Range Report First ever long range session...lots of questions

[FNG5]

I had the opportunity to spend a day with a US army sniper two Saturdays ago on a local range that reaches to 1400 yards. I haven't had that much fun in a long time and I learned a tremendous amount but as the saying goes, the more you know the more you realize you don't know.
The rig:
I was shooting a new to me Remington 308 5r (24" barrel) in its factory hs precision stock. I had a timney trigger installed and set just to the light side of two pounds before this. The scope was on the rifle when I bought it. It is a Zeiss conquest 6.5-20x50 with mil-dot reticle. I was shooting 175 smk's pushed by 43.5 grains of varget, CCI primers, brand new lapua brass, and bullets were seated .009 off the lands. Honest to god all this was a shot in the dark. No pun intended. I had never fired a round through this rifle before I arrived that day. The load was, according to my manuals and data from searching here, a safe load.
The lesson:
We started with the mechanics of long range shooting and worked on body & rifle position for some time before ever getting the ammo out of the truck. My first three shots were approximately 0.65 at 100. I didn't put a caliper on them because that wasn't the focus of the day. They were high and right so we brought it in, fired another three rounds, and this was a little larger but not more than 0.75". We then used his data card for a very similar rifle and load to put me on target at 400 yards. 400-700 was like falling off a log. At 800, I struggled all day but the range owner attested to the fact that his target placement at 800 caused grief for many people. Due to it's location, there is almost minimal feedback from where the round made impact if its not on the steel. 900 turned out to be as far as I could go. My Zeiss was maxed out on elevation and I was using the fourth mil-dot to get on target. I did ring the steel at 900 three times to eliminate the "lucky shot" thought from my mind.
After taking a break to let our rifles cool down a bit, we set up a chrono and shot six rounds through it to get my muzzle velocity. My highest was 2612 and my lowest was 2553.
Here are my questions:
First of all, my scope is on a 20 moa base. I would obviously like to reach farther but am limited by my scope. If I change to a 30 moa base, would the 65 moa internal elevation of the vortex viper PST (vs 45 of the Zeiss) get me out to 1400? I kind of doubt it but I don't know. My next choice would be the vortex razer because mile high shooting sports is running a special on them with a spuhr mount. Also, for this type of shooting would a FFP scope be preferable or no?
Next, I have a very simple reloading setup. I have a basic powder drop, a digital scale and balance scale, and an rcbs single stage press. In order to decrease the spread in MV I assume I will need to individually weigh every single powder charge? Other tips would be appreciated.
Finally, I have replaced the hs precision with a McMillan A5 setup and installed a badger ordnance dbm. I got a deal on the stock because it is a less desirable color. Can these stocks be cerakoted? If not what options short of a rattle can do I have to make this stock not quite so...ugly?
Thanks for taking the time to offer any insight to another FNG. This range has a competition the first saturday of each month and I would like to try for the sake of learning more and more. I have no delusions of winning. I'd be happy to not look like a fool. Please forgive me if I havent used forum accepted terminology for everything. This is all new and I will learn in due time. Thanks again.

 

[rduckwor]

Well, we were all the "FNG" at one time or another and I haven't progressed too damn far from that designation. I'm not an optics savant, but the Vortex is a good change to make. I cannot speak to the mount as I have no experience with that. Is it a 20MOA base or just a flat mount? I ask as I believe that you are likely to want a 20MOA base at the ranges that interest you. The optic; well that seems a reasonable choice to me.

The load:

I have the very same rifle and am curious as to your load.

Mine is 44.4 Gr of Varget with the SMK 175 and I'm no where as close to the lands as are you.

I doubt I could get there with that bullet. Seems my 5R has a very long throat and I'm jumping that bullet about 0.045" Works fine for me and I'm getting 2651 fps average velocity and have gotten excellent accuracy and reproducibility with this loading. Consistency in loading is the key. Weigh each charge and once you find something that works for you and your rifle, DON'T CHANGE until you are forced to make changes due to throat erosion, etc. Then you change only one variable at a a time. Too many times I talk to guys that change stuff willy-nilly and then wonder why their load didn't get better.

Enjoy the learning curve and when it gets frustrating, remember there is excellent advice here and that just about everybody here has had the same experiences.

