First time annealing, have questions.

[mzvarner]

First time using an EP integrations annealer. This 6.5 CM brass has close to 10 firings on it (140gr burger, h4350, @~2700fps). In the past I would send batches to a memeber on here that would anneal for us. Probably every 2-3 firings.

Setup: propane torch tip was set back from brass so there was a gap, and the flame tip was not in contact with the brass. "Rotation time" was set at 22- 24, so the brass would drop as the neck just started to glow and an orange flame would start (impurities?)

Some of the cases have dark spots around the neck. Would this be considered over annealed and not safe to fire?

Since these have so many firings, i closely inspected the necks for cracks, and used the tip of a paper clip to check for internal seperation near the case head. You can see lots of scratches on the case body, so i parted one in the lathe to see wall thickness at the location of these cracks. Seems there is plenty of wall, and these are surface scratches from the dusty match I shot Saturday.

 

[spife7980]

Scratches are likely from your mags feed lips.
I wouldnt worry about the color, a bit of 0000 steel wool and theyll shine right back up like new. They arent getting stuck in the wheel and stop rotating are they?

 

[ShtrRdy]

How many seconds does " 22 to 24" dwell?

 

[mzvarner]

Scratches are likely from your mags feed lips.
I wouldnt worry about the color, a bit of 0000 steel wool and theyll shine right back up like new. They arent getting stuck in the wheel and stop rotating are they?

Not these 6.5, but the batch of308 from my AR 10 had some sticking. So i stopped until i can figure that out. Assumed its from the ejector marks. There is a little burr.

 

[mzvarner]

How many seconds does " 22 to 24" dwell?

I did not think to time it, so i am unsure.

 

[straightshooter1]

First time using an EP integrations annealer. This 6.5 CM brass has close to 10 firings on it (140gr burger, h4350, @~2700fps). In the past I would send batches to a memeber on here that would anneal for us. Probably every 2-3 firings.

Setup: propane torch tip was set back from brass so there was a gap, and the flame tip was not in contact with the brass. "Rotation time" was set at 22- 24, so the brass would drop as the neck just started to glow and an orange flame would start (impurities?)

Some of the cases have dark spots around the neck. Would this be considered over annealed and not safe to fire?

Since these have so many firings, i closely inspected the necks for cracks, and used the tip of a paper clip to check for internal seperation near the case head. You can see lots of scratches on the case body, so i parted one in the lathe to see wall thickness at the location of these cracks. Seems there is plenty of wall, and these are surface scratches from the dusty match I shot Saturday.

Sounds and looks like you're doing you're annealing just fine. That "starting to glow" method is what I've done for many years and it works well for determining how long to leave your brass in the flame. The actual time interval isn't really important, except you want to heat to that glowing point (as seen in a dark room) as quickly as possible to minimize the heat transference to the lower part of the case body. As far as those few with the "dark spots around the neck", that could be due to a lack of consistent rotation while in the flame (I think that's why spife7980 was asking about them getting stuck in the wheel).

I don't clean my cases until after annealing, as I want to remove that abrasive oxide layer that the annealing process leaves behind so that it doesn't wear on my sizing dies. Typically, I'll just use some steel wool on the necks and shoulders with just a few twists on each before sizing. I seldom do more than 100 at a time, so cleaning this way is not big deal. Otherwise, I'd tumble them before sizing.

After sizing and dry tumbling with rice to remove the lube, I use an expander mandrel to set my neck tension and lastly, 3-way trim to a uniform case length. They end up looking like this:

 

[Aftermath]

Nothing in the pics indicate anything wrong. The dark spots is from crap on the brass.
Here is what I do:
1) pull the trigger and collect the spent brass
2) knock the primers out using a dedicated decapper
3) vibrate clean
4) anneal
5) resize
6) vibrate clean and inspect
7) prime, charge, seat
8) repeat

If after 6 I find discolored brass that is otherwise good to go, I don’t care. I’ve never judged by color, only performance.

 

[Haney]

I used to think I could judge by eye with flame annealing . Once I bought a bottle of tempilaq I realized how wrong I was .

 

[FredHammer]

I used to think I could judge by eye with flame annealing . Once I bought a bottle of tempilaq I realized how wrong I was .

I just let the brass tell me what's going on. Past two years, my rudimentary hand drill-socket-torch method is producing very consistent seating, shoulder bumps, sizing mandrel spring back. I found with lights on, wearing my readers, and pulling the cases when the necks get "dove breast" colored is the best method.

 

[99mpower]

Templaq is required to time appropriately. Only good way to do it. “By eye” is not a very good indicator of actual temperature, and different types/sizes require different times

 

[spife7980]

I agree but whenever Ive done via induction the point where the temiplaq turns it the same point as when the neck first starts to glow in a dark room. Its a decent benchmark to go by if you are lacking the equipment for better analysis (better than nothing).
Its not a direct relation but it does correlate fairly well.

 

[SharpShooterSER]

I used to think I could judge by eye with flame annealing . Once I bought a bottle of tempilaq I realized how wrong I was .

at least use tempilaq for proper and repeatable results (older method can give you a close ballpark, but tempilaq is much better way to be certain) and if possible a regulated tank. or you can go and spend over 1.5k for the best there is (hands down).
be sure that the case is spinning all the time while being heated.

 

[99mpower]

Templaq is so cheap on Amazon.. rasy

 

[Haney]

Temilaq also shows how far the heat has run below the shoulder . Going by color is a guessing game . I have 6 different 30-06 headstamps I anneal , if properly heated they all have a different color . They also require a different dwell time to get just right .

 

[mzvarner]

Great advice guys. Ill have to research the templaq methid. Quick search, and it seems to come in a variety of temo ranges?

 

[spife7980]

Great advice guys. Ill have to research the templaq methid. Quick search, and it seems to come in a variety of temo ranges?

750° is what most use, with flame youll put a little inside the neck and see when it changes from a dried green powder to a clear liquid, keep going past that and it turns to black cooked on crust.
With my induction I can put it on the outside of the case to easily see without have the direct flame cook it immediately and Ill go until it turns clear just below the shoulder. By varying how deep I have it into the induction field (or how high vs low on the shoulder you set the flame) I try to get it to where the neck and shoulder turn color together instead of the neck way before the other. The smaller the neck caliber the earlier it will heat before the shoulder.

Ive used 450 on the bodies to check for heat migration into the case head but its never even gotten close on me. If you are letting the cases spin for 10+ seconds you need a hotter flame with more direct heat, a handful of seconds would be the max Id want something sitting in a heat source.