Suppressors First round drift question

[beenjammin]

I have a question when shooting competitivly with a suppressor.

I enjoy shooting my .308 more when using my Tigershark, but definitely notice first round displacement. My question is: Is this diplacement constant? Meaning for match day since I cannot shoot a spoiler for my suppressor, can I compensate for first round shot displacement?

Or is it rather random?

As for the tigershark, I love the can and the only difference between shooting with it on or off is a 2 moa drop. But with a cold can so to speak, the first shot is a ??

Since I have not been using it during matches, its relatively new to me.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

I do not believe silencers are legal in sanctioned BR competition.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

Zak is probably right, but if the competition you are involved in does allow suppressors:

In the vietnam war, silencers weren't nearly as good as they are today. First round flash was bad. Some snipers would fire the suppressors prior to mission (into the ground) and place tape over the muzzle in order to trap combustion gas.

You could probably do the same prior to competition (if they allow you to shoot sighters prior to the beginning of the event) to minimize first round fliers. You probably won't even have to pull the tape.

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HPLLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the vietnam war, silencers weren't nearly as good as they are today. First round flash was bad. Some snipers would fire the suppressors prior to mission (into the ground) and place tape over the muzzle in order to trap combustion gas.

You could probably do the same prior to competition (if they allow you to shoot sighters prior to the beginning of the event) to minimize first round fliers. You probably won't even have to pull the tape. </div></div>

It never ceases to amaze me how you take something you read in a book and incorrectly apply it to a completely unrelated situation as advice.

The topic you were looking for sounds like: "Help, I get poor FRP but all the rounds after sound great..."

 

[beenjammin]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not believe silencers are legal in sanctioned BR competition.
</div></div>

Zak, man come on dude... Ok, its not a Sanctioned Benchrest Competiton, maybe that was a poor way to describe it.

For lack of arguments sake lets say its a non sanctioned monthly weekend match we do here in AL

The point is: Is the first shot of suppressor consistant enough to "learn the can" or should I pretty much just rule the first shot out? Hardrock is where Im shooting . We shoot off benches at targets 600, 800, 900 and 1k. We are limited to 20 rounds in 20 mins. Center bull is 10 pts, 2 moa bull is 5 points. Highest score wins.

I have been using my brake on the AW, but I am forced to shoot in the last relay with anything goes class around the hottest part of the day, I enjoy the suppressor, but wonder if I am putting myself at a slight disadvantage.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

For argument sake, seeing how it is your rifle and your suppressor which can be completely unique to you, you actually go out and shoot it and record the differences then you will know instead of asking people to guess.

I have some suppressor that have a 1st round shift, some that don't and still another that did and changed over time and has a much less shift then when I got it. So, there is no one answer, especially for you.

Shut the computer off, pack up your stuff and go shoot it. Fire 5 rounds take it off wait an hour do it agin if you have too, and again. Practice is the only way to not be at a disadvantage.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

I wasn't trying to argue, just to point it out in case you were planning to shoot BR with a can. I would have given the same answer if you asked what you should do for F-class.

Anyway, Lowlight is exactly right. Figure it out for your rifle and can and that's the answer.

 

[beenjammin]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For argument sake, seeing how it is your rifle and your suppressor which can be completely unique to you, you actually go out and shoot it and record the differences then you will know instead of asking people to guess.

I have some suppressor that have a 1st round shift, some that don't and still another that did and changed over time and has a much less shift then when I got it. So, there is no one answer, especially for you.

Shut the computer off, pack up your stuff and go shoot it. Fire 5 rounds take it off wait an hour do it agin if you have too, and again. Practice is the only way to not be at a disadvantage. </div></div>

LL, im not asking people to guess anything about my rifle, I am simply asking for those of you that do have a great deal of experience shooting suppressed and know how your first round drift may be, is it fairly consistant? Meaning is it something that goes with the can when shooting a given load? Meaining something that I can learn. Yea, I could have just gotten off my computer and gone out and figured it out over time, but dont feel that it is a totally out of line question to ask. Am I just supposed to know this?

I do appreciate your time in answering.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

Actually you are.

My good cans don't have a shift, so the question is for you to answer.

If I had to shoot a match with a can I would use my TBAC 30P because it groups the best and has the least shift, period. So if you don't have a ThunderBeast or something close like my Shark I would say you are outta luck, so good luck with that, I have no idea what your can is like.

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

First. Does your rifle exhibit the first round flyer without the suppressor?

Second. Have you put 200 round through your suppressor yet?

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HPLLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the vietnam war, silencers weren't nearly as good as they are today. First round flash was bad. Some snipers would fire the suppressors prior to mission (into the ground) and place tape over the muzzle in order to trap combustion gas.
</div></div>

I would encourage people to stop and think when they read things like this.

