• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Finest Sniper Rifle of WWII?

Aint you allowed to use handloads in Vintage Sniper tho? AFAIK you are.. and while Id choose 6.5 due to recoil over the 7.5 or .30 if everyone could use the Unertl.. you can roll up some some hot loads in .30-06 with 185 Juggernauts, 200-20X, or 215s that should rival anything the 7.5 or 6.5 can do ballistics wise...

Yes, you can handload of course. CMP also sells match grade ammo in a few calibers at the matches, mainly 30-06, but I have seen Hornady Match 303 British and 6.55x55mm Swedish Mauser too. For the 300 yard relay I use the Creedmoor Sports Match 30-06 with 167 Lapua Scenar BTHP, and I have used it at 600 yards as well. The (G1) BC of that bullet is .446, and at 2720 FPS its as good as Swiss 7.5 ammo.

Creedmoor_Sports_30-06_ammo_v2.JPG


My pet handload with 175 TMK bullet has a G1 BC of 0.545, so its quite good even in windy conditions, only bested by high quality 139-140 match bullets in a 6.5x55 that might have a BC that approach 0.6xx. BTW, this CMP article about two veteran competitors using an M1C with a 4X Kollmorgen scope was interesting. A score of 390=12X is excellent, and with a semi-auto M1C its crazy excellent....


...just an fyi: CMP Vintage Sniper Match was separated into two categories 3 or 4 years ago: Bolt-action rifles, and semi-autos - so they award medals based on those two categories. I have only competed in the bolt-action category. The rationale for the separate semi-auto award is that CMP has sold a few thousand vintage M1C and M1D sniper rifles over the past 10 years, and basically no pre-1953/vintage bolt action sniper rifles, and they wanted to stimulate more competitors to use the M1C/M1Ds that they are able to sell from the US Army transfers. A buddy and I might try our M1Cs with 4x scopes next year at the matches, at least we are thinking about it...
 
Last edited:
I don't have any first-hand or research knowledge on the very long-range 'tightening-up' of British .303's or others. Not saying one way or another...

But the British had a TON of research on using the .303 out to ranges that we would think of as completely retarded. 2000 - 3000 yards.

Why?

Because they never gave up the idea of volley fire (c. Linear warfare c. 1776) and believed that with tall enough tangent sights and enough troops firing at once... they could drop enough 'plunging' rounds out of the air to be able to devastate an opposition c. 1914... when helmets were sort of... ceremonial. They especially trained for this in the Machine Gun Corps... and had the slide rules to prove it... with the idea that you could use lots of machine guns to drop millions of .303 darts into German lines. They did. And it worked.

So there are British charts and ballistics research that show how to have your entire division fire their guns, basically in the air, at targets extremely far away. Including NLOS. With the idea that you could drop enough plunging darts into a trench or onto a formation... and cause a bunch of casualties.

I am not saying that I subscribe to some of the ballistics claims. Nor do I necessarily dispute them.

What I do know is that the British Empire had some intriguing ideas about how long-range massed-fire could be effective. And in researching that, they would have come up with some interesting data that was less about how a bullet performed when it was still 'controlled' as far as external ballistics were concerned... and more about how it might perform randomly at ranges beyond mechanical control.

Ok, talk amongst yourselves....

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
I don't have any first-hand or research knowledge on the very long-range 'tightening-up' of British .303's or others. Not saying one way or another...

But the British had a TON of research on using the .303 out to ranges that we would think of as completely retarded. 2000 - 3000 yards.

Why?

Because they never gave up the idea of volley fire (c. Linear warfare c. 1776) and believed that with tall enough tangent sights and enough troops firing at once... they could drop enough 'plunging' rounds out of the air to be able to devastate an opposition c. 1914... when helmets were sort of... ceremonial. They especially trained for this in the Machine Gun Corps... and had the slide rules to prove it... with the idea that you could use lots of machine guns to drop millions of .303 darts into German lines. They did. And it worked.

