Rifle Scopes FFP vs. SFP - dot question

[Jayjay1]

I´d like to have a FFP reticle for my first LR rifle (out to 1200yds.), because I want to be able to determine distance with my reticle as a backup.

No I was speaking to a guy who does some LR-shooting and he told me FFP is crap, because the center dot is magnified too and the target might be covered from it.
Aaaand you can´t hit what you don´t see.

I know, that most of you use a FFP (think so of what I´m reading here).

So how big can a dot be for out to 1200yds. in your opinion?

 

[withoutwarning]

Don’t listen to your friend.

 

[Precision Underground]

If the target is small enough to be fully blocked out by the reticle at 1200 yards you prob ain’t hitting it anyway.

 

[samb300]

A typical center dot on a FFP scope has a diameter of 0.05 mils. (A small dot would be 0.03 mils, large would be 0.1 mils)

0.05 mils = 0.18" at 100 yards

0.05 mils = 2.16" at 1200 yards

Even a "large" 0.1 mil dot used in the holdover area of an xmas tree reticle would only cover up 4" at 1200 yards.

So if you're aiming at a target that's less than 2" at 1200 yards then you're in trouble...

 

[munsonbw]

This is a timely question and, it feels stupid to ask, but whatever. If a FFP scope states a 0.2 (1/5) MOA dot at its highest mag, per the manufacturer's reticle drawing, is this directly comparable to a SFP scope that says it has a 1/8 MOA dot? Barring the obvious 1/5 vs 1/8 detail.

 

[308pirate]

This is a timely question and, it feels stupid to ask, but whatever. If a FFP scope states a 0.2 (1/5) MOA dot at its highest mag, per the manufacturer's reticle drawing, is this directly comparable to a SFP scope that says it has a 1/8 MOA dot? Barring the obvious 1/5 vs 1/8 detail.

In FFP scopes, the reticle subtentions are constant regardless of the magnification setting. If the dot is 0.2 MOA, it's 0.2 MOA at any magnification.

In SFP scopes, the reticle subtentions vary with magnification. There is only one magnification setting where the subtentions equal what the manual says they are. At any other magnification the subtentions will change in an inverse ratio to the magnification.

You should be able to work out the answer with that information.

 

[hlee]

People that say “FFP is crap because the reticle grows with the target,” literally have no idea what they are talking about. At low power, a typical FFP reticle is VERY fine, and can be difficult to see. At that same power, a typical sfp reticle will occlude a larger portion of the target. As stated above, a “chunky” FFP reticle will have 0.1 mil subtensions (0.36 inch at 100 y and 3.6 at 1000). Most shooters and rifles can’t hold 1/3 moa at 100 yards, much less 1000.

That said, FFP might not be ideal for short range shooting, or dynamic shooting where quick acquisition of the reticle at low magnification is important. Some prefer sfp where a wide field of view at low mag coupled with a heavy reticle is advantageous- and where calibrated holdovers- at less than max mag- are not important.

 

[308pirate]

That said, FFP might not be ideal for short range shooting, or dynamic shooting where quick acquisition of the reticle at low magnification is important. Some prefer sfp where a wide field of view at low mag coupled with a heavy reticle is advantageous- and where calibrated holdovers- at less than max mag- are not important.

Exactly. It pays to understand how these things work.

That's why all my long range precision scopes are mil/mil/FFP and my low power variable has a SFP reticle that is very fast to use without illumination, even faster with the center dot on, and since it has a BDC I don't care if the turrets adjust in mils or MOA because it doesn't matter.

 

[ken226]

Dont wanna state the obvious, others have already said this, but using more technical language that leaves you to figure it out using a knowledge base that you may not have.

Simply put, your friend is missing a really basic fact here.

Sure, the reticle gets bigger as you zoom in. But so does the target, and the background, and everything else. The ratio of apparent sizes stays the same.

If the reticle covers the target at high magnification, it does so at the rest too.

If the reticle dot is 10% smaller than the target at 8x, then the reticle is 10% smaller than the target at 50x too.

 

[Jayjay1]

Thanks guys, you helped me with this subject.

And well, he is not a friend of mine, just someone I know who shoots LR.
He´s a bit of a loudmouth and I don´t like him to much, but he made me unsure about the right focal plane.

So FFP is the way to go.
0.03 to 0.05 mil dot, thanks again.

 

[Strykervet]

People that say “FFP is crap because the reticle grows with the target,” literally have no idea what they are talking about. At low power, a typical FFP reticle is VERY fine, and can be difficult to see. At that same power, a typical sfp reticle will occlude a larger portion of the target. As stated above, a “chunky” FFP reticle will have 0.1 mil subtensions (0.36 inch at 100 y and 3.6 at 1000). Most shooters and rifles can’t hold 1/3 moa at 100 yards, much less 1000.