Good shooting,

 

[rduckwor]

And BTW, here's the very best ballistics calculator you can get for any price and IT'S FREE:

Ballistics Calculator | Applied Ballistics, LLC

 

[FN in MT]

Different rifle and 27.5" barrel, but I'm loading 43.1 of VARGET, Lapua brass, 210M primer and 175's for 2650 fps. I'm seated way out though as my .308 is built on a LA. My ES is 10-15 fps.

My ES variation really lowered once I fireformed in my rifle and minimally resized the neck with a .336" REDDING bushing FL die set. I was 40-50 fps ES initially with new brass.

Sounds like you havea good teacher and your on the right track. Congrats.

As far as the stock....A friend had his colored but it wasn't cerrakote.....Commercially done and it scratches off no better than a rattle can finish. I'd investigate further , there must be a tough coating that works on glass. If not I'd prep it real well and try some Brownells Aluma Hyde. It's worked great for me on magazines, and a fw other items. Prep is the deal though.

Good Luck.

 

[FNG5]

In fairness to everyone, I have to credit my old man with teaching me to reload and for my lifelong interest in accuracy. However he has never done anything like this so he is now asking me questions and its a very odd feeling to go from the student one day to attempting to share my newfound knowledge the next day.
I had read about the aluma-hyde and thought it was a possibility.
I also spoke with the good folks at mile high shooting sports this morning regarding scope selection. The recommendation was to go ahead and go with a mil-mil scope, learn the system and use it. That will add a layer of challenge to this because I am quite used to moa. However a good point was made that when your spotter calls out adjustments in mils, its easier to have your scope adjust in mils. As soon as funds allow, I plan to order the vortex razer with a 0 moa spur mount. The razer has 36 mils of elevation adjustment in 0.1 mil increments.
I appreciate everyone's words of advice. As I said, this is all new to me. As such it is quite expensive getting my equipment up to par. However I am the type of person that sees greater value in a tool that does what I want regardless of price as opposed to a "bargain" tool that only frustrates me. Kind of like a cheap wrench vs expensive one. I prefer the expensive one that makes my wallet bleed instead of my knuckles.

 

[FNG5]

For what its worth, this is the scope:
Vortex Optics: Razer HD: 5-20x50mm - Mil-Radian Turrets - w/ SPUHR MOUNT!! - Mile High Shooting Accessories

And this is the mount:

SP-5002 - 35mm Picatinny Mount 0MIL/0MOA - 1.46"

 

[rduckwor]

Sounds like a plan.

Mils are easy. Think mils; shoot mils. You will like the system.

Keep us posted so we can commiserate with you.

 

[JustG]

All I can contribute is the aluma hyde. Give it a bath in acetone and give 3 light coats. Sit for at least a week!

 

[M40_A1]

However a good point was made that when your spotter calls out adjustments in mils, its easier to have your scope adjust in mils.

Unless I'm trying to center for groups, I always hold for follow up shots. As long as your reticle is in mils, you can do that. Dialing corrections is too slow, but I guess it depends on what you are trying to accomplish, or better, why.

 

[seanhagerty]

Great job. It is a blast hitting the long range targets, it will get in your blood and not leave soon. Sounds like your pal and you did good, hitting targets like that your first time out.

I am going to get flamed for what I am about to say. If you want something that you can stretch out a bit longer than 8-900 yds, you need a different caliber. The 308 seems to run out of steam at about those ranges. Yes, I know lots of folks shoot it to 1000yds. There are better calibers out there.

 

[FNG5]

Well, I do have a Remington XCR 338 Lapua mag. It is still new in the box though. Trust me, its tempting to bust it out and shoot it considering i have a box of new brass and a box of 300 grain smk's for it. However, I figured I would be better served learning the basics and then some with a 308. The 308 seems to be an affordable round to shoot and is obviously tolerant of fools like me. Nothing wrong with saying that there are calibers and cartridges better suited for these distances because that is absolutely true. But these are the rifles I have right now. I am fortunate to have the things I have as well as a range like this ten minutes from my home. I did notice that the man who owns the range and his son were both shooting 260's with muzzle brakes. They let me send a few rounds through their rifles and I enjoyed how minimal the muzzle flip was. Never lost sight picture of the target when I was on the gun correctly.
M40_A1, as of right now all I am trying to accomplish is to learn how to place bullets onto steel plates consistently. Honestly I just did what he told me to do. He made the process very simple and quite enjoyable. Now I need to get some time to go back and try to duplicate or improve upon my results from that day without the advantage of having an experienced shooter coaching me through my mistakes. I need to do this while it is all still fresh in my mind.