So there are British charts and ballistics research that show how to have your entire division fire their guns, basically in the air, at targets extremely far away. Including NLOS. With the idea that you could drop enough plunging darts into a trench or onto a formation... and cause a bunch of casualties.

I am not saying that I subscribe to some of the ballistics claims. Nor do I necessarily dispute them.

What I do know is that the British Empire had some intriguing ideas about how long-range massed-fire could be effective. And in researching that, they would have come up with some interesting data that was less about how a bullet performed when it was still 'controlled' as far as external ballistics were concerned... and more about how it might perform randomly at ranges beyond mechanical control.

Ok, talk amongst yourselves....

Cheers,

Sirhr
From what I've read, a similar tactic is still/was in use today/during GWOT in Afghanistan by the Taliban with their PKM's. Say, a 4-6 man Taliban squad with a few PKM's, either together or or in different positions, or a single PKM with the 2 gunners to operate it, wayyyy up on a mountainside overlooking a valley, and opening up on a US/allied patrol with plunging fire from 1500+ yards well out of range of the small arms said patrol is equipped with.
 
How about HMG's tho? Are .50 BMG's/DShK's/14.5x114mm machine guns accurate enough at 1500+ to be effective in anti-personnel role vs say, a 4 man fireteam walking along with no prior intel/no expectation of enemy activity in their immediate vicinity?

I'm going on the assumption that HMG's have a larger beaten zone/less accurate ammo & weapon than smaller MMG's with the above question..??
 
Yes, you can handload of course. CMP also sells match grade ammo in a few calibers at the matches, mainly 30-06, but I have seen Hornady Match 303 British and 6.55x55mm Swedish Mauser too. For the 300 yard relay I use the Creedmoor Sports Match 30-06 with 167 Lapua Scenar BTHP, and I have used it at 600 yards as well. The (G1) BC of that bullet is .446, and at 2720 FPS its as good as Swiss 7.5 ammo.

View attachment 7180384

My pet handload with 175 TMK bullet has a G1 BC of 0.545, so its quite good even in windy conditions, only bested by high quality 139-140 match bullets in a 6.5x55 that might have a BC that approach 0.6xx. BTW, this CMP article about two veteran competitors using an M1C with a 4X Kollmorgen scope was interesting. A score of 390=12X is excellent, and with a semi-auto M1C its crazy excellent....


...just an fyi: CMP Vintage Sniper Match was separated into two categories 3 or 4 years ago: Bolt-action rifles, and semi-autos - so they award medals based on those two categories. I have only competed in the bolt-action category. The rationale for the separate semi-auto award is that CMP has sold a few thousand vintage M1C and M1D sniper rifles over the past 10 years, and basically no pre-1953/vintage bolt action sniper rifles, and they wanted to stimulate more competitors to use the M1C/M1Ds that they are able to sell from the US Army transfers. A buddy and I might try our M1Cs with 4x scopes next year at the matches, at least we are thinking about it...
Have you tried out the 185 Berger Juggs? Or the 200.20X's? I'm reckon you ain't gone get enough pressure (or at least don't wanna throw as much PSI at it vs a modern action..?) and ain't got enough barrel length to see the velocity needed to get much advantage with any bullet over 175-180gr in the '03..??

Thinking of it like that.. the 175 TMK does seem like quite an optimal choice.. Bet the 155 SMK Palma 2156's and 155 TMK's would be a great choice as well.. and the 155 Flatlines if you could get em to group well.
 
Despite what the movies show... the Americans (Marines included) had a relatively poorly-evolve program of military sniping in WW2. And even the pre-war Marksmanship team Marines who went on to help evolve the Scout Sniper concept during Guadalcanal had to back down because Vandegrift did not like 'elite' Marines. He wanted all Marines to be elite. So after he took over as Commandant from Holcomb, who had embraced the concepts, he got rid of para-Marines, Raiders and lots of other interesting concepts that have since come back into being. I interviewed Ed Bearss a few years ago for a book project and he was one of the Scout Sniper plankowners. Interesting guy. I tried to get Frank to do an interview or podcast with him, but they never got together.

