FFL vs Reloading

M

mageekenneth

Private
Minuteman
Nov 26, 2010
8
0
54
South Eastern USA/South Pacific
#1
I am new here, so don't freak out if I get this wrong...but!

I am thinking of getting into reloading. (mostly .45acp and .308 win. After doing quite a bit of research, it seems that there is very little savings overall when ALL of the cost (shipping etc.) is taken into account, plus the time associated with the whole process. I understand the <span style="font-style: italic">JOY
</span> that many people get from reloading as a hobby, but from a purely financial stand point. Would it not be better to just get my FFL and buy higher end rifle ammo at a dealer discounted price?

I also want to add that I have learned so much from this site and all of the members countless hours of experience, and I thank you all for your time and input.
 
#2
Re: FFL vs Reloading

I would submit that there is significantly more involved "time" wise in maintaining and acquiring an FFL in such that you will most likely need a store front (or at least a facility separate from your residence in which to set up your "business"). Your "intent" may be to buy cheap ammo but the ATFE is interested in your "capability" once you get the license.

The price per round savings of dealer ammo vs reloads will not be as much as you may think unless you intend on shooting more than 10K of rounds per year.

At one point a few years ago I did a cost analysis of buying 1K rounds of FGMM at retail (about $1K) and buying a complete reloading set up and components for 1K rounds. IIRC you ended up with 350 - 400 rounds for free by reloading (could be more or less it's been a while).

While you can consider your "time" at your hourly/salary rate and subtract it from the cost the reality is the return in knowledge/satisfaction/mental floss on the time invested is significantly more than your wages will be worth.

After all don't we work our a$$'s of just to get time to do the things we enjoy?

A view from the cheap seats.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#5
Re: FFL vs Reloading

I have done quiet a bit of research ....and you are definately not required to have a storefront as a prerequisite for a FFL. And there seems to be very little in the way of "maintaining" a FFL. It is my understanding that once the initial application is approved, the level of maintainance would coincide with the amount of volume you did as a dealer....ie. transfering weapons etc. I have no interest in that. And as far as "capbility" a level 1 FFL would not allow for FA weapons or destructive devices and is the same type required for gunsmithing. So the only capability I would have would be to buy and sell weapons, and as with everything that is purchased, there is a savings provided to the middle man/wholesaler that allows for any viable product to be profitable. I mean all gun dealers are able to stay in business because they buy for less than the MSRP/over the counter cost. And yes there is the hobby side of it to consider, but i enjoy shooting and I would much rather prefer than diverting my personal time into another hobby. Frankly I have lots of intrest, and I can think of a lot of ways to spend my time that are much more rewarding than sitting at a work bench pulling a handle repeatedly...I am much more extraverted and already have hobbies that I have invested $$$ in that I don't pursue enough. I am not a Gun Nut...I simply like shooting, and was wondering if I could save $300(the cost of the license) in 3 years and not waste away countless hours of my life in the mean time. If between money and time I would rather save time...it's much more valuable to me...but to each his own..thanks for the input. I appreciate your insight
 
#6
Re: FFL vs Reloading

In the end no matter how much you pay for commercial ammo, you cannot buy ammo that is tuned to YOUR barrel. Case over all length, and adjusting the given round seating depth are exacting custom tweaks that you do to get the perfect match of brass, powder, bullet, seating depth etc. The cost of superbly tuned custom ammo is way beyond what you can build it for, yourself.
 
#9
Re: FFL vs Reloading

I am not sure about that. The high end ammo today is very nice and high quality. I did the numbers using Midway as a general reference and this is what I found.
<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Midway 15 October 2011</span></span></span>175gr Sierra MatchKing $149.99 (500) $0.30/ea.
Nosler Brass $42.99 (50) $0.86/ea.
CCI BR-2 primers $52.99 (1000) $0.053/ea.
44.5gr of Varget $156.99 (8lb) $0.125/ea
<span style="font-weight: bold">Cost Per Round $1.82 Not including shpping</span>

I can buy a very similar round (Federal Gold Medal Match .308 175gr Sierra MatchKing BTHP 20rds) from Palmetto State Armory (15 October 2011) for $20/box of 20 or rather $1.07 per round (shipping included) and I have to keep in mind that I own none of the reloading equipment that would be required. So I figure I would have to drop some pretty good cash in order to get to be able to produce the high quality rounds that would make it worth while.

I kind of figure that if I spent all that time focusing on rounds and improving them, and shooting. It would almost consume me and become a defining part of my personailty and I would probably shoot so much more, that I would just blow any savings I worked to gain anyway.

Its a damned hard decision, but I know I could also maybe buy a gun for a few hundred dollars less as well if I got my FFL and it would be hard to beat that savings cranking out a round at a time. But I do really enjoy shooting....Tough decision.


And I honestly don't think I the tiny amount of improvement on accuracy I could gain(if any) would be worth the time and tedious attention to detail that would be required. but then again I could be wrong.
 
