Fireforming Device?

[MarinePMI]

I posted this in the DIY section, but figured I'd post it here as well, since it gets more traffic...

Just wondering out loud here, but was curious about people's thoughts on a fire forming idea...

Like a universal receiver of sorts that accepts a seating die, and has a breech plate with a firing pin (kind of like a cannon breech). This whole thing is mounted to a inexpensive metal lid (say, like that of a metal 55gal drum) and is then locked down onto said 55 gal drum with some sand at the bottom (like a clearing barrel).

The shooter would then load a die formed cartridge with a moderate load, (and the case neck stuff with tissue paper to keep the power from falling out) into the universal receiver (case would be oriented down into the barrel), breech closed, and case would then be fired. The underside of the lid could even have some baffles of sort to limit the noise. Maybe just a stack of sheet metal plates with holes in the center, that were connected or stacked by 3 or 4 rods.

This would allow a relatively inexpensive way to form cases, rather than burn out a barrel forming brass. It also would do away with having a separate fireforming barrel that some use in lieu of their match/competition barrel.

I've been kicking around this idea for a few years now...

Thoughts?

Edit: maybe have a hole in the side of the barrel as well, that another muffler was attached to, to bleed of pressure...

 

[spife7980]

Why not just hydro form?

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[_Raining]

I believe he is talking about fire-forming to your chamber not to a wildcat.

 

[spife7980]

I believe he is talking about fire-forming to your chamber not to a wildcat.

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He would still have to shoot it in his chamber for it to be formed to his chamber, no? Sounds like hes wanting something to make dasher brass or ackley something to me without giving up 10% of the barrel life making brass.
So could you clarify to what ends you are looking to achieve? MarinePMI

 

[MarinePMI]

No, I'm talking about either case actually (wildcatting and just fireforming to a chamber dimension).

I've heard mixed results about hydro forming (as in, it doesn't fully form the case, but gets pretty close). Also, that it can be pretty messy.

I guess I'm just thinking about this because so many would like to fully form a case without burning their barrel out. And I surmise you'd need a lot of pressure in a short amount of time to fully blow the case shoulders out into the die. Hence my thinking of using a seating die (which is what they use for the basis of form dies) that can be screwed into a receiver. You can adjust the die to blow the shoulders forward a tad more than the chamber, then adjust a FL die to bump it back to exactly fit your chamber.

Again, just spit balling here...

 

[flyright]

Watch the Whidden video - haven't tried it but looks pretty cool.

 

[Milo 2.5]

No, I'm talking about either case actually (wildcatting and just fireforming to a chamber dimension).

I've heard mixed results about hydro forming (as in, it doesn't fully form the case, but gets pretty close). Also, that it can be pretty messy.

I guess I'm just thinking about this because so many would like to fully form a case without burning their barrel out. And I surmise you'd need a lot of pressure in a short amount of time to fully blow the case shoulders out into the die. Hence my thinking of using a seating die (which is what they use for the basis of form dies) that can be screwed into a receiver. You can adjust the die to blow the shoulders forward a tad more than the chamber, then adjust a FL die to bump it back to exactly fit your chamber.

Again, just spit balling here...

I can see hydro forming a 2 step procedure, hydro form, then shoot to actually get a decent shoulder angle. FF loads can be every bit as accurate as a finished load, I'm not seeing the need here. Buy enough brass the first go, I'm sure FF mid barrel a losing proposition.

IMO, you are just looking for a way to injure yourself, sorry.

If you're looking to start a FF business, get a dedicated Rem 700, barrel vise, assorted barrels, do it right.

 

[MarinePMI]

I can see hydro forming a 2 step procedure, hydro form, then shoot to actually get a decent shoulder angle. FF loads can be every bit as accurate as a finished load, I'm not seeing the need here. Buy enough brass the first go, I'm sure FF mid barrel a losing proposition.

IMO, you are just looking for a way to injure yourself, sorry.

If you're looking to start a FF business, get a dedicated Rem 700, barrel vise, assorted barrels, do it right.

Yes, I am very familiar with fire forming loads being as accurate (and sometimes more so) as formed loads.