The P14 certainly is a great contender. As is the Marine 03. The Garand had the fast-follow-up and 'stillness' advantage. And we can't forget the Japanese Arisaka's. They had a very evolved pre-war program, though it was a little to 'kamakaze' for most of our liking... tying one's self in the top of a banana tree was not a strategy for snipery survival. And towards the end of the war, the German G-K43 had the potential to be remarkable, but they ran out of... everything.

But the real ones to look at, IMHO, are the German 98's and the Russian Nagants. In the hands of very evolved sniper programs. The Germans used sniping on the defensive like noone before or since.

And don't leave out the Finns. Though I am not sure they were what we would call 'snipers' vs. very evolved partisans or unconventional warriors with a long history of being able to shoot holes in holes. IIRC, they had a Sako-made Nagant variant that was about off-the-shelf.

That's the problem with trying to pick history's best. Always shades of gray.

Sirhr

I have one of those Sako M39 rifles that served in the continuation war against the Russians. It is not a sniper version, but it is a combat/ target rifle hybrid that puts all other WWII rifles to shame for accuracy with the exception of the 1917 Enfield.

my vote for best scoped rifle still goes to the No. 4 MKI(T)
 
I don't have any first-hand or research knowledge on the very long-range 'tightening-up' of British .303's or others. Not saying one way or another...

But the British had a TON of research on using the .303 out to ranges that we would think of as completely retarded. 2000 - 3000 yards.

Why?

Because they never gave up the idea of volley fire (c. Linear warfare c. 1776) and believed that with tall enough tangent sights and enough troops firing at once... they could drop enough 'plunging' rounds out of the air to be able to devastate an opposition c. 1914... when helmets were sort of... ceremonial. They especially trained for this in the Machine Gun Corps... and had the slide rules to prove it... with the idea that you could use lots of machine guns to drop millions of .303 darts into German lines. They did. And it worked.

So there are British charts and ballistics research that show how to have your entire division fire their guns, basically in the air, at targets extremely far away. Including NLOS. With the idea that you could drop enough plunging darts into a trench or onto a formation... and cause a bunch of casualties.

I am not saying that I subscribe to some of the ballistics claims. Nor do I necessarily dispute them.

What I do know is that the British Empire had some intriguing ideas about how long-range massed-fire could be effective. And in researching that, they would have come up with some interesting data that was less about how a bullet performed when it was still 'controlled' as far as external ballistics were concerned... and more about how it might perform randomly at ranges beyond mechanical control.

Ok, talk amongst yourselves....

Cheers,

Sirhr
I'd like to differentiate that the plunging fire is different than true "sniping". Although, I will totally acknowledge that this concept did work pretty well, actually.

As you noted, the study mostly revolved around the plunging fire concept, but the ballistics studies were a solid boon to the direct sniping program. Because when talking accuracy to within a few yards @ 3500 yds. One can see that a directly aimed shot at less than a third of that distance could be incredibly accurate. The British Mk VIII was such a round. In ballistics studies as far back as WWI the potential of accurate shooting was recognized. Study after study on this side of the Channel showed that it was the rotational energy of the bullet throwing it off at close range. But then too, coriolis effect and spin drift were seen and begun to be accounted for as well.

On the other side of the channel, Germany actually, because of Hitlers edict about how they were going to fight the next war, the studies began to make machine gun bullets travel better. The whole reason for going heavy again, back to the 198 gr. bullet, was to satisfy machine guns. The rifles were secondary. But, they shot the same bullet so as to make supply a non-issue. Even in the best of worlds, supply will always become an issue. An army always needs more than bullets and beans. Anyhow, the studies of bullet behavior were once again a boon to the sniping community.

One of the biggest things with trying to find the best sniper rifle, is that you find they will ALL work. What will make a good rifle, is having a qualified person behind the trigger. Supplied with training not only on the shooting but the tactics as well. ALL of the rifles in this thread will shoot accurately enough when coming from an arsenal that understands how to build them. The snipers need to come from the leadership mindset that they can work. The Russians and the Germans had probably the most going in that direction, followed by the British. At least the British understood it was a necessary tool in the war chest.

