FIRST ROUND FLYER

[gpark09]

I've been trying to resolve my 'First Round Flyer' with my 308 gas gun for as long as I can remember. It's DPMS G2 (Hunter) in 308. The first shot of the magazine always lands about an inch away to 10 or 11 o'clock of rest of the group. The rest of the group lands within 1 moa. I even sent it in for the service, but still the same. All they did was shoot a 3 shot group and called it a good.

I've been surfing the web and I see I am not the only one with this problem however it was a rare problem. Problem is, I see same problems but I don't see any solution done. No one actually followed up with their story.

Some says its damage on the bullet tip when manually charging it, some says it's the bolt and bore concentric problem when manually charging it and so on.

Did any one had this problem and fixed it for good???

 

[knuckleballz]

Fire first shot into the backstop and the proceed to shoot your group. Sorry, I couldnt resist. Have you tried putting an odd number in the magazine so the first round chambered is on the opposite side of the magazine? Is it a cold bore first shot? Is it after cleaning the bore?

 

[gpark09]

Yes, I put 5 rounds in a 10 round magazine to eliminate that possibility.

It's not cold bore shot. It does not matter how many shots are being fired, very first of round of fresh magazine, in another word first shot of either manual or bolt lock back charging. Bores' been cleaned including star chamber. Believe me when I say I tried everything to eliminate any factors that can be cause by me.

Those so called expert AR gunsmiths are no help.

 

[YukonRob]

Does it make a difference if you manually cycle the action vs locked open and drop the bolt?
I’d just start eliminating variables... if it really comes down to a difference in how the gas system operates your bolt vs you operate it, there has to be a mechanical difference somewhere.

 

[hlee]

Are you rebuilding your position from scratch after every shot, or staying on the gun for all shots in the string? My bet is that there is a subtle difference in your position that your rifle is taking advantage of, that you are subconciously adjusting for after the first shot. Most cold bore deviation- I am told- is shooter driven.

 

[isofahunter]

I have several AR platforms and I have never found a great solution for the first round issue. IMO it is all about bolt speed and the only way I have found in help minimize (not eliminate) the drift is the use the charging handle to close the bolt on the round and not the bolt release. You can also use the forward assist to make a final push but I have not found it to make all that much difference. I know the offset for the first shot and hold low right of where I want POI to be then back to center hold.

 

[flyright]

With my LMT MWS (about 200 rounds total now) I'm still seeing a first and last shot difference - not by much - from the middle 3 when using a 5 round magazine. I am seeing about 1/4 inch difference in first and last shot. It was much worse when new - 1/2 to 1 MOA. The first round, manually loaded - and the last round with no mag/cartridge upward pressure on the bolt, are the "flyers" and I was told this can be expected - by a very knowledgeable AR gunsmith. It should get better with use. My groups with a 5 round mag have went from 1.75 MOA to less than .75 MOA in this 200 round period. If I load a 10 round mag the "middle 8 rounds" will be .5 MOA. Guess it's just the nuances of a gas gun...

 

[chopit]

My 5.56 does the same thing. The first manually charged round is always slightly off then everything else in the mag is good. Doesn't matter hot or cold. It is only average 3/8 off of the rest so I never worried about it. I always chalked it up to seating in the chamber or the bullet coming out slightly and being closer to lands. But i am no expert and that is my own dumbass explanation for mine.

 

[gpark09]

Does it make a difference if you manually cycle the action vs locked open and drop the bolt?
I’d just start eliminating variables... if it really comes down to a difference in how the gas system operates your bolt vs you operate it, there has to be a mechanical difference somewhere.

It did not make any different. At first the round would not even fire when manually charge the first round. Somehow this part has been fixed after DPMS service center. But, first round flyer is still occurs.

 

[gpark09]

Are you rebuilding your position from scratch after every shot, or staying on the gun for all shots in the string? My bet is that there is a subtle difference in your position that your rifle is taking advantage of, that you are subconciously adjusting for after the first shot. Most cold bore deviation- I am told- is shooter driven.

I stay on the scope all the way through. I even had my buddy reload while I was still on the scope. Believe when I say I tried every single possible variables to eliminate the shooter error last couple of years.

 

[flyright]

Watch Frank's video. The rebuilding of position is BS. I can get up, stand down, move around and reset. As long as the crosshairs are on the target properly and I have the same relationship with the gun, it makes 0 difference.

 

[flyright]

If the chambering of a round is an issue/inconsistant, then absolutely you will have accuracy problems. Bullet jamming, shaving of the bullet jacket, brass press fit via inapropriate headspace/resizing will ruin accuracy and everything with a Semi auto has to be very consistent. Even more so than a bolt gun - IMHO...

 

[gpark09]

If the chambering of a round is an issue/inconsistant, then absolutely you will have accuracy problems. Bullet jamming, shaving of the bullet jacket, brass press fit via inapropriate headspace/resizing will ruin accuracy and everything with a Semi auto has to be very consistent. Even more so than a bolt gun - IMHO...

Above reasons are ones I grew to suspect. I just can't find any smith who can come up with any solution.

 

[flyright]

Gpark, how many rounds have been through the rifle? I've seen many (most) new AR's for precision exhibit this to at least a small degree but also, most tighten up after a couple hundred rounds.

 

[madppcs]

My respectful opinion is that the rifle is exploiting something in your first shot. Then the follow up shots are more consistent cause the rifle is settled into your body position.

Have other people shoot your gun and dont tell them anything. Just compare all the groups of all the other shooters. If there is a mechanical problem, itll show up in every group from every shooter.

 

[fdkay]

First round flyer is not uncommon. You just cannot mimic the bolt velocity and movement of the system whenever charging the round manually.

 

[isofahunter]

Single load each round for your next group see what it does. If all in same group then it is the difference is how the bolt cycles under manual and semi auto operation.

 

[gpark09]

Gpark, how many rounds have been through the rifle? I've seen many (most) new AR's for precision exhibit this to at least a small degree but also, most tighten up after a couple hundred rounds.

Little over 400 rounds.

 

[gpark09]

First round flyer is not uncommon. You just cannot mimic the bolt velocity and movement of the system whenever charging the round manually.

That's just how I feel at this phase, unless I can discover reason otherwise in the future. Going to try few more stuffs before I send it to a Jarrett Rifles. DPMS has no clue and I've sent just too much money on this.

 

[flyright]

Everything should have settled down for sure by 400 rounds. I wouldn't accept that on a SA I wanted for precision shooting. The difference with my MWS is so small that most times I question if it's just me; I can deal with that.