#10
Re: FFL vs Reloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K.Lance Magee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have done quiet a bit of research ....and you are definately not required to have a storefront as a prerequisite for a FFL. And there seems to be very little in the way of "maintaining" a FFL. It is my understanding that once the initial application is approved, the level of maintainance would coincide with the amount of volume you did as a dealer....ie. transfering weapons etc. I have no interest in that. And as far as "capbility" a level 1 FFL would not allow for FA weapons or destructive devices and is the same type required for gunsmithing. So the only capability I would have would be to buy and sell weapons, and as with everything that is purchased, there is a savings provided to the middle man/wholesaler that allows for any viable product to be profitable. I mean all gun dealers are able to stay in business because they buy for less than the MSRP/over the counter cost. And yes there is the hobby side of it to consider, but i enjoy shooting and I would much rather prefer than diverting my personal time into another hobby. Frankly I have lots of intrest, and I can think of a lot of ways to spend my time that are much more rewarding than sitting at a work bench pulling a handle repeatedly...I am much more extraverted and already have hobbies that I have invested $$$ in that I don't pursue enough. I am not a Gun Nut...I simply like shooting, and was wondering if I could save $300(the cost of the license) in 3 years and not waste away countless hours of my life in the mean time. If between money and time I would rather save time...it's much more valuable to me...but to each his own..thanks for the input. I appreciate your insight </div></div>

You don't NEED a store front to get an FFL and there are no rules about how much business you have to do in order to keep your FFL. However the ATF is interested in you getting you license for business purposes and not personal. In fact they frown heavily on people obtaining an FFL for personal use. So also remember this. When you fill out you paperwork for the FFL you have to add a business address and if approved this location is up for ATF inspection at any time for any reason. Do you really want your home to be this location? Also record keeping can be a PITA and inadequate record will land yourself in a metric butt ton of legal trouble. Is the your $300 of savings worth this?

On the savings side. Yes buying at dealer cost will save you some money but things aren't like you are thinking. Few manufacturers deal direct with dealers. Dealers deal primarily with distributors, thus a middle man still exist. And the mark up on most items is quite low. Thus the savings are not astronomical. Also you will find to get the rock bottom prices you must deal in volume. This hold true in any business. The small time buyers always pay high prices then those that purchase in volume.

So to answer your question, no getting an FFL for what you are proposing is not worth it. And in fact the ATF will not like the idea either. You are much better off and will get better ammo buy just reloading.
 
#11
Re: FFL vs Reloading

And I don't doubt that for an instance... But I am having some pretty good results with the over the counter stuff out to 900yds or so. I think the rounds are WAY more accurate than I am. Damned wind...It messes you up when you are sailing and shooting. Maybe its just the me, but I am into sail boats, telescopes/astronomy deep space photography, sky diving, muzzelloading, archery, fishing. I get way too in to all of those things..and they are all expensive..It's times like these that I wish I were rich. Unfortunately I can't afford the high end guns and scopes etc. My sailboat isn't that nice, My telescopes, cameras, fishing gear, bow/arrows are all quality stuff, but none of them are top of the line. I have a savage 10fp with a swas scope. I can hit a head sized target @ 900yds pretty consitently. and I am satisfied with that. So I am not sure if the whole reloading thing is worth the time and the money....All I would be trying to do would be replicate the consistency I have with what I am shooting with over the counter stuff. Not enough time or money for much else. Besides I live in Mississippi. The only place I can shoot long distance is quite a drive away..
 
#13
Re: FFL vs Reloading

Per 1000 rounds...

Hornady 178 Amax $25/100 x 10 = 250.00
Winchester 308 Brass $22/100 x 10 = 220.00
CCI BR2 Primers $53/1000 = 53.00
Varget $23/155 rounds, x 7 = 161.00

Total cost = $684.00/1000 rounds = $0.68 per round

Home made will shoot as good or better than Gold Medal and you will have another 316 dollars for additional supplies. Which by the way, is enough for a basic reloading kit. Its much more cost effective to purchase the components yourself, and far more effective down range.

$0.32c a round doesn't sound like much but it adds up over time. I'd rather take that extra money and put another couple hundred rounds down range myself. There is a trade off, no doubt. If you are a busy guy like Lowlight, it makes more sense to buy it than put the time in required to shoot at the volume he does.

For the rest of us, reload.
 
#14
Re: FFL vs Reloading

$1.33 a round not a $1.86 if you buy Nosler brass.

You have the brass you just shot, Winchester is $23 for 50, about 46 cents each if you need brass. About 50 cents a piece to roll your own with once (or 5 or 6 times) fired brass.

Shop around for components you'll save buying locally or in group orders.

As far as FFL or reloading goes, I'm not sure which way works better but I know a couple of guys that had FFLs and they said for the hassle it was never worth it. Neither had businesses just FFL's.

As LawnMM said after your first thousand you've paid for your equipment. As for time your looking at about an hour a night twice a month for your ammo.
 