 

[jim_k]

Seanhagerty is right; your barrel is too short to shoot 1,000 yards, first off, and that's the practical limit. OK, you could get close to 1400 yards with heavy (190-200 grain) Bergers. But it's not going to make you happy like a 6.5 or 7 mm round. A .308 needs minimum 26", and really more like 29-30" barrel to be competitive at 1,000 yards.
Jim

Correction for full disclosure per Graham post: When I shoot 1,000 yards, I feel that the extra velocity of the longer barrel helps me save points/stay on the gong, when my wind calls are not spot on. Keep in mind, I have never won anything at 1,000 yards. Perhaps others who have won will weigh in, and I suggest listening to them.
Jim

 

[Graham]

First ever long range session...lots of questions

Seanhagerty is right; your barrel is too short to shoot 1,000 yards... A .308 needs minimum 26", and really more like 29-30" barrel to be competitive at 1,000 yards.
Jim

Barrel length has nothing to do with it.

 

[TexasMade]

I had the opportunity to spend a day with a US army sniper two Saturdays ago on a local range that reaches to 1400 yards. I haven't had that much fun in a long time and I learned a tremendous amount but as the saying goes, the more you know the more you realize you don't know.
The rig:
I was shooting a new to me Remington 308 5r (24" barrel) in its factory hs precision stock. I had a timney trigger installed and set just to the light side of two pounds before this. The scope was on the rifle when I bought it. It is a Zeiss conquest 6.5-20x50 with mil-dot reticle. I was shooting 175 smk's pushed by 43.5 grains of varget, CCI primers, brand new lapua brass, and bullets were seated .009 off the lands. Honest to god all this was a shot in the dark. No pun intended. I had never fired a round through this rifle before I arrived that day. The load was, according to my manuals and data from searching here, a safe load.
The lesson:
We started with the mechanics of long range shooting and worked on body & rifle position for some time before ever getting the ammo out of the truck. My first three shots were approximately 0.65 at 100. I didn't put a caliper on them because that wasn't the focus of the day. They were high and right so we brought it in, fired another three rounds, and this was a little larger but not more than 0.75". We then used his data card for a very similar rifle and load to put me on target at 400 yards. 400-700 was like falling off a log. At 800, I struggled all day but the range owner attested to the fact that his target placement at 800 caused grief for many people. Due to it's location, there is almost minimal feedback from where the round made impact if its not on the steel. 900 turned out to be as far as I could go. My Zeiss was maxed out on elevation and I was using the fourth mil-dot to get on target. I did ring the steel at 900 three times to eliminate the "lucky shot" thought from my mind.
After taking a break to let our rifles cool down a bit, we set up a chrono and shot six rounds through it to get my muzzle velocity. My highest was 2612 and my lowest was 2553.
Here are my questions:
First of all, my scope is on a 20 moa base. I would obviously like to reach farther but am limited by my scope. If I change to a 30 moa base, would the 65 moa internal elevation of the vortex viper PST (vs 45 of the Zeiss) get me out to 1400? I kind of doubt it but I don't know. My next choice would be the vortex razer because mile high shooting sports is running a special on them with a spuhr mount. Also, for this type of shooting would a FFP scope be preferable or no?
Next, I have a very simple reloading setup. I have a basic powder drop, a digital scale and balance scale, and an rcbs single stage press. In order to decrease the spread in MV I assume I will need to individually weigh every single powder charge? Other tips would be appreciated.
Finally, I have replaced the hs precision with a McMillan A5 setup and installed a badger ordnance dbm. I got a deal on the stock because it is a less desirable color. Can these stocks be cerakoted? If not what options short of a rattle can do I have to make this stock not quite so...ugly?
Thanks for taking the time to offer any insight to another FNG. This range has a competition the first saturday of each month and I would like to try for the sake of learning more and more. I have no delusions of winning. I'd be happy to not look like a fool. Please forgive me if I havent used forum accepted terminology for everything. This is all new and I will learn in due time. Thanks again.