Does taping the muzzle make the suppressor and the platform air tight? If it makes it air tight enough to trap the gases and eliminate FRP - does it stand to reason that the time period associated with 'tight enough' would also equal a distance too close to the subject to have done this in the first place?


Back OT - I thought I read somewhere that full bore allowed for suppressors. I could be wrong.

OP - are you saying your shift is only temporary and confined to the first shot? After that it settles back? As Jack asked - what does it do w/o the can?


Good luck

 

[remau308]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

I have been with him to his range on several occasions, and witnessed this myself. Saying his group without the can is dead bullseye, he screws the can on and his first shot is shifted 2MOA to the right, and 2 1/2MOA down. The rest with the can on seem to settle 1MOA to the right, and 1MOA down. (Disclaimer: I am not saying these measurements are completely precise, but the measurements are close enough) His point was, (LL) not to guess where his first shot impact is going to be, but instead, is this a constant thing, and has anyone else had this exact experience? It seems to do this quite a bit, since everytime I have seen him shoot it, it shifts further than normal on the first shot. Is this something he can compensate for on the first shot and be confident it will be accurate? i.e. does someone else do this and feel comfortable about it, or should he just basically count his first round out of the mix because it's a pretty good shift at 600 yards?

Also, our competition (Hardrock) allows suppressors...

 

[springer01]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

Seems like to me if this "shift" is consistent then you would compensate for it the first shot 2MOA right and 2.5MOA down first shot then following shots 1MOA right 1MOA down.

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

Ben, Ben, Ben,,,

I did a test once like this for a contractor group and would be more than happy to guide you with this if you'd only ask while you were at the match.

You shoot the rifle without can and clean it. You put the can on and shoot it. You have a variable shift from first round to second/third and it seems consistent from what Remau308 said.

Harmonic stabilization occurs with many weapons in the first or second round. Then anything you do afterwards is consistent. This is the pattern that we saw in the testing.
What we then found was if you shot the rifle with can, then took the can off, cleaned it, and put the can back on and shot it again, the shift was consistent and could be tracked.
But if you shot the rifle without the can and then went back to the can, you had to get the harmonic stabilization again.

As Frank said, each weapon is different and some cans have very little shift. You have to test yours.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HPLLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the vietnam war, silencers weren't nearly as good as they are today. First round flash was bad. Some snipers would fire the suppressors prior to mission (into the ground) and place tape over the muzzle in order to trap combustion gas.

You could probably do the same prior to competition (if they allow you to shoot sighters prior to the beginning of the event) to minimize first round fliers. You probably won't even have to pull the tape. </div></div>

It never ceases to amaze me how you take something you read in a book and incorrectly apply it to a completely unrelated situation as advice.

The topic you were looking for sounds like: "Help, I get poor FRP but all the rounds after sound great..." </div></div>

What do you think causes the first round to be a flier? Maybe the oxygen burning inside the suppressor affects bullet flight?

That's not a stupid connection at all. More pressure = more sound. FRP is louder. The pressure coming out the muzzle [also following the bullet] is higher on the first round.

Get rid of FRP by removing the oxygen accelerating combustion and creating that over-pressure not present with subsequent shots, and you might just get rid of the first round flier too.

I'd rather you tell me how more sound is created without more pressure. Or how a bullet is made to be a flier with identical mechanical and atmospheric conditions. That would be an interesting discussion because it would have to take into account some unknown force like magic perhaps.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

once more.....there is a good reason why many of the above posters now only drive a single point attachment system....

savvy the plumb shoulder

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

Some suppressor mounting systems are not solid. They need to carbon up before they stop throwing fliers. That is not true of single point thread mounts, which are solidly mounted from the first round.

The M110 would seem to group a little worse for the first 5 rounds. I've heard MK13 users say the same thing occurred and the MK13 uses a variation of the KAC M110/Sr25 style suppressor- same slip fit mount that needs to carbon up to get more consistent.

Since the poster talked about one round it sounded more like the FRP was causing the flier. Since it flies in the same direction but further, it sounds like higher pressure gas may be the cause.

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HPLLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HPLLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the vietnam war, silencers weren't nearly as good as they are today. First round flash was bad. Some snipers would fire the suppressors prior to mission (into the ground) and place tape over the muzzle in order to trap combustion gas.

You could probably do the same prior to competition (if they allow you to shoot sighters prior to the beginning of the event) to minimize first round fliers. You probably won't even have to pull the tape. </div></div>

It never ceases to amaze me how you take something you read in a book and incorrectly apply it to a completely unrelated situation as advice.

The topic you were looking for sounds like: "Help, I get poor FRP but all the rounds after sound great..." </div></div>

What do you think causes the first round to be a flier? Maybe the oxygen burning inside the suppressor affects bullet flight?

