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Rifle Scopes First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

Swift

Swift

Chief Bagel Technician
Full Member
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Aug 4, 2010
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Cleveland, OH
My check from Uncle Sam is finally in the mail and it's time to buy my first real scope. It will be mounted on a LAR 308 and it will be used primarily for paper punching (hopefully) to 1,000 yards. Most time will be spent around 4-500. Weight isn't a factor as this will be a prone gun.

Ok now that that's out of the way, I have given myself a budget of $1,800 and the two best candidates I have settled on so far are the Nightforce 3.5-15 with the NP-R1 and the USO ST10 with GAP, EREK, ERGO, etc.

I know these kinds of questions come up at least 237 times a week, but this is my first serious scope purchase, and a good chunk of change, so I want to make sure I get it right.

I haven't fallen in love with any of the mil/mil reticle options that Nightforce offers, but I can settle for MOA adjustments. The ST10 has matching mil reticle and adjustments in a smaller size for a little less money but is a fixed 10x.

Don't flame, I just want to ensure I make a good, informed decision. I've used the search function, I'm familiar with the features/advantages/disadvantages of both scopes, and no, I don't have the ability to go look at em both. Hillbillies up here hunt on a budget so stores mainly stock low end stuff. I just want the most scope that I can buy for around $1,800. Once you get to $2k+ it opens up a whole world of options that will quickly hike your bill way further than you thought so I'm gonna stick with that number.

If you have anything else to throw into the mix, feel free.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

Theres a USO gift certificate for $2500 someone is selling in classifieds for $1900
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

depends on what shooting system you like more, personally i would run a 5.5-22x56 npr1 and be happy, but if you really want to use mils, the mlr is the pick there.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Opticsspecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">depends on what shooting system you like more, personally i would run a 5.5-22x56 npr1 and be happy, but if you really want to use mils, the mlr is the pick there. </div></div>

I'd prefer mil/mil but I'm not sure it makes enough of a difference to offset the reticle choices. I have about equal time behind a mil scope and an MOA scope but dialing small adjustments at longer ranges is just a bit easier for me with mrads. Not really a dealbreaker, though.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

I'll also check into the gift certificate in the classifieds. That could get you a nicely optioned SN3.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

IOR 3-18x50? If you could get a USO gift certificate that'd be pretty nice too. I've thought about a tricked out SN3 but I'm just not head over heels for their reticles.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DieTrying310</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IOR 3-18x50? If you could get a USO gift certificate that'd be pretty nice too. I've thought about a tricked out SN3 but I'm just not head over heels for their reticles. </div></div>

Man to each his own but I can't believe you're not a fan of their reticles. They're just :drool. Anyways, a tricked out SN3 would be sweet. I haven't been able to locate the thread with the gift certificate. Am I dumb?
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

Look at the Vortex Razor. In your price range. Call Scott at Liberty Optics and tell him you are a Hide member.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DieTrying310</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IOR 3-18x50? If you could get a USO gift certificate that'd be pretty nice too. I've thought about a tricked out SN3 but I'm just not head over heels for their reticles. </div></div>

Man to each his own but I can't believe you're not a fan of their reticles. They're just :drool. Anyways, a tricked out SN3 would be sweet. I haven't been able to locate the thread with the gift certificate. Am I dumb? </div></div>

Looks like it got snatched up yesterday: http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2504379&gonew=1#UNREAD
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

+1 NXS 5.5-22 mrad mlr. Buy once cry once. For your price range and what you want to do...sounds like a perfect match.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

My Nightforce just came in the mail. This is one serious scope. I went with 3.5-15 with the NP-R1.