If i can make a suggestion. Since a 308 is not as ballistic superior or as fast as others, reloading correctly to consistently hit at long range is very important. At the very least, I would weigh every powdercharge or get a rcbs chargemaster and even more important make sure you are using really good BUSHING dies to keep a consistent neck tension. Make sure primer pockets are clean before you put a new primer in. I would advise neck turning if you want to get real serious. I think this will help you the most.

I have 3 vortex razors. Love them

 

[FNG5]

Thank you guys for helping to point me in the correct directions here. I knew my reloading setup was quite basic. Shooting coyotes with a 4000+ fps 40 grain pill out of 26" 22-250 at 400 yards and in is quite simple comparatively speaking. I have spent years doing that and my reloading setup worked just fine when the bullet has the trajectory of a laser beam. At this point for me, I am only competing against myself because I don't have the knowledge, tools, or skillset to compete against anyone else. So on my next trip to the range, if I better my previous performance, I will consider it a successful day. And even if I don't better my previous results it's still a good day because it beats working.

 

[Graham]

First ever long range session...lots of questions

OP,

First, if you have to turn necks you have a custom chamber. There is no need to neck-turn on a factory rifle with a factory chamber.

Second, primer pocket cleanliness makes no difference on paper.

Third, if you have to pay attention to, or change your neck tension for long distance ammo then you are shooting Benchrest or Palma, which are specific shooting disciplines.

Fourth, if your powder charge varies by more than .1 grain you need a better reloading setup. But if .1 grains or less of a powder charge makes a difference on target, then you better start paying attention to your barrel and chamber temperature because that will affect your velocity more than the powder charge difference ever will.

 

[FNG5]

Is this a +/- 0.1 grain which, in my case would give a range of 43.4-43.6? Or do you mean stay on 43.5 for every single powder charge? If its the latter of the two I can tell you that my powder drop can't do that running varget. Any of the extruded powders seem to give my little powder drop a bit of a time. Now with a granular like W748 it will give much better repeatable accuracy on its dropped charge weight.

 

[colson]

FNG5: Good thread. I've got the same rifle as you. I went with a Leupold MK4 with M3 dials because that is what I trained on in the military. The mil scopes seem to be the order of the day now, though.

As far as the stock goes, I'm sticking with the HS stock. The rifle is a consistent .5 MOA gun with FGMM 168; I'll never be a better shooter than that, regardless of stock. I sprayed mine with Krylon, just like we used to do back in the day in the Army. I re-finished the steel with alum hyde before I did the Krylon camo job.

I haven't reloaded in 25 years, but I recall that you don't need anything fancy to produce accurate loads. I did read an article not long ago about a benchrest guy who experimented with reloads and shooting in a 300 yard long wharehouse (zero winds.) His conclusion was that powder charge was not as important as seating depth-by far.

Keep the updates going.

 

[rduckwor]

Is this a +/- 0.1 grain which, in my case would give a range of 43.4-43.6? Or do you mean stay on 43.5 for every single powder charge? If its the latter of the two I can tell you that my powder drop can't do that running varget. Any of the extruded powders seem to give my little powder drop a bit of a time. Now with a granular like W748 it will give much better repeatable accuracy on its dropped charge weight.

If you really want to nail the accuracy of your charges, set your powder drop a little low, drop the charge, transfer to your scale and trickle to the final charge weight. At this stage, a 0.1 Gr variance in charge weight does not hold me back as I have too many other issues to worry with besides nailing the charge to the tenth of grain.

I do try to make certain that all mine are within 0.1 grain of the target weight, but I'm not dumping a +0.1 Gr charge unless I'm on the upper bleeding edge of acceptable charge weights for that cartridge.

Good Luck,

 

[Ring]

i run 40MOA under my razor... i can dial to 2k and still 100y zero

 

[Tempest 455]

I shoot a .308 from a 24" barrel at 1,000 often and also have at 1,100. Ideal no but if you are picky about your loads and figure out what it likes, should be OK.

FWIW, the same load out of my sons 29" barrel is 120 FPS faster.