That's not a stupid connection at all. More pressure = more sound. FRP is louder. The pressure coming out the muzzle [also following the bullet] is higher on the first round.

Get rid of FRP by removing the oxygen accelerating combustion and creating that over-pressure not present with subsequent shots, and you might just get rid of the first round flier too.

I'd rather you tell me how more sound is created without more pressure. Or how a bullet is made to be a flier with identical mechanical and atmospheric conditions. That would be an interesting discussion because it would have to take into account some unknown force like magic perhaps.

</div></div>

Bahh. You're arguing the possible increase in muzzle velocity is causing it. But that's not the problem. Could it exacerbate a problem in alignment of the baffle stack to the bore? Yes, most certainly it could. But then the problem is one of alignment. It could be a single baffle throwing everything off. Or the shoulder alignment. Or an issue with the crown of the barrel.

But it has nothing to do with FRP. Your argument of shooting a shot then taping off the muzzle is piss poor. Here's another dumb way to half unfuck the problem. Couldn't he just chronograph the first shot and subsequent shots and tailor down the first load so the velocity is the same as the others, thus negating the extreme shift. Have special first round bullets, which is an easier solution then running down to the end of a hot muzzle with tape. Although equally as dumb...

Better yet. Why doesn't he fix his alignment issue. Because he's got one. Guarantee it. While he sorts out his barrel shoulder alignment it's super easy to put a new crown on. Almost a why not since it's all chucked up and indicated.....

Or maybe you'd rather suggest a favorite type and color of tape for him?. I'm going to suggest he eat a choco taco, because while it won't do anything to come close to fixing his problem I rather like them....

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HPLLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some suppressor mounting systems are not solid. They need to carbon up before they stop throwing fliers. That is not true of single point thread mounts, which are solidly mounted from the first round. </div></div>
That's why I asked if he had put 200 rounds through the combo yet....

Although loose mounts are not completely consistent in the way they throw fliers. Hence the reason we are right back at alignment.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

I think your analysis of my theory is piss poor. Because the suppressor is a Tigershark we know that it is thread attached. And I don't agree with the clear indication of a justification for re-threading the barrel, based on the 1MOA shift performance the poster describes.

If you can get someone to guaranty zero POI shift, by all means, re-thread the barrel.

I don't know of anyone that will guaranty anything except that you spend money and get an opportunity to see what happens when you get back out to the range.

Only Shark would really be qualified to say whether re-threading the barrel, or suppressor inspection/repair was justified based on 1MOA shift so it might make sense to ask them.

 

[David Hineline]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

I have never known a silencer to shift the first round only. I would guess your rifle barrel has some stresses that need to be worked out.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David Hineline</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never known a silencer to shift the first round only. I would guess your rifle barrel has some stresses that need to be worked out.</div></div>

I demonstrated it with a Gemtech Sandstorm...

I have more than 10 suppressors, the Gemtech Sandstorm did this, where other suppressors on the same rifle under the same condition did not exhibit the shift. Since shooting the suppressor it has reduced the shift, however it is a side effect of the design.

 

[Guest]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David Hineline</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never known a silencer to shift the first round only. I would guess your rifle barrel has some stresses that need to be worked out. </div></div>

I know of 6 high dollar sticks one being a AI sporting a TI can that will shift the first round. Then again I know of one POS that has a FA rated can that has no shift other than for weight.

Now as for the V/N smoke shit someone posted, please tell me what weapon, who's can and were was this guys A/O?
Why because, I think someone was making/smoking crack that far back. I've shot my share of M14's with Sonic an other Cans and never heard of such. Water yes, but never smoke! Was this first hand info, or you knew a guy that had a brother, who talked to the first cousin of the girl that showed a tit for 5 bucks, in a bar last week?

 

[bachelorjack]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now as for the V/N smoke shit someone posted, please tell me what weapon, who's can and were was this guys A/O?
Why because, I think someone was making/smoking crack that far back. I've shot my share of M14's with Sonic an other Cans and never heard of such. Water yes, but never smoke! Was this first hand info, or you knew a guy that had a brother, who talked to the first cousin of the girl that showed a tit for 5 bucks, in a bar last week? </div></div>
He read it in a book.....I was very clear about this.

 

[Guest]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

Ben,

Call David at Liberty, he will correct your problem. There will not be a first or any round issue if he does the can an muzzle threads.

Kenneth

 

[Barney88PDC]

Re: Benchrest competition tips with a suppressor

You stated you have a Tigershark as do I. With my can on my gun I get a POI shift of 0.5 Mils down with the can on as opposed to with it off but ALL of the shots are 0.5 Mils low. First round last round it doesn't matter.

As LL stated the only way for you to find out on your gun is to go out and shoot it.