Over here, across the pond, there was a lot of dissent among the leadership as to how valuable, or even if it had value, to use snipers. As noted, Vandergrift didn't want them because they were 'elite'. So he literally threw a war tool away. Most of our snipers came out of being 'good shots' and were given an upgraded rifle. Shooters from teams were recruited to do the job. But, pretty much nowhere was a campaign of using snipers formulated. Not until Viet Nam would we really start to get serious about it.

So, I'll just say that any rifle that can be built to precision and function under tough conditions could be "the greatest sniper rifle". But, it takes a great sniper to make that rifle work to it's fullest capability. Therefore, without the leadership mindset to teach and employ a sustainable force of snipers, NO rifle is gonna matter.

That's a hard thing to do as I've seen too many pompous asses want to poo-poo it or outright throw it away. It's a tool in our arsenal. We need to keep it ready. When I listen to some jackass talk about "the last bayonet charge", I have to overcome a serious urge to knock the dumbass back into reality. We have a buttload of weapons, sniper rifles included, that need to be used long before some dipshit wants to make history with bayonets. Snipers, IMO, need to be on the cutting edge of a conflict, using all the skills we've learned in the past. As long as a rifle is highly capable, in capable hands, it will be a great sniper rifle.
 
How about HMG's tho? Are .50 BMG's/DShK's/14.5x114mm machine guns accurate enough at 1500+ to be effective in anti-personnel role vs say, a 4 man fireteam walking along with no prior intel/no expectation of enemy activity in their immediate vicinity?

I'm going on the assumption that HMG's have a larger beaten zone/less accurate ammo & weapon than smaller MMG's with the above question..??
1500 yds is a chip shot for any of those. And in VN, standard .50m2’s were fitted with Unertl scopes on crude rails and used in anti-personnel sniping. Here are photos.

620C8A19-7DF9-4456-B08B-10417DA66451.jpeg


BA96674E-D712-48E7-BA78-CB6F111F2971.jpeg


They were accurate to 3k yards or more. The issue is that these guns are hard to move and after a shot, it’s hard to dee dee out of the hide... before you become a target. You might have had very good LOS denial out to 3k, but once you were identified, a Chicom 81mm mortar equivalent could hit back NLOS and turn your position into a crater. So these weapons were set up on hilltops and at fire bases where they were supported... so it was sniping... but not sniping!

In some ways, they were less ‘sniper’ weapons and more ‘area denial’ weapons in that role. You could use it like a minefield, or shut down an entire valley to foot and light vehicle traffic. With a couple of guys in a sandbag pit.

Which fits nicely with Sand’s excellent post above. It was an innovative and leading edge concept. Thought up by snipers at the top of their game. And it resulted, a few years later, in the development of the M82 and variants.... which fills the same role while being more portable. Note that I say “more.” Not “portable.” Because it Is a bitch to carry with enough ammo to matter. But that’s why sniper school is hard!

Another tool in the chest!

cheers, Sirhr

PS. Great post Sand!
 
Last edited:
1500 yds is a chip shot for any of those. And in VN, standard .50m2’s were fitted with Unertl scopes on crude rails and used in anti-personnel sniping. Here are photos.

View attachment 7180592

View attachment 7180593

They were accurate to 3k yards or more. The issue is that these guns are hard to move and after a shot, it’s hard to dee dee out of the hide... before you become a target. You might have had very good LOS denial out to 3k, but once you were identified, a Chicom 81mm mortar equivalent could hit back blows and turn your position into a crater. So these weapons were set up on hilltops and at fire bases where they were supported... so it was sniping... but not sniping!

In some ways, they were less ‘sniper’ weapons and more ‘area denial’ weapons in that role. You could use it like a minefield, or shut down an entire valley to foot and light vehicle traffic. With a couple of guys in a sandbag pit.