As to looking to injure myself, no. I am trying to merely think outside the box (you know, how innovation occurs?).

The main intent here is to form brass (like Dasher, Ackley Hornet, etc.) without having to go to the range which is 35 mins away, and open only on certain days. The ability to tweak the headspace/shoulder of the formed case, is where it could be used to custom fit brass to a chamber without burning the barrel in the process.

Finally, no, this is not to start a FF business. My day job pays me quite well, and burdens enough of my hours in the day that I don't have the time or desire to start a FF business.

I am only looking at this from a "what if you could" perspective.

I hope that is enough information to constrain any other condescending remarks...

 

[MarinePMI]

I would add that the use case, or driver behind this thought exercise is that for many of us, range time is expensive (and not in the monetary sense). For many in urban areas, components (and their costs) are not the challenge, range time is. Many of us would rather spend time practicing long range shooting, and not spend what little (and valuable) time we have at the range fucking around with forming cases. If we can do that (fire form cases) at home in the garage or back yard, then the limited range time can be better put to use in training.

I'm thinking that a De'Haas style vault lock might be a simple (and safe) way to make a firing mechanism. Bleeding the pressure out of the barrel (much like a giant suppressor) would be a technical challenge. A steel barrel should provide enough volume (and strength) for the gases to expand (again, like an expansion chamber in modern suppressor design). The internal baffles and sand in the steel barrel should catch/stop the wad that keeps the powder in the case prior to ignition.

 

[MarinePMI]

Watch the Whidden video - haven't tried it but looks pretty cool.

I'll give that a look...

 

[Milo 2.5]

Yes, I am very familiar with fire forming loads being as accurate (and sometimes more so) as formed loads.

As to looking to injure myself, no. I am trying to merely think outside the box (you know, how innovation occurs?).

The main intent here is to form brass (like Dasher, Ackley Hornet, etc.) without having to go to the range which is 35 mins away, and open only on certain days. The ability to tweak the headspace/shoulder of the formed case, is where it could be used to custom fit brass to a chamber without burning the barrel in the process.

Finally, no, this is not to start a FF business. My day job pays me quite well, and burdens enough of my hours in the day that I don't have the time or desire to start a FF business.

I am only looking at this from a "what if you could" perspective.

I hope that is enough information to constrain any other condescending remarks...

OK, I was not in the least talking down to you, your comment on using a non hardened seating die to accomplish this task is where I joined in. Have at it.

 

[MarinePMI]

OK, I was not in the least talking down to you, your comment on using a non hardened seating die to accomplish this task is where I joined in. Have at it.

Last time I checked, barrels were not hardened steel, I doubt a die would need to be (considering the pressures will be quite lower, and the universal receiver substantially a lot more massive).

Your line of:

"FF loads can be every bit as accurate as a finished load, I'm not seeing the need here. Buy enough brass the first go, I'm sure FF mid barrel a losing proposition.

IMO, you are just looking for a way to injure yourself, sorry."

Tends to come across as very condescending (as do many of your posts I have seen).

"Condescend - to act in a way that suggests that one considers oneself better than other people" (or more informed as the case may be).

Your comment about the accuracy of fire forming loads, and that I was somehow not aware of that, was condescending. As was your comment that you just thought I was going to injure myself.

It's not that I'm not use to it, actually I'm very used to it, since as an R&D engineer, I get this attitude quite a lot (unfortunately), so I tend to recognize it fairly easily.

Finally, you added zero thought to this discussion (other than your "its not worth it" comment), so why even respond? (Again, I've seen this trend in your posts here.)

Take it for what it is...

Do you have anything constructive to contribute to this discussion?

 

[Strykervet]

I think what he's getting at would be if you could take one original piece of fireformed brass (done the old fashioned way) and have a die constructed around that which would function like a removable chamber. Then insert that in his universal rig and use that to fireform further cases without using the barrel.

I have an idea.