That said, FFP might not be ideal for short range shooting, or dynamic shooting where quick acquisition of the reticle at low magnification is important. Some prefer sfp where a wide field of view at low mag coupled with a heavy reticle is advantageous- and where calibrated holdovers- at less than max mag- are not important.

There are exceptions. I have a USO MR8 (I think it's an MR8, it's the older 1-8x scope) and it has a FFP reticle for close and far. It's a circle around tree reticle. At 1x, the tree reduces to almost a dot and you have the ring with the "dot" in the center. As the magnification grows, the ring gets larger until it's no longer visible and the tree is completely visible and at 8x you have a large tree in the center of the scope. It's pretty useful actually and at 1x it works a lot like a EoTech and at 8x it's a lot like a typical scope. I use it on an 11.5" Grendel which is sort of a short/long range rifle.

There's another, I thought USO made one but I'm not sure if they did/do. Others made 'em too. Talking about dual focal plane, DFP or FFP/SFP. In those there is a SFP dot in the center, like a red dot, and as you adjust the magnification the FFP portion grows (sort of like the MR8) and you have a FFP reticle with an SFP dot that stays constant in the center. Not sure who makes one now, or if anyone does still.

But I mostly go for FFP mil/mil scopes too. All but one are in fact, not counting ACOGs.

 

[munsonbw]

In FFP scopes, the reticle subtentions are constant regardless of the magnification setting. If the dot is 0.2 MOA, it's 0.2 MOA at any magnification.

In SFP scopes, the reticle subtentions vary with magnification. There is only one magnification setting where the subtentions equal what the manual says they are. At any other magnification the subtentions will change in an inverse ratio to the magnification.

You should be able to work out the answer with that information.

Thanks, 308pirate.

I know the concept, but I have only looked through a FFP scope once and it seemed to me the opposite of what some claim that a FFP reticle obscures too much of the target. At low power on the PST Gen2 I looked at I could hardly see the reticle, no less worry about it hiding the target. I guess that I need to see them back to back to wrap my head around it, but I am searching for a do-all scope until I decide what game to play: PRS style shooting and 1000yd F-class. A thinner reticle 5-25/6-30 FFP seems the way to go at first glance.

 

[308pirate]

Thanks, 308pirate.

I know the concept, but I have only looked through a FFP scope once and it seemed to me the opposite of what some claim that a FFP reticle obscures too much of the target. At low power on the PST Gen2 I looked at I could hardly see the reticle, no less worry about it hiding the target. I guess that I need to see them back to back to wrap my head around it, but I am searching for a do-all scope until I decide what game to play: PRS style shooting and 1000yd F-class. A thinner reticle 5-25/6-30 FFP seems the way to go at first glance.

The scope requirements for F Class and PRS are mutually exclusive. TRUST me on that. If you want to pursue both, get two rifles with two different scopes.

The general shooting public is frighteningly ignorant about long range shooting in general and FFP scopes in particular. Pay them no mind.

 

[munsonbw]

The scope requirements for F Class and PRS are mutually exclusive. TRUST me on that. If you want to pursue both, get two rifles with two different scopes.

The general shooting public is frighteningly ignorant about long range shooting in general and FFP scopes in particular. Pay them no mind.

While I am sure very true, I am sad to hear this. My thought to test things out was to build a .223 (for heavies) on a stiller I have for FTR and PRS tactical. I know that I am giving up some to the 308 and the scope concerns you mentioned. However, I have the stiller and I also am thinking of what would be a good "all around" gun once I determine what to do next in building/buying a specific gun for each. I would then keep the .223 as a varmint target fooling around gun. On scopes, seems smart money is to buy two scopes of reasonable quality but specific to the separate games. The used market on known scopes seems to be pretty good, so if I buy one right I can sell it without losing my shirt.

Sorry for the hijack, OP.

 

[beetroot]

While I am sure very true, I am sad to hear this. My thought to test things out was to build a .223 (for heavies) on a stiller I have for FTR and PRS tactical. I know that I am giving up some to the 308 and the scope concerns you mentioned. However, I have the stiller and I also am thinking of what would be a good "all around" gun once I determine what to do next in building/buying a specific gun for each. I would then keep the .223 as a varmint target fooling around gun. On scopes, seems smart money is to buy two scopes of reasonable quality but specific to the separate games. The used market on known scopes seems to be pretty good, so if I buy one right I can sell it without losing my shirt.

Sorry for the hijack, OP.

You can still use FFP to great effect in FTR, it's just that a dedicated scope for that purpose (super fine SFP reticle) would be better.
An FFP scope with a really small center dot wont be the deciding factor in you winning or loosing a match.

 

[munsonbw]

An FFP scope with a really small center dot wont be the deciding factor in you winning or loosing a match.

Yeah, lack of shooting skills will be my limiting factor for a while I am sure.