First match; which rifle?

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supratt96

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Dec 22, 2010
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#1
I will be shooting in my first F-class match (first rifle match of any kind, actually) in a few weeks. It will be at 600 yds and consist of three 22 shot strings (including 2 sighters per string), twenty two minutes per string.

I have 3 rifles I am considering using and could use some expert advise.
1. RRA AR 15 with 24", 8:1 twist heavy barrel. NF 5.5x22x50 scope.
2. Custom AR in 6mm AR Turbo 40 Imp, 24", 1:8 twist medium heavy barrel, NF 5.5x22x50 scope.
3. Cooper M22 in 6mm Remington, 26" medium contour, 1:10 twist barrel, 6.5x20x50 Zeiss Conquest scope.

Although the Cooper is a slower twist, it shoots Berger 95gr VLDs very well. All tree rifles are very accurate, but the Cooper and the custom AR are especially accurate. The Cooper has a major advantage in velocity, but gives a little up in wind drift with the lighter/lower BC bullets. It will also undoubtedly get much hotter than the other two. However, it is a bolt gun, and from what I gather, bolt guns are a little easier to shoot at long range than ARs.

What say you all?
 
#2
Re: First match; which rifle?

Go with whichever bucks the wind best.

The flattest shooting cartridge in the world doesn't mean squat then the range to the target is known and static.
 
#7
Re: First match; which rifle?

I'd go with #2 if you can shoot it accurately. I'm assuming you can.
Windage is always the biggest killer in a LR comp. If you can narrow that down, (you can never beat it) it helps tremendously.

No matter what the velocity of a round is, you can always adjust for elevation. Up to the transonic range in most cases anyways. What you can't adjust for is when wind wants to take your bullet on a course you didn't predict. Less windage variation means higher score.
 
#10
Re: First match; which rifle?

I'm not familiar with the 6mm Turbo, but I tend to agree with what everyone else is saying about wind bucking vs adjusting for elevation. Go with the round that is gonna be less effected by the wind... It would be helpfull to know the loads you're running in these guns (BC's, bullet weight and velocity) so we could give you a more informed suggestion.

-SBS
 
#12
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go with whichever bucks the wind best.

The flattest shooting cartridge in the world doesn't mean squat then the range to the target is known and static. </div></div>

AMEN.... All new shooters try to pick flat shooters. This only applies if you're shooting at a range where your scope runs out of adjustment. In your case at 600 your scopes are fine with the drop you're going to have so the only variable is wind. As he stated pick the one with the lowest wind drift and let her rip.

Good luck,
Merritt
 
#13
Re: First match; which rifle?

Which one do you shoot best at 600 yards? Or better said, which can you shoot the best in the wind.

I'll agree with the above poster 100%, static targets and known distances, the only variable is the wind. The reality is as long as you're reasonably accurate and can shoot, it's a wind reading competition.
 
#17
Re: First match; which rifle?

Ok, I ran my favorite loads for each rifle through a ballistic calculator and there is a clear winner, ballistically speaking. Here are the numbers for each:

1. AR 15 (.223) 75gr Berger VLD at 2800 fps MV: at 600 yds, -93.7" elevation, 34.9" wind drift (10 mph, full value)

2. AR 15 (6mm AR Turbo 40 Imp) 105gr Berger VLD at 2750 fps MV: at 600 yds, -89.6 elevation, 28.3" wind drift (10 mph, full value)

3. Cooper M22 (6mm Rem.) 95gr Berger VLD at 3200 fps MV: at 600 yds, -64.1" elevation, 24.1" wind drift (10 mph, full value)

Although the Cooper wins the numbers game, it has to burn 58% more powder and generate 450 fps more MV than the 6mm AR Turbo 40 to generate only 4.2" less wind drift. Is this a worthwhile trade off?

I have one of the .260 Remington, TRG-22s on order from Euro Optics. I thought I would have it by now, but delivery is already 4 months behind and still no solid delivery date. When/if that rifle comes in, it will be my go to rifle for future LR matches. No more having to choose between marginal rifles.

Any other tips from the Hide crew would be welcome. I am really looking forward to this.

Thanks, guys.
 