Which fits nicely with Sand’s excellent post above. It was an innovative and leading edge concept. Thought up by snipers at the top of their game. And it resulted, a few years later, in the development of the M82 and variants.... which fills the same role while being more portable. Note that I say “more.” Not “portable.” Because it Is a bitch to carry with enough ammo to matter. But that’s why sniper school is hard!

Another tool in the chest!

cheers, Sirhr

PS. Great post Sand!
When I went into the army, we did the .50 cal training and they talked about using it scoped or unscoped to snipe single shot with. Yes, it was an area denial weapon due to it bulkiness. But, that led to man portable .50 cal systems that became true sniper systems. And, they have that double benefit of being able to stop vehicles and equipment.

Thanks for posting the multiple pics of .50's with scopes! A lot of people think it was done one time by Hathcock. That actually set the stage for it being done in multiple locations. A T&E on a .50 is extremely accurate. I shot one to 1800m when I went through basic. As did all of us in that training that day. We saw everybody get to move the T&E to different targets with pre-plotted positions. Just as you would do with any range card. But, with the T&E you were able to exactly dial that fifty in. Amazing demonstration and practical application!

Added: I must add that that day the .50 was mounted on a M113 "track". Armor, light or heavy, was an excellent platform for a .50
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ZG47A
A few more....

How about with an early PVS?

View attachment 7180631

Here is a high-mounted Unertl.

View attachment 7180632

And in case you think that stuff is a thing of the past... This was at AUSA... GD (Saco Defense) M2HB, I believe. With lots of toys on top.

View attachment 7180635

And in the Sandbox...

View attachment 7180638

Cheers,

Sirhr
For those of you not familiar, the T&E is clearly seen in pic #2 of sirhrs post. There is a cross-scale on the bar you see connecting the back two legs of the tripod. The traverse was locked down once you reached the point you wanted to set it. The elevation had a scale that went up a thread interruption and had numbers on the wheel. You would come up to the number on the stem you wanted then come up wheel-numbers until you reached the point you wanted. This was not locked as the wheel had enough resistance to stay where you put it. I believe it had some kind of spring keeper, maybe a ball keeper type thing. I can't speak to how it's actually done.

Again, excellent pics sirhr!
 
For those of you not familiar, the T&E is clearly seen in pic #2 of sirhrs post. There is a cross-scale on the bar you see connecting the back two legs of the tripod. The traverse was locked down once you reached the point you wanted to set it. The elevation had a scale that went up a thread interruption and had numbers on the wheel. You would come up to the number on the stem you wanted then come up wheel-numbers until you reached the point you wanted. This was not locked as the wheel had enough resistance to stay where you put it. I believe it had some kind of spring keeper, maybe a ball keeper type thing. I can't speak to how it's actually done.

Again, excellent pics sirhr!
I've rebuilt several T&E's and they vary. Some have gear 'teeth' with ball detentes that let them click 1 degree. Others have spring detentes that pre-load the hand wheels so that once in position, they stay there. Lots of ways to skin that cat.

The earlier ones (like the M1917 water cooled .30's) had amazingly complex, swiss-watch-like T&E's. The M1919 tripods were pretty simple.

Machine gunning was a science. There was no 'spray' involved. You had to have the equivalent of Top ASVAB scores to get assigned to the machine gun corps in WW1. Artillery and Machine Gunners were mathematicians. Guns were set up with overlapping fields of fire, aiming stakes (like mortars), spotlights.... all manner of kit. The whole thing was science... and math. That changed with the more portable 1919's and more mobile tactics in WW2.

But machine gunning was not just spraying rounds.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
1573397496317.png


From the book "One Round War..." this picture shows the M2 in its element. Watching an entire valley. Likely a somewhat wide-angle lens, making the valley look further away than it is. But probably 3 - 4,000 yards across. Rice paddies, trails and a total 'God View' of everything happening. While having almost no 'footprint' down among the indigenous personnel. Not having to run patrols. Not having to walk into mines or ambushes.