#15
Re: FFL vs Reloading

Get a Type 3 FFL, AKA, C&R. Many of the major retailers (Midway, Brownells, Grafs,...etc) will extend dealer pricing to collectors.

$30 for 3 years. No record keeping unless you purchase eligible firearms. No unannounced visits. No need to conduct business of any sort.
 
#19
Re: FFL vs Reloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Per 1000 rounds...

Hornady 178 Amax $25/100 x 10 = 250.00
Winchester 308 Brass $22/100 x 10 = 220.00
CCI BR2 Primers $53/1000 = 53.00
Varget $23/155 rounds, x 7 = 161.00

Total cost = $684.00/1000 rounds = $0.68 per round

Home made will shoot as good or better than Gold Medal and you will have another 316 dollars for additional supplies. Which by the way, is enough for a basic reloading kit. Its much more cost effective to purchase the components yourself, and far more effective down range.

$0.32c a round doesn't sound like much but it adds up over time. I'd rather take that extra money and put another couple hundred rounds down range myself. There is a trade off, no doubt. If you are a busy guy like Lowlight, it makes more sense to buy it than put the time in required to shoot at the volume he does.

For the rest of us, reload. </div></div>Keep in mind, once you shoot those 1000 rounds, you load the cases again, so the next 1000 you load are $220 cheaper.
I don't know where this price came from, but I've not found any brass for $22 per hundred.
 
#20
Re: FFL vs Reloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigger29</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Per 1000 rounds...

Hornady 178 Amax $25/100 x 10 = 250.00
Winchester 308 Brass $22/100 x 10 = 440.00
CCI BR2 Primers $53/1000 = 53.00
Varget $23/155 rounds, x 7 = 161.00

Total cost = $904.00/1000 rounds = $0.90 per round

Home made will shoot as good or better than Gold Medal and you will have another 316 dollars for additional supplies. Which by the way, is enough for a basic reloading kit. Its much more cost effective to purchase the components yourself, and far more effective down range.

$0.32c a round doesn't sound like much but it adds up over time. I'd rather take that extra money and put another couple hundred rounds down range myself. There is a trade off, no doubt. If you are a busy guy like Lowlight, it makes more sense to buy it than put the time in required to shoot at the volume he does.

For the rest of us, reload. </div></div>Keep in mind, once you shoot those 1000 rounds, you load the cases again, so the next 1000 you load are $220 cheaper.
I don't know where this price came from, but I've not found any brass for $22 per hundred. </div></div>

You are right, error on my part, I fixed it above. The advantage, as brought up after my post, is that you can reload the brass after the first purchase. Now your price per 1000 rounds drops to $464.00/1000 rounds, $0.46c per shot is a lot better than over a dollar a round for Gold Medal. There are startup costs to reloading, no doubt about it. However, the savings quickly pay back on the initial investment.

Rich
 
#21
Re: FFL vs Reloading

So I have given in. Damn it!!! I have looked through the forum and tried to search, but can't find the data...What can I expect to spend on a set up for .308 and .45acp. and should I do the 550B or a nice dillon rock chucker or lee classic cast single stage press????

Whats it gonna cost for me to just get the equipment?
Can anyone give me a heads up on where on here I can find a short list of highly reccomended items?

I am in Afghnistan and our comms suck and I don't have a lot of access for searching.

Thanks guys....
 
#22
#23
Re: FFL vs Reloading

Reloader for over 40 years. Started with dad befors i was 5 , then did my own loads at 12, still under Dad supervision.

Dad was a engineer, machinist for MEC.

Now looking back I still love to reload. I still show quite a few people a year how to have better loads over most factory loads. Try reloading the bigger stuff verses buying it. There are always people who can help you out. Plus set you up with stuff.

Jeff
 
#24
Re: FFL vs Reloading

You can get a basic RCBS kit with EVERYTHING you need except dies, shell holder, and supplies (powder, primer, pills) for around 350-400 dollars. Add another 50 for a basic die set, 25 for powder, 35 for a box of ammo, 25 for a bag of brass and you're looking at about 460-560 for everything you need to start.

You should start basic, upgrade as you go. Don't start with progressive presses or anything, there are dangers there that you really shouldn't be exposed to until you have some reloading experience behind you.

Rich
 
#25
Re: FFL vs Reloading

I have my C&R FFL and that does save on reloading components at Brownells and Midway. I also just stock up a couple times a year when I see a good sale at one of the big stores. Just spent a few hundred at Cabelas on reloading because they had 20% off components, including Lapua brass. And as mentioned above, once you made the investment in brass, it is good for a handful or more of loads.

Reloading is fun. Administering an FFL does not sound like fun (especially if you are not nuts about guns).
 
#26
Re: FFL vs Reloading

BTW - our Cabelas has that RCBS master kit for $279, plus RCBS is running a $50 rebate if you spend 300 (a set of dies will get you to 300).

That makes for a fine deal.
 
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