They do make universal receivers with cannon type breeches that they use for testing loads (you could even set it up to measure pressure, that'd be really nice!) they look super simple but I'd suspect making one yourself would be best, cost less. Anyway, you take solid barrel blanks and have those chambered identical to the rifles you are using. Generally thick, solid blanks are used since it's not going in a rifle and needs no profile and the extra strength in the blank is desirable. Different calibers can easily be used because all external blank dimensions are identical. Also it's easier and cheaper to make, just chamber and thread the end for the universal receiver and you are good to go. No need for dies here, the barrel's chamber is cut to match the fireformed brass in order to best approximate the chamber on your rifle.

You could use hand cast lead bullets instead of working out a more complicated way of obtaining optimum pressure and you could recover the spent lead slugs over time from the bottom of the clearing barrel, melt it down and re-cast more for no extra cost. Firing directly down into large (concrete?) cylinder of water or sand buried would be idea with a removable top. With water, a basket could be used to pull the slugs back up from the bottom. Doesn't take much water to stop a bullet, Mythbusters tried it out with up to .50BMG.

Would that work? Would it not be cheaper and simpler to do? I'm kinda interested in this now that you bring it up. With a .50BMG and a .338LM, having a way of fireforming cases without having to use the barrel would be nice. If you have a shop and can do this work yourself, this would be an awesome way to go I think. Chambers would have to be IDENTICAL and it'd probably be ideal to have the rifle barrel and the fireforming barrel cut at the same time, but they do cut dies from fireformed brass, so I don't see why those dimensions couldn't be cut that way into a blank vs. a die.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Last time I checked, barrels were not hardened steel, I doubt a die would need to be (considering the pressures will be quite lower, and the universal receiver substantially a lot more massive).

Your line of:

"FF loads can be every bit as accurate as a finished load, I'm not seeing the need here. Buy enough brass the first go, I'm sure FF mid barrel a losing proposition.

IMO, you are just looking for a way to injure yourself, sorry."

Tends to come across as very condescending (as do many of your posts I have seen).

"Condescend - to act in a way that suggests that one considers oneself better than other people" (or more informed as the case may be).

Your comment about the accuracy of fire forming loads, and that I was somehow not aware of that, was condescending. As was your comment that you just thought I was going to injure myself.

It's not that I'm not use to it, actually I'm very used to it, since as an R&D engineer, I get this attitude quite a lot (unfortunately), so I tend to recognize it fairly easily.

Finally, you added zero thought to this discussion (other than your "its not worth it" comment), so why even respond? (Again, I've seen this trend in your posts here.)

Take it for what it is...

Do you have anything constructive to contribute to this discussion?

Ok, I apologize, I don't view FF as that much of a task if I want to shoot that case, apparently you do, no matter what you come up with to save barrel life, it will continue to be a pain in ones ass.
Good luck in your endeavor, I wish you the best. But if you market it, I will be the first not to buy the product.

 

[MarinePMI]

I think what he's getting at would be if you could take one original piece of fireformed brass (done the old fashioned way) and have a die constructed around that which would function like a removable chamber. Then insert that in his universal rig and use that to fireform further cases without using the barrel.

I have an idea.

They do make universal receivers with cannon type breeches that they use for testing loads (you could even set it up to measure pressure, that'd be really nice!) they look super simple but I'd suspect making one yourself would be best, cost less. Anyway, you take solid barrel blanks and have those chambered identical to the rifles you are using. Generally thick, solid blanks are used since it's not going in a rifle and needs no profile and the extra strength in the blank is desirable. Different calibers can easily be used because all external blank dimensions are identical. Also it's easier and cheaper to make, just chamber and thread the end for the universal receiver and you are good to go. No need for dies here, the barrel's chamber is cut to match the fireformed brass in order to best approximate the chamber on your rifle.

You could use hand cast lead bullets instead of working out a more complicated way of obtaining optimum pressure and you could recover the spent lead slugs over time from the bottom of the clearing barrel, melt it down and re-cast more for no extra cost. Firing directly down into large (concrete?) cylinder of water or sand buried would be idea with a removable top. With water, a basket could be used to pull the slugs back up from the bottom. Doesn't take much water to stop a bullet, Mythbusters tried it out with up to .50BMG.