This is why sniping is so important in asymmetric warfare. Because the 'guerrilla force' WANTS its enemy to put in a big footprint, kick in doors, walk through crops and otherwise alienate the population. The sniper can snip out the cancer surgically. The "Big Army" in an asymmetric role is like Chemo. You are trying to kill the cancer a bit faster than the patient. Big Army (so to speak) is the best at the world at assaulting and doing big army things.

But guerrilla conflicts are about getting rid of a tiny minority of the population... without turning the rest of the population against you.

This is why the sniper and SOF forces are so effective in those roles.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
D'oh! Musta had a brain fart or something as Ive read Marine Sniper multiple times and remember the part about the M2 w/ Unertl clearly..
Is it safe to assume DShK's and such are as accurate? Cause Ive seen some vids from Syria where they weren't looking so great past ~600-800 yd... reckon that could be just 90% due to operator having sinned recently and Allah not guiding the rounds where said operator was hoping...?
 
I've rebuilt several T&E's and they vary. Some have gear 'teeth' with ball detentes that let them click 1 degree. Others have spring detentes that pre-load the hand wheels so that once in position, they stay there. Lots of ways to skin that cat.

The earlier ones (like the M1917 water cooled .30's) had amazingly complex, swiss-watch-like T&E's. The M1919 tripods were pretty simple.

Machine gunning was a science. There was no 'spray' involved. You had to have the equivalent of Top ASVAB scores to get assigned to the machine gun corps in WW1. Artillery and Machine Gunners were mathematicians. Guns were set up with overlapping fields of fire, aiming stakes (like mortars), spotlights.... all manner of kit. The whole thing was science... and math. That changed with the more portable 1919's and more mobile tactics in WW2.

But machine gunning was not just spraying rounds.

Cheers,

Sirhr
That reminds me.. I still need to get/read The Emma Gees ya recommended to me a long while back!
 
See post 54 on page of this thread..

Positive compensation - In part I think it's tuning a load for a particular distance but I don't understand it fully. It's the method the elite long range benchrest shooters use to both set records and win matches.

There's a guy named Tom who is one of the elite in that regard, who posts on accurateshooter, and shows the slight but critical difference .1 grains of powder can make at 1000Y on paper. Like 3" vertical vs 1.5" vertical at 1000Y, in benchrest this small vertical matters greatly. For us, we'd be jumping up and down exited at 3" vertical, lol.
 
Maybe @THEIS or @sirhrmechanic will have some insight cause yall always seem to have and know about the coolest most cutting edge and Im pretty sure sirhr is a multimillionaire LOL.. anyway.... not to stray too far off topic, but what do yall think of the new Haenel G29 that Germany just adopted? And how it stacks up vs the AI AXMC and other cream of the crop modern rifles?
 
Positive compensation - In part I think it's tuning a load for a particular distance but I don't understand it fully. It's the method the elite long range benchrest shooters use to both set records and win matches.

There's a guy named Tom who is one of the elite in that regard, who posts on accurateshooter, and shows the slight but critical difference .1 grains of powder can make at 1000Y on paper. Like 3" vertical vs 1.5" vertical at 1000Y, in benchrest this small vertical matters greatly. For us, we'd be jumping up and down exited at 3" vertical, lol.
It aint just used in long range, AFAIK we got it from the rimfire BR boys. Anyone using a tuner is seeing PC in effect. Any time you're "tuning" a load, you're seeing at least some PC occurring..
 
  • Like
Reactions: steve123
Oh and @steve123 - you're speaking of Mr Tom Mousel.. YES hes an excellent shooter and competitor. And guess what, him and Mr Roy are coming out with a new .30 cal bullet that they theorize will shoot as well as the 6 Dashers/BRA's.. and that will benefit all of us! Not just the BR crowd!
 
  • Like
Reactions: steve123
Regarding the M41B.

I know that with a 140 grain Berger hybrid going 2650 fps I had a wind advantage compared to most of the other shooters in the Vintage Sniper division during a BPCR Silhouette match.

