Rifle Scopes ffp mildot question

Roasted Turkey

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I have a quick question and i have searched around and i may have found the answer but im not real sure and would rather have someone say a simple yes or no but anyway here it is. With a ffp scope with a mil dot reticle lets say 3x-9x would the mil dot still have accurate measurements whether your in 3x or 9x or anywhere in between? thanks guys
 

Remoah

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Re: ffp mildot question

imagine you are looking at a picture on a piece of paper.
and then you draw the Mil Dot reticule over that picture with a marker.

Thats what an FFP scope is like, the image of the crosshairs remains 'overlaid' on the image.

Depending on the zoom level, your point of impact WILL NOT change, just as occurs in a second focal plane scope.

The reason behind FFP is that if you sight your scope in so the crosshairs are accurate at 300m, the second dot is accurate at 400, the third dot at 500 and so on, if you zoom out to 6x for a shot at 300, and then zoom in to 10x for a shot at 500, the point of impact on the dots will not change, as the reticule size has not changed, just the amount of zoom.

EDIT.
So YES, you are correct.
 

canuck4570

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Re: ffp mildot question

Remoah,
just learned something
went on JBM and you have to adjust the bullet speed and its good to about 700 meters unless
I missed something...












 

fdkay

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remoah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">imagine you are looking at a picture on a piece of paper.
    and then you draw the Mil Dot reticule over that picture with a marker.

    Thats what an FFP scope is like, the image of the crosshairs remains 'overlaid' on the image.

    Depending on the zoom level, your point of impact WILL NOT change, just as occurs in a second focal plane scope.

    The reason behind FFP is that if you sight your scope in so the crosshairs are accurate at 300m, the second dot is accurate at 400, the third dot at 500 and so on, if you zoom out to 6x for a shot at 300, and then zoom in to 10x for a shot at 500, the point of impact on the dots will not change, as the reticule size has not changed, just the amount of zoom.

    EDIT.
    So YES, you are correct. </div></div>
    Fail. On many levels.
    This is an example, not exact, but this is for the 168 grain OTM leaving the muzzle at 2600 fps with a 300 yard zero. Caclulations provided by JBM ballstics.
    You can see that indeed the drop at 400 yards is 1 mil. That is the ONLY time that this happens, at 500 yards you are off by .2 mil, not terrible provided your estimation was good, at 600 yards you would be off by 1/2 mil and it only gets worse from there.

    Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
    (yd) (mil) (mil) (mil) (mil) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (mil) (mil)
    300 -0.0 -0.0 0.2 0.2 2042.8 1.830 1556.5 0.390 1.9 1.9
    400 -1.0 -1.0 0.3 0.3 1872.2 1.677 1307.3 0.544 2.0 2.0
    500 -2.2 -2.2 0.4 0.4 1711.2 1.533 1092.2 0.711 2.1 2.1
    600 -3.5 -3.5 0.5 0.5 1561.4 1.399 909.3 0.895 2.2 2.2
    700 -5.0 -5.0 0.6 0.6 1424.5 1.276 756.8 1.096 2.3 2.3
    800 -6.7 -6.7 0.7 0.7 1302.7 1.167 633.0 1.316 2.4 2.4
    900 -8.7 -8.7 0.8 0.8 1198.8 1.074 536.0 1.557 2.5 2.5
    1000 -11.0 -11.0 1.0 1.0 1114.8 0.999 463.6 1.817 2.7 2.7


    That does not mean you can't use the mil-dots for hold overs, but you don't just sight in a 300 and use each dot as a holdover at every 100 yard increment.
    With a FFP scope, the relationship bwtween the target and the crosshairs remains constant. You can mil at any power, you can use your mil-dots for holdovers and leads at any power. That does NOT mean that you just use the next one in line for every 100 yards.

    With ANY good quality scope, SFP or FFP, your point of impact will not change when you adjust the adjust the magnification.

    With a SFP scope, the mil-dots are only accurate at one setting, that does not mean you can't use them at different settings, it just means you have to "map" them at those different settings.
     

    canuck4570

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    thanks fdkay
    very interesting this long range shooting sport
    just received my TRG22 in 308 and a S@B 5-25x56 with a P4
    like the scope so much I am thinking of buying a S@B 1-8x24 with the mil dot CC reticle for my hunting rifle (30-06)
    this reticle has 7 mil dot on the lower part of the reticle looks promissing
    thanks again for the info....
     

    canuck4570

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remoah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ease up mate, it was only an example, bullet drop is individual to almost every rifle and scope setup. </div></div>
    no offense intended Remoah
    has fdkay said I failed on all counts
    but it is with you guys that we are able to learn on this site
    has they say I will go to bed tonight less ignorant
     

    pupdawg

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remoah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ease up mate, it was only an example, bullet drop is individual to almost every rifle and scope setup. </div></div>

    Sorry, but he wasn't only referring to your bullet drop example.