I decided to save a couple bucks and go moa as opposed to mil. That's just preference though.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

I ended up at the same 2 scopes when I researched for mine. I ended up going for the Nightforce for the variable power settings. Give Jay a call @ Sport Optics a call. Great guy to deal with.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DieTrying310</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DieTrying310</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IOR 3-18x50? If you could get a USO gift certificate that'd be pretty nice too. I've thought about a tricked out SN3 but I'm just not head over heels for their reticles. </div></div>

Man to each his own but I can't believe you're not a fan of their reticles. They're just :drool. Anyways, a tricked out SN3 would be sweet. I haven't been able to locate the thread with the gift certificate. Am I dumb? </div></div>

Looks like it got snatched up yesterday: http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2504379&gonew=1#UNREAD </div></div>

Hogwash!

So what is it about the ST 10 that people aren't feelin? Or is the Nightforce just that much more for the money? I've been brushing up on minutes of angle and now I remember why I switched to mils. 1 mil is always 1 mil. 1 MOA isn't always 1". I'm starting to think I'm gonna be cursed with the MLR.

Who else makes a high end mil/mil scope with a nice reticle? In a perfect world I'd have a GAP reticle. Never seriously looked into IOR. Just wanna have a backup cuz something about the MLR just really irks me. I think it might be the skeletonized posts.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Who else makes a high end mil/mil scope with a nice reticle? In a perfect world I'd have a GAP reticle. </div></div>

As I posted already in this thread:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the Vortex Razor. In your price range. Call Scott at Liberty Optics and tell him you are a Hide member.</div></div>

EBR-3 reticle is similar to the GAP. Scope has mil/mil, zero stops, FFP, 5-20x, illuminated reticle and excellent customer service. Also in your pricee range.

sub_razor-hd_ebr-3_details.jpg


GAP reticle
GAPreticle.jpg
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Who else makes a high end mil/mil scope with a nice reticle? In a perfect world I'd have a GAP reticle. </div></div>

As I posted already in this thread:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the Vortex Razor. In your price range. Call Scott at Liberty Optics and tell him you are a Hide member.</div></div>

EBR-3 reticle is similar to the GAP. Scope has mil/mil, zero stops, FFP, 5-20x, illuminated reticle and excellent customer service. Also in your pricee range.

sub_razor-hd_ebr-3_details.jpg


GAP reticle
GAPreticle.jpg
</div></div>

I got your PM btw. I don't know much about the Razors but how do they differ from the PST? Both FFP, both mil/mil illum, both have zero stops, both seem to have similar turrets. I'm sure the glass is a few steps up but considering so far a lot of reports coming in on the PST have claimed their glass is CLOSE to Nightforce (note: I said CLOSE), I just don't see what they offer to justify the $1,100 bump from the PST?
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

+1 for Razor. I'm not afraid to save for higher end, but I believe the razor will be my next piece of glass regardless. They just seem to be doing so much right its hard to ignore. Do I expect it to be on par with my S&B? Not really. Do I think it will be absolutely adequate for anything I will ever be doing with my rifle? Yes, and then some, for 60% the cost of another S&B.

If your not 100% sure of the differences between the razor and PST, call vortex or one of our trusted hide optics sponsors and ask some straight forward questions about them.

I'm sure its more than just the glass. The difference is the stuff you cant see. Anyone can slap two expensive pieces of coated glass on two ends of an aluminum tube. Its the internals that really set it apart. repeatability and dependability, every time. The difference between the two is the amount of compromise made to hit a specific price point.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

They are not like the PSTs. The PSTs were made to be a more bargain scope with good features for shooters who want to keep the price tag below $1000 and they do that well. The Razor was made to compete in their price range, which they do well also. The Razors quality is right up there with NF and USO.

A few reviews here on the Hide on the Razors. Here is one from Vu last year.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2112828

Another from Jason
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1686683

The eye box problem mentioned has been taken care of with the new eye piece.

If you look at the specs you will see the differences between the Razor and PSTs.