#19
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, I ran my favorite loads for each rifle through a ballistic calculator and there is a clear winner, ballistically speaking. Here are the numbers for each:

1. AR 15 (.223) 75gr Berger VLD at 2800 fps MV: at 600 yds, -93.7" elevation, 34.9" wind drift (10 mph, full value)

2. AR 15 (6mm AR Turbo 40 Imp) 105gr Berger VLD at 2750 fps MV: at 600 yds, -89.6 elevation, 28.3" wind drift (10 mph, full value)

3. Cooper M22 (6mm Rem.) 95gr Berger VLD at 3200 fps MV: at 600 yds, -64.1" elevation, 24.1" wind drift (10 mph, full value)

Although the Cooper wins the numbers game, it has to burn 58% more powder and generate 450 fps more MV than the 6mm AR Turbo 40 to generate only 4.2" less wind drift. Is this a worthwhile trade off?

I have one of the .260 Remington, TRG-22s on order from Euro Optics. I thought I would have it by now, but delivery is already 4 months behind and still no solid delivery date. When/if that rifle comes in, it will be my go to rifle for future LR matches. No more having to choose between marginal rifles.

Any other tips from the Hide crew would be welcome. I am really looking forward to this.

Thanks, guys. </div></div>

4 inches can make a difference if your shooting for points on paper. That's not a huge difference, but it is a difference. If you shoot 6mm much better than the .260 I would say go with the 6mm. All things being equal as a far as your shooting skills go, I would take the .260, just my 2 cents.

-SBS
 
#20
Re: First match; which rifle?

The difference between the 6mm AR and the 6 mm Rem is not that great.

Pick whichever of the two you will have the most fun with. Just so you go in with the right perspective and expectations, it is exceedingly rare that someone wins even a club match on their very first go.
 
#21
Re: First match; which rifle?

In F class you know the distances so pick based on wind. If one rifle is noticeablely less accurate than another, eliminate it from the selection process. Sounds like you'll do well regardless of what you pick. Good shooting!
 
#24
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try 30.2 grains of H4895 in your Turbo 40.I'm getting 2915 fps out of mine with a 26" Krieger with 105 amax.</div></div>

What barrel do you have. Mine's a 24" Pac Nor.
 
#25
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try 30.2 grains of H4895 in your Turbo 40.I'm getting 2915 fps out of mine with a 26" Krieger with 105 amax.</div></div>

What barrel do you have. Mine's a 24" Pac Nor.</div></div>

Ooops. You said that in your post, lol. My ADD kicking in again.

Thanks for the info. I'll give that load a try.
 
#26
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try 30.2 grains of H4895 in your Turbo 40.I'm getting 2915 fps out of mine with a 26" Krieger with 105 amax.</div></div>

What barrel do you have. Mine's a 24" Pac Nor.</div></div>

Ooops. You said that in your post, lol. My ADD kicking in again.

Thanks for the info. I'll give that load a try.</div></div>

Lakeway,

Any flavor of 4895 (AA2495 too) should do well. It depends on the gas tube length (I'm assuming full rifle length on your 24" barrel) and you may actually get a smidge more velocity using Varget or RE-15 in the 6mm AR Turbo case. You don't want to use any slower powders than those because you could get to high of gas pressure at your port. Work those up as hot as you can get them with the heavier bullets. Pay attention to how the recoil impulse feels. If you can feel the bolt slamming back into the reciever, (even without signs of pressure on the case) <span style="text-decoration: underline">Stop</span>. You can start working up again with the heavier 115gr. bullets. Which will give you even better windage numbers.
 
#27
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try 30.2 grains of H4895 in your Turbo 40.I'm getting 2915 fps out of mine with a 26" Krieger with 105 amax.</div></div>

What barrel do you have. Mine's a 24" Pac Nor.</div></div>

Ooops. You said that in your post, lol. My ADD kicking in again.

Thanks for the info. I'll give that load a try.</div></div>

Lakeway,

Any flavor of 4895 (AA2495 too) should do well. It depends on the gas tube length (I'm assuming full rifle length on your 24" barrel) and you may actually get a smidge more velocity using Varget or RE-15 in the 6mm AR Turbo case. You don't want to use any slower powders than those because you could get to high of gas pressure at your port. Work those up as hot as you can get them with the heavier bullets. Pay attention to how the recoil impulse feels. If you can feel the bolt slamming back into the reciever, (even without signs of pressure on the case) <span style="text-decoration: underline">Stop</span>. You can start working up again with the heavier 115gr. bullets. Which will give you even better windage numbers.</div></div>

I have used (and still use) all the powders you referenced and they all have performed well. I believe I have seen slightly better accuracy from h4895. I have tried most of the loads that Robert Whitley shows on his sight, but have found some of the higher end ones to be a bit hot for my rifle. I don't have a chronograph yet, so I don't know my exact velocities.