Would that work? Would it not be cheaper and simpler to do? I'm kinda interested in this now that you bring it up. With a .50BMG and a .338LM, having a way of fireforming cases without having to use the barrel would be nice. If you have a shop and can do this work yourself, this would be an awesome way to go I think. Chambers would have to be IDENTICAL and it'd probably be ideal to have the rifle barrel and the fireforming barrel cut at the same time, but they do cut dies from fireformed brass, so I don't see why those dimensions couldn't be cut that way into a blank vs. a die.

I see what you're saying here, and yes, I am familiar with the pressure guns (also referred to as a "universal receiver"). But those cost (last time I priced one for a ballistics lab being built) they were $10k, and had a six month waiting list. IIRC, they were made by a gentleman in Texas, who I was talking to at SHOT Show one year, on behalf of the folks building the ballistics lab. FWIW was worth, they were only back logged then due to Hodgdon buying Winchester and Alliant, and much of the legacy reloading data for the powders was disparate (a mix match of CUP, PSI and between the companies. As such, they were putting in a large order of pressure guns to rectify the issues, and standardize the data. But I digress...

I guess what I am trying to noodle out here is, can something be made much cheaper, since the precision of a pressure barrel is not needed? This is also why I am going down the thought/logic route of using a standard, off-the-shelf seating die. They cost what, $25 a piece. Hell, I suppose you could just have the die manufacturer run the die reamer a couple thousandths over max SAAMI/CIP spec, and call it a "fire forming die" for this mechanism we're discussing. This would make the fire formed case overly long for any chamber, and could then be FL resized to fit a specific chamber (by just using the normal FL sizing adjustments in a press). The other benefit to this, would be that the die manufacturer would not be required to tool up something different, since this would just be a dimensional change, and actually wouldn't require the additional threading operation for the seating stem. It would keep the cost relatively low, and "only" impact the production cycle.

This method of making the cases overly long was one that I had with a company that was contemplating making wildcat brass, but had concerns over varying chamber dimensions (and associated liability). My business partner and I just recommended that they make the cases overly long, thereby forcing the shooter to FL resize to fit their chamber. The plan was to just label the boxes with a disclaimer stating that "Cartridge brass must be Full Length size before use to ensure fitting in a wildcat chamber" (or something to that effect). This would make the case IDENTICAL to the shooter's chamber. But I digress again...

The one thing you mentioned that does raise a question in my mind, is the thickness of a standard die. Just "off a bar napkin" math would say it should be, but am curious if the die would expand over repeated firings. Hmmm...

As to wads, I was thinking of a paper hole punch, that was caliber specific, and could use normal cardboard box material. Just punch out a bunch of plugs into a zip lock bag while watching the news. Casting bullets is a whole other process that would make fire forming a chore. Again, I think the idea is doable, but the intent of this is to minimize the time involved. The cardboard plug would also be much easier to stop than a lead slug.

I'm thinking a bulky low pressure powder (like Trail Boss) could be used as a forming load, and limit someone doing something stupid like double charging a case, as has happened with Blue Dot loads in the past.

 

[MarinePMI]

Ok, I apologize, I don't view FF as that much of a task if I want to shoot that case, apparently you do, no matter what you come up with to save barrel life, it will continue to be a pain in ones ass.
Good luck in your endeavor, I wish you the best. But if you market it, I will be the first not to buy the product.

Fair enough. I've got quite a few wildcat chambered rifles in the safe (at least 8 off the top of my head), so for me, it is a pain.

Also, with the proliferation of quick change barreled rifles these days, I also wonder if the timing is right for this concept, since it seems there is always some "new & improved" flavor of the month/year, and more people are now able to quickly move to these new chamberings.

Like the internet, computers and other things, the velocity of change is increasing in the shooting community as well. This concept may be something that enables the masses to embrace that increased velocity of change, and thereby contribute across a wider community to the sport. Call it crowd sourced cartridge R&D...the easier it is to shoot a new case, the more people shooting it, which equals more real world performance data to justify or debunk claims.

 

[_Raining]

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He would still have to shoot it in his chamber for it to be formed to his chamber, no? Sounds like hes wanting something to make dasher brass or ackley something to me without giving up 10% of the barrel life making brass.
So could you clarify to what ends you are looking to achieve? MarinePMI

I assumed he was going to get a die custom made with the same reamer as his chamber.