Just trying to give you some more options. I have owned a few NF, USOs and Razors and I like the features of the Razor out of the 3. They deserve a good look before you spend the money.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Who else makes a high end mil/mil scope with a nice reticle? In a perfect world I'd have a GAP reticle. </div></div>

As I posted already in this thread:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the Vortex Razor. In your price range. Call Scott at Liberty Optics and tell him you are a Hide member.</div></div>

EBR-3 reticle is similar to the GAP. Scope has mil/mil, zero stops, FFP, 5-20x, illuminated reticle and excellent customer service. Also in your pricee range.

sub_razor-hd_ebr-3_details.jpg


GAP reticle
GAPreticle.jpg
</div></div>

I got your PM btw. I don't know much about the Razors but how do they differ from the PST? Both FFP, both mil/mil illum, both have zero stops, both seem to have similar turrets. I'm sure the glass is a few steps up but considering so far a lot of reports coming in on the PST have claimed their glass is CLOSE to Nightforce (note: I said CLOSE), I just don't see what they offer to justify the $1,100 bump from the PST? </div></div>

There is quite a bit of difference. Pretty much every single component on the Razor is of higher quality, from the Glass to the main tube, the turrets, the erector tube, the hardened steel erector tube/turret mating surfaces, Zero stop, twice the amount of travel, etc... Now, will the PST do everything that most people need it to do, absolutely, but if you are looking for a scope that was designed to do and handle pretty much anything anyone could do to it you may want to look at the Razor.



Scott
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott_at_Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Who else makes a high end mil/mil scope with a nice reticle? In a perfect world I'd have a GAP reticle. </div></div>

As I posted already in this thread:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the Vortex Razor. In your price range. Call Scott at Liberty Optics and tell him you are a Hide member.</div></div>

EBR-3 reticle is similar to the GAP. Scope has mil/mil, zero stops, FFP, 5-20x, illuminated reticle and excellent customer service. Also in your pricee range.

sub_razor-hd_ebr-3_details.jpg


GAP reticle
GAPreticle.jpg
</div></div>

I got your PM btw. I don't know much about the Razors but how do they differ from the PST? Both FFP, both mil/mil illum, both have zero stops, both seem to have similar turrets. I'm sure the glass is a few steps up but considering so far a lot of reports coming in on the PST have claimed their glass is CLOSE to Nightforce (note: I said CLOSE), I just don't see what they offer to justify the $1,100 bump from the PST? </div></div>

There is quite a bit of difference. Pretty much every single component on the Razor is of higher quality, from the Glass to the main tube, the turrets, the erector tube, the hardened steel erector tube/turret mating surfaces, Zero stop, twice the amount of travel, etc... Now, will the PST do everything that most people need it to do, absolutely, but if you are looking for a scope that was designed to do and handle pretty much anything anyone could do to it you may want to look at the Razor.



Scott </div></div>

Scott thanks for chiming in. At first glance they look very similar but I guess it's what's inside that counts haha. I have a PST on order with Liberty for another project so maybe I'll keep it all in the family. I'll look into the Razor.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

I own a USO, haven't used any of the other scopes. But based on my experience i would do it all over again. I adore my SN-3. If you truly want the GAP Mil reticle go for it and don't hesitate. I'm eager to try other scopes on the market just to see how they compare to my SN-3 but the SN-3 has been my first "high end" optic and it's spot on.

The Razors and NF are very good, out of those two i would choose the razor, seems like more for the money, FFP, Mil/Mil, 5-20x50mm, and as Rob pointed out the EBR 3 is very similar to the GAP milling reticle.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

Funny... I had a post not too long ago exactly like this. In fact the same 2 scopes. I tend to shoot some longer ranges than what you are describing so I decided to go with the Nightforce. I couldn't be happier. With that said I think that the USO would be bad ass for the distances you wish to shoot. I think its a win/win either way you go.
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DieTrying310</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DieTrying310</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IOR 3-18x50? If you could get a USO gift certificate that'd be pretty nice too. I've thought about a tricked out SN3 but I'm just not head over heels for their reticles. </div></div>

Man to each his own but I can't believe you're not a fan of their reticles. They're just :drool. Anyways, a tricked out SN3 would be sweet. I haven't been able to locate the thread with the gift certificate. Am I dumb? </div></div>

Looks like it got snatched up yesterday: http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2504379&gonew=1#UNREAD </div></div>

Hogwash!