Robert said he felt the 115s were too heavy for this round to use effectively, but maybe you have a particularly stout chamber. The heaviest bullet I have tried to date is the Sierra 107. Shot pretty well, but for range practice, I found the 95gr and 88gr Bergers to be preferable. Since I may start using this rifle in competition now, I will work up some loads with the heavier bullets and see how it goes.

Thanks again.
 
#28
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">#3 pops out at me, I would be a little concerned shooting an AR platform(mag fed). Just my opinion.
SScott </div></div>
It's easy to do. Ask any service rifle shooter.
 
#29
Re: First match; which rifle?

I did a JBM for the numbers on the 6mm AR turbo using 115 Bergers @ 2700. The wind drift on that (using Litz) is 26" So, you'd still be losing a couple inches. I'd agree then. It's not worth it. As you noted the 6mm Rem is still getting the best numbers with using the '95's.

Good luck.
 
#30
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a JBM for the numbers on the 6mm AR turbo using 115 Bergers @ 2700. The wind drift on that (using Litz) is 26" So, you'd still be losing a couple inches. I'd agree then. It's not worth it. As you noted the 6mm Rem is still getting the best numbers with using the '95's.

Good luck.</div></div>

Thanks for checking that. I've heard that the large capacity 6mms with fast twist barrels are getting pretty popular in the long range competition circles. After running the numbers, it's easy to see why.
 
#32
Re: First match; which rifle?

i'm shooting my first 600yd F-class match tomorrow and i went trough the same thing, what rifle to use?
pick the one you shoot the best with.
did you do some 20 round practice strings?
 
#33
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawkeye2005</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would probably go with #2, shooting a match with the Cooper will void the warranty. </div></div>
Are you serious?
 
#34
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawkeye2005</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would probably go with #2, shooting a match with the Cooper will void the warranty. </div></div>

How would they know?
 
#36
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawkeye2005</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would probably go with #2, shooting a match with the Cooper will void the warranty. </div></div>

What?? Are you trying to buy this from him??
laugh.gif
laugh.gif
 
#37
Re: First match; which rifle?

I generally shoot 20 to 40 rounds per range visit, but not at the fire rate that would be required at a match. I don't want to stress my barrel un-neccessarily. A 6mm Rem. heats up pretty fast. This is really my only concern with this rifle.

I don't get much practice time these days due to my work schedule, so I'm not expecting to really be competitive. Just looking for a good time and to dip my toes in the competitive rifle circle. Since my rifle is sighted for 100 yds and I will not have an opportunity to sight in at 600 till the match actually begins, I figure I'll be lucky to even get on paper the first string.
 
#38
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawkeye2005</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would probably go with #2, shooting a match with the Cooper will void the warranty. </div></div>
Are you serious?</div></div>

+1

A rifle with a warranty that's voided if you shoot it? How does that work??

It's using the product for the purpose it was designed??

If this is right, that's a good reason not to buy in my opinion

crazy.gif
confused.gif


 
#40
Re: First match; which rifle?

Well, what I'd do is this,

Take all three out for a 600 yard range day. Shoot them each 22 rounds in a time limit of 22 minutes with the intended load, and compare results.

The choice should be fairly easy to make.
 
#41
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, what I'd do is this,

Take all three out for a 600 yard range day. Shoot them each 22 rounds in a time limit of 22 minutes with the intended load, and compare results.

The choice should be fairly easy to make.</div></div>

I wish it was that simple. Problem is, I'm not a member at the club that is sponsoring the shoot, and they don't allow non-members to shoot there (even as guests) except for matches.

The range I belong to only goes out to 100 yds but is only 20 minutes away. The club with the 600 yd facilities is over an hour away and has a waiting list to join.

I own a small business and work 7 days a week. I usually try to get out one or two days a month to shoot on days I can skip out of work a little early (usually Sundays). For me to take a day off is a BIG DEAL, so it only happens on rare occassions.
 
#42
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I generally shoot 20 to 40 rounds per range visit, but not at the fire rate that would be required at a match. I don't want to stress my barrel un-neccessarily.</div></div>
You do realize that you have 22 minutes to get 22 shots off per string of fire and that you will be in the pits or scoring when not shooting, right?

You are overthinking this particular point, IMO.
 
#43
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, what I'd do is this,

Take all three out for a 600 yard range day. Shoot them each 22 rounds in a time limit of 22 minutes with the intended load, and compare results.

The choice should be fairly easy to make.</div></div>

I wish it was that simple. Problem is, I'm not a member at the club that is sponsoring the shoot, and they don't allow non-members to shoot there (even as guests) except for matches.

The range I belong to only goes out to 100 yds but is only 20 minutes away. The club with the 600 yd facilities is over an hour away and has a waiting list to join.

