameter = more neck tension. Federal brass is soft and the primer pockets will likely be the first thing to fail. I have never annealed a case in my life and have shot some great scores at 600 and 1000 yds. It might help a little bit, just not sure how much.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I suspect the reason that some brass works in that its thicker in the necks than the other brass is. Annealing has nothing to do with your neck tension/ sizing issue.

I thought we annealed to control neck tension, without going to smaller diameter bushings, or pulling expander balls in reg sizing dies in work hardened brass?
Even for shit Fed brass, this would be way too much springback, op you need to give more info as to what you're using, dies, etc.. I'd say your not getting it sized right?

 

[Milo 2.5]

Are you 100% sure you're shoving the right diameter bullets into the case? I've loaded for 30 years and have seen some dumbass shit, right here in my own reloading room. Just a couple weeks ago I was wildcatting some 7mm Creedmore ammo, with no means to fire them
Luckily I didn't force them into the case and fold the shoulder, but I sure created some donuts that need to be turned off.

 

[dauntedfuture]

Yes, annealing does have something to do with controlling or regulating neck tension. It plays a small part in making sure all the brass springs back the same. In this case, there is a significant lack of neck tension as in the bullets are slipping in the case and annealing is not going to fix this problem.

 

[918v]

If you run your case all the way into your sizer, the neck will be sized about .010" more than it needs to be. When you pull the case out the expander ball will open the neck to give you about .002" to .003" neck tension. So mike the expander ball and tell us the diameter. Also run a case into the die without the expander and mike the neck. See what the difference is.

 

[supercorndogs]

I'm using the Lee Pacesetter die set:
Lee Pacesetter 3-Die Set 243 Winchester

I'm not any kind of expert at this, but from what I understand, when you do the deprime/size operation, the expander ball enters the mouth first, then the neck of the case gets "squeezed" into shape by the upper part of the die...so this is why you're suggesting that either the case isn't pushed into the die hard enough, or I should remove the expander ball...is my logic correct here?

Makes sense to me. But it's funny that this only happened with the Federals; I was also working on some PPU cases, and they worked fine with no problems of case mouth looseness...

I'll give both the expander removal AND the increasing the pressure at the apex of the stroke when I get home today, and let you know.

Thanks for the info...I didn't really want to get into annealing just yet.

are you using the collet die or the full length die. if you remove the mandrel from the collet you can squeeze them way too much. with the collet die you will have to adjust the die for each different brass you use.

the easiest way i have found to use the collet die is to gently overcenter the press. if you have a lee press you cant do this and it is against lee recommendations.

you can also go to lee and get a smaller mandrel for your die. or you can sand yours down.

but my guess is you just need to screw the die in a little farther if it is the collet die. if it is the full length die your expander ball is too big or your bullets are too small

annealing is pretty easy

 

[rick3]

Just wanted to say "thanks" for suggestions about removing the expander ball & running the die down a bit more. Those allowed me to squeeze the necks of the Federals enough to seat the bullet correctly. I'll tell you more when i'm on my reg computer, and don' t have to use this ipad keyboard.