So what is it about the ST 10 that people aren't feelin? Or is the Nightforce just that much more for the money? I've been brushing up on minutes of angle and now I remember why I switched to mils. 1 mil is always 1 mil. 1 MOA isn't always 1". I'm starting to think I'm gonna be cursed with the MLR.

Who else makes a high end mil/mil scope with a nice reticle? In a perfect world I'd have a GAP reticle. Never seriously looked into IOR. Just wanna have a backup cuz something about the MLR just really irks me. I think it might be the skeletonized posts. </div></div>

I think the main reason for no ST10 love is that it's a fixed 10x. Between those 2 scopes I'd go with the NF just because it's going to be more versatile. If you were asking between the NF and an SN3, I'd go with the SN3 every time. I've had many of each brand, still have lots of USO's. The thing that keeps making me get rid of every NF is the 10 MOA/revolution turrets. Even with a .338LM you are still looking at being more than 2.5 turns into your knob to 1k - pretty easy to get lost - especially with no zero stop. I know they have new 20MOA knobs, FFP and zero stop options, but then you are in the same price range as an SN-3.

As far as I'm concerned, the USO has better turrets(by a mile - EREK 1/2 MOA knob with 45MOA per turn can't be beat) more reticles(all FFP), custom-built to user's specs, 100% US made, etc. I prefer the USO glass over the NF on the ones I've used. I've been able to resolve .30 cal holes at 400 yards with a 3.8-22 on good days. Haven't had another scope of any brand that I've been able to do that with.

Keep your eyes on the for sale section - patience will pay off. A really nice 3.2-17 SN-3 just sold yesterday for $1800. I buy everything used, if I don't like something, I can sell it for the same price I paid for it instead of automatically taking a loss on a "new" item. When you get into this territory quality-wise, all of the good companies stand behind their products whether you are the original owner or not.

Good luck,
Erik
 
Re: First big optic purchase NF vs USO ST10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the main reason for no ST10 love is that it's a fixed 10x. Between those 2 scopes I'd go with the NF just because it's going to be more versatile. If you were asking between the NF and an SN3, I'd go with the SN3 every time. I've had many of each brand, still have lots of USO's. The thing that keeps making me get rid of every NF is the 10 MOA/revolution turrets. Even with a .338LM you are still looking at being more than 2.5 turns into your knob to 1k - pretty easy to get lost - especially with no zero stop. I know they have new 20MOA knobs, FFP and zero stop options, but then you are in the same price range as an SN-3.

As far as I'm concerned, the USO has better turrets(by a mile - EREK 1/2 MOA knob with 45MOA per turn can't be beat) more reticles(all FFP), custom-built to user's specs, 100% US made, etc. I prefer the USO glass over the NF on the ones I've used. I've been able to resolve .30 cal holes at 400 yards with a 3.8-22 on good days. Haven't had another scope of any brand that I've been able to do that with.

Keep your eyes on the for sale section - patience will pay off. A really nice 3.2-17 SN-3 just sold yesterday for $1800. I buy everything used, if I don't like something, I can sell it for the same price I paid for it instead of automatically taking a loss on a "new" item. When you get into this territory quality-wise, all of the good companies stand behind their products whether you are the original owner or not.

Good luck,
Erik
</div></div>

I appreciate your comments on the ST10. And I agree that buying used can save a bundle. It's especially comforting knowing that you still have a full lifetime warranty so it's much easier to buy with confidence.

I didn't realize you can get a used SN-3 for that kinda money. I might try my luck in the classifieds for a few weeks before I make a purchase. Until then, my project will collect dust while it get's fitted for glasses.
 
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