I own a small business and work 7 days a week. I usually try to get out one or two days a month to shoot on days I can skip out of work a little early (usually Sundays). For me to take a day off is a BIG DEAL, so it only happens on rare occassions.

</div></div>



Okay.....I'll bite. Montanamarine had the best reply to you're issue. F-Class is not a one shot one kill competition, it's a twenty shot for record competition. Because of this, a few things change.

If you just want to do this for fun, this is what you need to do. Since you don't have access to a 600yd range for testing, take all three rifles out to your 100yd range and set your scopes up for a 600yd zero. Then shoot all three in the match, a different rifle on each string. Don't worry about your score, instead pay attention to which one actually GROUPS the best. Then next time you shoot a match you'll know which rifle to take with you.

Watching your ES/SD on a chrono and group evaluation at 100yds can be a good indicator of 600yd performance, but not always. I've seen rifles with ES of 15fps throw 8 inches of vertical at 600yd. Yet I've een guns with ES of 40-50fps that have less than 2 inches of vertical spread.

The point of this rant is this: Go out there and test all three at 600yd because you really have no idea what your rifles are capable of.
 
#44
Re: First match; which rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308isgreat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, what I'd do is this,

Take all three out for a 600 yard range day. Shoot them each 22 rounds in a time limit of 22 minutes with the intended load, and compare results.

The choice should be fairly easy to make.</div></div>

I wish it was that simple. Problem is, I'm not a member at the club that is sponsoring the shoot, and they don't allow non-members to shoot there (even as guests) except for matches.

The range I belong to only goes out to 100 yds but is only 20 minutes away. The club with the 600 yd facilities is over an hour away and has a waiting list to join.

I own a small business and work 7 days a week. I usually try to get out one or two days a month to shoot on days I can skip out of work a little early (usually Sundays). For me to take a day off is a BIG DEAL, so it only happens on rare occassions.

</div></div>



Okay.....I'll bite. Montanamarine had the best reply to you're issue. F-Class is not a one shot one kill competition, it's a twenty shot for record competition. Because of this, a few things change.

If you just want to do this for fun, this is what you need to do. Since you don't have access to a 600yd range for testing, take all three rifles out to your 100yd range and set your scopes up for a 600yd zero. Then shoot all three in the match, a different rifle on each string. Don't worry about your score, instead pay attention to which one actually GROUPS the best. Then next time you shoot a match you'll know which rifle to take with you.

Watching your ES/SD on a chrono and group evaluation at 100yds can be a good indicator of 600yd performance, but not always. I've seen rifles with ES of 15fps throw 8 inches of vertical at 600yd. Yet I've een guns with ES of 40-50fps that have less than 2 inches of vertical spread.

The point of this rant is this: Go out there and test all three at 600yd because you really have no idea what your rifles are capable of.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308isgreat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lakeway</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, what I'd do is this,

Take all three out for a 600 yard range day. Shoot them each 22 rounds in a time limit of 22 minutes with the intended load, and compare results.

The choice should be fairly easy to make.</div></div>

I wish it was that simple. Problem is, I'm not a member at the club that is sponsoring the shoot, and they don't allow non-members to shoot there (even as guests) except for matches.

The range I belong to only goes out to 100 yds but is only 20 minutes away. The club with the 600 yd facilities is over an hour away and has a waiting list to join.

I own a small business and work 7 days a week. I usually try to get out one or two days a month to shoot on days I can skip out of work a little early (usually Sundays). For me to take a day off is a BIG DEAL, so it only happens on rare occassions.

</div></div>



Okay.....I'll bite. Montanamarine had the best reply to you're issue. F-Class is not a one shot one kill competition, it's a twenty shot for record competition. Because of this, a few things change.

If you just want to do this for fun, this is what you need to do. Since you don't have access to a 600yd range for testing, take all three rifles out to your 100yd range and set your scopes up for a 600yd zero. Then shoot all three in the match, a different rifle on each string. Don't worry about your score, instead pay attention to which one actually GROUPS the best. Then next time you shoot a match you'll know which rifle to take with you.

Watching your ES/SD on a chrono and group evaluation at 100yds can be a good indicator of 600yd performance, but not always. I've seen rifles with ES of 15fps throw 8 inches of vertical at 600yd. Yet I've een guns with ES of 40-50fps that have less than 2 inches of vertical spread.

The point of this rant is this: Go out there and test all three at 600yd because you really have no idea what your rifles are capable of.</div></div>

Interesting idea. I may just do that.

Thanks.
 
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