Also, as always recommended, work up to a safe load. That being said, a friend of mine uses 45.0g Varget/175 SMK in a Lapua case in his Rem 700. It's a hot load but darn accurate at 1,000.

 

[djskit]

When I was starting out, I was shooting a 308 with 175' SMK's. I tried to duplicate the FGM load at around 2600 fps. When I decided to upgrade my load and switched to 44.5 grains of Varget and a 2.8 oal, it made a world of differenct at 1k. Now it was going around 2700 fps and the bullet actually goes where I tell it.

I've switched to 178 Amax and 45 grains of varget - indeed a hot load.

You'll find that the 308 is very forgiving as it relates to OAL and reloading in general. I started at 2.8 and never found reason to vary. I could not even tell you what the jump is.

 

[FNG5]

Sorry I checked out for a bit on this thread. I have been an EMT for five years and we work 24 hour rotations twice per week. The other five days per week I run a small agricultural/pasture service where I clear invasive trees with a big hydraulic saw on one of my skid loaders and the other one runs a grapple and piles up all the cut trees to be burned. We also build new pasture fences and design and build cattle working/sorting facilities. In this neck of the country, mostly everyone takes their cattle out to summer pasture between the 20th of April and the 1st of May so I am trying to meet all of the commitments I have made to the people who have trusted me to do their work. I normally work ~100 hours per week.
I would love to update with more interesting news but really the only thing I have had time to do was pick up some rattle color and acetone at wallymart the other night. Had to run to town to get a pallet of barbed wire so I screwed up enough courage to make a quick run into that disaster. I got half a dozen cans of krylon. All earth tones; khaki, sage, coffee, sand, etc. Some have texture, some have a lot of texture, some are just paint. For now it is all just setting there in my shop because I have never painted a stock before. I am disappointed it can't be cerakoted just because I know the rattle paint won't hold up. I plan to give this a whirl on a piece of scrap 2x4 just to see how it turns out before I decide this is the route I want to go.
I know the paint has nothing to do with all we have discussed. If I can get back to the range between now and early may I'll be surprised. I occasionally have lulls in work. Right now isn't one of them. But that's good because working hard allows me to have a few nice things and contemplate options like the aforementioned vortex razor.
Fwiw, I am taking in all of your inputs and suggestions to help me better myself and my equipment and I appreciate you guys offering them. Djskit, if I may ask, was your OAL measured from the tip of the bullet or from the ogive?
Also, while my time is consumed by work for the next three weeks straight, I would like to drop this rifle off at my gunsmith and have him thread the barrel and install a brake. Can you guys recommend a brake design or make? Or there again is it simply personal preference and any brake is better than no brake?
Thanks again for putting up with the FNG.

 

[mj1995]

I'm looking at this scope (vortex pst mrad *PST-624F1-M*) for my 700p. It seems to be good as I am no expert but the gentleman who owns Ashbury likes the vortex scopes so I guess they must be good. If any one chimes in and says it's crap I guess we both know.

 

[FNG5]

I do take into account reviews and especially personal experiences shared by people here. When simply browsing reviews on the web, one has to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak because regardless of the product there are people who won't like it and will give it a poor review. I did find what seemed to be authentic, unbiased negative reviews of the vortex razor but they were few and far between. IIRC, the adjustment knobs fell off one man's razor. Obviously vortex made it right. My thought on this is that I have been a loyal Leupold supporter for fifteen years. I love their scopes and they perform well. However, in this category, they don't have the internal adjustment range of the razor and that is important to me for shooting a 308 at extended distances. Also, I have always had Leupolds on rugers. Since I have changed rifles to Remington, I figure its also a good time to bust out of the scope rut I have found myself in. So I'll try a razor and hopefully will be completely pleased with everything about it.

 

[rduckwor]

I'm looking at this scope (vortex pst mrad *PST-624F1-M*) for my 700p. It seems to be good as I am no expert but the gentleman who owns Ashbury likes the vortex scopes so I guess they must be good. If any one chimes in and says it's crap I guess we both know.

It's not crap. Trust me.

You will be happy.

 

[eicas]

Great post with some familiar faces from other places. OP please keep us up to date. Others here are in your same boat.