    Reason behind a FFP scope is that the reticle VALUE remains the same regardless of magnification.

    EXAMPLE in a MIL-DOT reticle/ FFP:

    1 mil-dot is 1 mil-dot at 3x, 4x, 5.5x, even 6.8795464332x.

     

    canuck4570

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pupdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remoah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ease up mate, it was only an example, bullet drop is individual to almost every rifle and scope setup. </div></div>

    Sorry, but he wasn't only referring to your bullet drop example.

    Reason behind a FFP scope is that the reticle VALUE remains the same regardless of magnification.
    oufffff imagine a scope at 6.502735879986x
    yes this I know that is the reason I am switching from sfp to ffp...... like this arrangement better
    has said abobe I just received my S@B 5-25x56 with P4 reticle in the FFP love it....

    EXAMPLE in a MIL-DOT reticle/ FFP:

    1 mil-dot is 1 mil-dot at 3x, 4x, 5.5x, even 6.8795464332x.

    </div></div>
     

    fdkay

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remoah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ease up mate, it was only an example, bullet drop is individual to almost every rifle and scope setup. </div></div>

    True, but that is not what you said, You made a blanket statement that was incorrect. My intent was not to "call you out" but to but to make it immediately clear that this info should be discarded.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason behind FFP is that if you sight your scope in so the crosshairs are accurate at 300m, the second dot is accurate at 400, the third dot at 500 and so on,</div></div>
     

    rjroberts

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    Yes. That is the whole point behind ffp. I don't know if you already have one or not but be cautioned that the size of the reticle changes with the size of the image, as a function of the zoom. The reticle can be hard to see at low magnification and can overpower the target at high, though not usually much of an issue at the magnifications you mention.
     

    canuck4570

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    yes rjroberts, as mentioned above I have a S@B 5-25x56 with the P4 reticle
    I had a hard time choosing between P4 and P4 fine for my S@B
    finally choose the P4 because to me the reticle in the NF that I have are to fine for me
    yes at 25x its bigger and has you go down its thinner ( I should say it appear bigger ) and goind down on x it get ( again I should say appear to be thinner ) but has Lowlight said and many of you the reticle covers .250 at all magnification
    I saw both the P4 and P4 fine and because I can see the P4 easily all the way down to 5 x I chosed it, if bench rest was my sport I would of chosen something else
     

    Roasted Turkey

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    im actually looking at a 4x-14x but when you say the reticle is hard to see lets say at 4x your talking the mildot hash marks right
     

    canuck4570

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dick G.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im actually looking at a 4x-14x but when you say the reticle is hard to see lets say at 4x your talking the mildot hash marks right </div></div>

    hope I will express myself correctly
    here goes
    when I look in my S@B 5-25x56 with the P4
    at 25x the reticle seems large but if you observe the reticle covers .250 of whatever target you are aiming at
    example you are still able to put it in the hole of a 308 (barely) this at 100 meters
    at 200 meters you can not do this
    if you had the P4 fine you could do it since it covers .130 at 100 meters
    NOW at 5 x at 100 meters with the P4 you still see it clearly and able to aim you might not see the .308 bullet hole but a least you see the reticle
    for my eyes I say below the 15x marks the P4fine is very very thin and in bright sunlight I loose it
    yes I am referring to the hash marks
    but if you choose the mil dot that could be different since they are bigger to my knowledge
    haven't seen one may be at 25x if they covers 1/2 inches I would say that would be to large
    speaking of the dots here
    hope you understand.....
    I think for me the P4 is great for shooting plate and tactical target in quick shooting scenario the P4 jump out at you .....
    Canuck
     

    fdkay

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    Much of that depends on the glass. I have a Falcon Menace 4-14x. As you decrease magnification, the mil dots become more difficult to see. With MY eyes, I have trouble discerning the mil-dots below 8 power.
    Another concern is low light performance.
    In low light it is difficult to make out the CROSSHAIRS.

    The fact that you can't use the mil dots at lower power is not a concern. If you are turning down the magnification, you are not shooting at distances that require holdover and range estimation.
     

    canuck4570

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    Re: ffp mildot question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Much of that depends on the glass. I have a Falcon Menace 4-14x. As you decrease magnification, the mil dots become more difficult to see. With MY eyes, I have trouble discerning the mil-dots below 8 power.
    Another concern is low light performance.
    In low light it is difficult to make out the CROSSHAIRS.

    The fact that you can't use the mil dots at lower power is not a concern. If you are turning down the magnification, you are not shooting at distances that require holdover and range estimation. </div></div>

    very good point there fdkay
    but for me at 100 meters at 5x with a P4 fine and in low light I would not see the reticle (the center of it )
    tried it and no go
    but if you put the lights the illuminated reticle on well you would be able to shoot