On this particular match day it was fairly windy, so I had to hold off pretty far which is my normal method anyway with PRS, etc. I set the record in that club, so I was told anyway??, for that division and won the match.

As I mentioned earlier this particular M41B was super accurate, twice what the Marine Sniper was that I used later on. Of course I liked 8x and the reticle more in the Unertl but I didn't dial windage. That extra recoil of the 30-06 and more wind drift wasn't worth the better trigger and ergos to me.
 
Speaking of scoped 50s, I'm in the market for a KAC M2/Mk19 RAS P/N 99207 if anyone has a line on one.

99207-M2-and-Mk19-RAS.jpg
 
Oh and @steve123 - you're speaking of Mr Tom Mousel.. YES hes an excellent shooter and competitor. And guess what, him and Mr Roy are coming out with a new .30 cal bullet that they theorize will shoot as well as the 6 Dashers/BRA's. and that will benefit all of us! Not just the BR crowd!

I saw those posts on the new 30 cal bullet. Might have to copycat that 300Saum improved too ?

I'm all exited from earlier this week. For the fun of it go to the range report forum and look at my Crazy small vertical post. BTW, I do weigh powder to the kernel with a Scott Parker tuned Lyman M5 beam scale.
 
I saw those posts on the new 30 cal bullet. Might have to copycat that 300Saum improved too ?

I'm all exited from earlier this week. For the fun of it go to the range report forum and look at my Crazy small vertical post. BTW, I do weigh powder to the kernel with a Scott Parker tuned Lyman M5 beam scale.
Nice. Did you get the idea from alinwa? He was the first one I saw mentioning weighing powder down to the kernel wayyy back, over on benchrest central..
 
Positive compensation - In part I think it's tuning a load for a particular distance but I don't understand it fully. It's the method the elite long range benchrest shooters use to both set records and win matches.

There's a guy named Tom who is one of the elite in that regard, who posts on accurateshooter, and shows the slight but critical difference .1 grains of powder can make at 1000Y on paper. Like 3" vertical vs 1.5" vertical at 1000Y, in benchrest this small vertical matters greatly. For us, we'd be jumping up and down exited at 3" vertical, lol.

When Furlong made his long shot in Afghan... he was not getting the range he wanted. So he set his rounds out in the sun. The heated rounds gave him extra range.

At 'school' they taught us to keep our rounds out of the sun. Because that made a serious difference at longest ranges. .1 grains of powder... you bet. A tiny variance in primer pockets. A small variance in the bullet neck tension... It all matters. In benchrest and in the highest levels of precision LR shooting.

Go back and read Doc76251's posts from the early days. He was an instructor at my SWAT school and he knows his stuff. No longer here, unless under another name. But Doc was (and probably still is) part of the varsity!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Maybe @THEIS or @sirhrmechanic will have some insight cause yall always seem to have and know about the coolest most cutting edge and Im pretty sure sirhr is a multimillionaire LOL.. anyway.... not to stray too far off topic, but what do yall think of the new Haenel G29 that Germany just adopted? And how it stacks up vs the AI AXMC and other cream of the crop modern rifles?
Sorry..... not up on that one. That's the fun part of retirement. I get to play with old things and let the kids play with all that noo-fangeld stuff! Bet it has a laser, microchips and fuel injection!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Sorry..... not up on that one. That's the fun part of retirement. I get to play with old things and let the kids play with all that noo-fangeld stuff! Bet it has a laser, microchips and fuel injection!

Cheers,

Sirhr
It mainly surprised me Haenel of all companies is who they chose. And I really don't see how it could top an AXMC.. maybe Germany just wanted to move all their service rifle manufacturers to within Germany..?

Maybe @lowlight can get his mitts on one and do a review!! :D

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/18/new-german-army-g29-sniper-rifle-haenel-rs9-338-lm/
 
Hi,

The Haenel RS8 and RS9 are top level weapon systems in all aspects!!

It is far easier to understand how that rifle beat out AI than wrapping head around Barrett beating AI out, ;).

But we will have to see how the tree shakes out from all the upcoming changes in UAE EDIC group of companies...1 of which is Haenel under their Caracal subsidiary.

In regards to big guns...the palletized weapon systems are advancing at a nice pace.
20171113_085251.jpg


Sincerely,
Theis
 
  • Like
Reactions: Forgetful Coyote
Hi,

The Haenel RS8 and RS9 are top level weapon systems in all aspects!!

It is far easier to understand how that rifle beat out AI than wrapping head around Barrett beating AI out, ;).

But we will have to see how the tree shakes out from all the upcoming changes in UAE EDIC group of companies...1 of which is Haenel under their Caracal subsidiary.

In regards to big guns...the palletized weapon systems are advancing at a nice pace.
View attachment 7181114

Sincerely,
Theis
Would you go as far as to say it’s better than the AI?
Also never seem to hear much about the FN Ballista, any chance you’ve gotten to shoot/see one up close?
 
Nice. Did you get the idea from alinwa? He was the first one I saw mentioning weighing powder down to the kernel wayyy back, over on benchrest central..

I can't remember but I've been weighing powder to the kernel since I got into long range shooting about 12 years ago. It's just that the tuned SP scale has the sensitivity needed to do it consistently.

I do remember his posts on the 6x47l and all the reamers he had made while getting progressively larger at the .200 line so he could see which cases were blown out more to one side or not, therefor culling the bad ones using that method.
 
Precision shooting is about consistency. Mechanical consistency will beat human consistency 99.99 times out of 100.

But at a certain point of training and skill... the human will be able to hold still to the .01 percent. At that point, what matters is every mechanical consistency that can be garnered. Accuracy is NOT the term we strive for. You can be accurate to an angstrom once. Consistency is the watch word. Consistent ammunition for the internal ballistics. Because the external ballistics are, by the laws of physics, consistent.

Don't worry about accuracy. Worry about consistency. In your shooting. And, eventually, in your load. Because your rifle will be consistent up until about 10K rounds when the barrel will be shot out. And Consistency will suffer. Until then... It's you. And your ammo. First you. Then your ammo.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
I can't remember but I've been weighing powder to the kernel since I got into long range shooting about 12 years ago. It's just that the tuned SP scale has the sensitivity needed to do it consistently.

I do remember his posts on the 6x47l and all the reamers he had made while getting progressively larger at the .200 line so he could see which cases were blown out more to one side or not, therefor culling the bad ones using that method.
I like alinwa and enjoy his posts, interesting fella - ALWAYS testing interesting stuff
 
  • Like
Reactions: steve123
Hi,

The Haenel RS8 and RS9 are top level weapon systems in all aspects!!

It is far easier to understand how that rifle beat out AI than wrapping head around Barrett beating AI out, ;).

But we will have to see how the tree shakes out from all the upcoming changes in UAE EDIC group of companies...1 of which is Haenel under their Caracal subsidiary.

In regards to big guns...the palletized weapon systems are advancing at a nice pace.
View attachment 7181114

Sincerely,
Theis
How far away would you say the flow-formed Cobalt alloy super long lasting machine gun barrels that I hear about every so often are from actual production/fielding?
 
  • Haha
Reactions: THEIS
How far away would you say the flow-formed Cobalt alloy super long lasting machine gun barrels that I hear about every so often are from actual production/fielding?
About as far away as the carbon fiber, ceramic, fiberglass, titanium-lined , dilithium crystal ones that we were trying to field 20 years ago.

steel barrels still are the best cost/ performance out there. Just make them easy to change. Sooper dooper new materials show promise in labs. Not in the field.

sirhr
 
So a scoped sniper had an 80 percent of the time just under a 3MOA rifle if I did the conversion right?

Not spectacular by our present standards but good enough.

By "our" I mean a bunch of keyboard hobbyists that shoot off benches.

All right next time Ill just use "my".
I'm pretty sure I lost a decimal and forgot to carry the one when I converted from mm to cm, then from cm to inches, then from inches to MOA, but I came up with the same "meh" precision of about 3MOA.