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Fitness for Fundamentals

RackSqueezeBang

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Minuteman
Mar 29, 2019
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I’ve been reading and watching a ton on fundamentals, NPA, bone support, etc….

What I’m curious about is cross training to complement these skills.

As an avid gym enthusiast who lifts at a powerlifting gym, I’m fairly strong for a male and I’m pretty confident I can outlift a fair amount of pro male shooters, and certainly most, if not all the female pro shooters. Yet, as proven time and time again, gym fit does not equate to being fit for any particular sport, regardless of if it’s shooting, baseball, motocross, MMA, or whatever your poison. To that end, all of the strength I’ve gained over the years has not translated into the ability to hold a rifle steady. This is most glaringly apparent when comparing myself to female pro shooters where strength differentials are the biggest.

Nothing beats fundamentals, period. I think we can all agree on that. As we all spend hours on end dry firing to reduce that dreaded wobble, I can’t help but think that at the same time we’re also developing those smaller stability muscles that stabilize the body and allow it to remain still without constantly correcting and over correcting. Powerlifting, like shooting, is all about stability. You can’t squat to your fullest potential if you can’t stabilize the weight on your back or in your hands. This is why people can bench or squat more weight on a machine (actual weight, not what the machine says) than they could lifting free weights. This is because the machine stabilizes the weight for you, and all you have to do is push as hard as you can.

So the question. Is there a fitness routine that you high level ladies and gents use to compliment your shooting?
 
Considering some of the best shooters in the country are in fairly terrible shape, I'd say there will be little to no correlation in many fitness routines. Likely things like cardio and nutrition would give you advantage on eye fatigue or getting shaky towards the end of long days at matches.

If you are struggling with wobble on props and such, you likely have something not working right in your position building and/or fundamentals.

Now that through optic cameras are common, we have been using them in training classes or scouring social media and looking at as many as we can. Surprisingly, wobble is very good in general across the board. Much better than we expected. The main culprit for poor performance was in their wind strategy and shot correction strategy.

Most people are flirting with the edges of plates when they are making impacts instead of correcting to center. They end up walking rounds off the plate. And once they miss (be it before even making an impact or if they walk rounds off after impact/s) they do several things wrong including taking multiple shots to "confirm" miss location before adjusting, and whenever they do adjust its usually far too small of an adjustment. So they either end up missing multiple times and having to walk their rounds back onto the plate, or they go back to flirting with the edge of plate and walking shots back off after more impacts.
 
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Considering some of the best shooters in the country are in fairly terrible shape, I'd say there will be little to no correlation in many fitness routines. Likely things like cardio and nutrition would give you advantage on eye fatigue or getting shaky towards the end of long days at matches.

If you are struggling with wobble on props and such, you likely have something not working right in your position building and/or fundamentals.

Now that through optic cameras are common, we have been using them in training classes or scouring social media and looking at as many as we can. Surprisingly, wobble is very good in general across the board. Much better than we expected. The main culprit for poor performance was in their wind strategy and shot correction strategy.

Most people are flirting with the edges of plates when they are making impacts instead of correcting to center. They end up walking rounds off the plate. And once they miss (be it before even making an impact or if they walk rounds off after impact/s) they do several things wrong including taking multiple shots to "confirm" miss location before adjusting, and whenever they do adjust its usually far too small of an adjustment. So they either end up missing multiple times and having to walk their rounds back onto the plate, or they go back to flirting with the edge of plate and walking shots back off after more impacts.

LOL, I've certainly noticed that as well. My assumption is that through thousands of hours of practice, they've reinforced those neural pathways, and strengthened and learned to coordinate those stabilizer muscles to help them remain steady. Kind of like watching someone learn to do a handstand. At first they're super wobbly. Over time those stabilizer muscles grow stronger and more coordinated through practice, and before long, they have the strength and coordination to do a handstand. Through repetition the body will learn to adapt.

Having a problem with wobble is relative I suppose and will always be something to be working on until I'm as steady as I am in prone.

As someone who trains pretty frequently, I was looking to add something to compliment shooting. But maybe you're right, and it really just boils purely down to fundamentals.

I'm pretty confident at keeping my wobble within 1-1.5 MOA from alternate positions, just looking to take it to the next level and get sub MOA.

Nonetheless, thanks for the feedback and advice.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider wobble being "good" across the board?
 
LOL, I've certainly noticed that as well. My assumption is that through thousands of hours of practice, they've reinforced those neural pathways, and strengthened and learned to coordinate those stabilizer muscles to help them remain steady. Kind of like watching someone learn to do a handstand. At first they're super wobbly. Over time those stabilizer muscles grow stronger and more coordinated through practice, and before long, they have the strength and coordination to do a handstand. Through repetition the body will learn to adapt.

Having a problem with wobble is relative I suppose and will always be something to be working on until I'm as steady as I am in prone.

As someone who trains pretty frequently, I was looking to add something to compliment shooting. But maybe you're right, and it really just boils purely down to fundamentals.

I'm pretty confident at keeping my wobble within 1-1.5 MOA from alternate positions, just looking to take it to the next level and get sub MOA.

Nonetheless, thanks for the feedback and advice.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider wobble being "good" across the board?

On steady props with heavy rifles, .3 total wobble. For top or "elite" shooters, there's almost no visually perceivable wobble if free recoil. Something around .1 when managing recoil.


Take a 20-22lb Prs rifle with a sand filled game changer or wiebad. Take your cheekpiece off or just hover your eye behind the optic. Settle it down and get it centered on your target. Take your hands/body completely off the rifle and let it sit there. You'll see that it doesn't move at all. This is assuming a properly balanced rifle. If it moves, you need to change the balance.

So, anything after that is all you.

Here's a short clip from a stable barricade with a heavy balanced rifle and loading into it for maximum recoil management. Not completely leaning all your weight. But enough that you could shoot a larger cartridge and still see your shots downrange. This is 100yds on 2" sticky. So the middle is about 1/3 moa or so. Free or semi free recoil would be almost no movement.


 
I'm probably in that .3-.5 mils depending on the position, definitely more work to be done. That 1/3 MOA is a nice spot to be, for me at least.

I do need to balance my rifle, she's a little thick in the arse. Not terribly, but could improve. More shit to buy, lol. But yeah, that's my goal is to get to that pro level, as I'm sure that's everyone. Like most things, it boils down to who is willing to do the work.

The sand fill is another item for me. I have a light fill game changer currently, but the hell with lugging that thing around full of sand as I've been mostly doing team matches as of late. Lugging that thing up 10 flights of stairs at a place like GTI? No thanks! So I'll probably invest in a smaller size at some point. Like most, I already have too much shit I want to buy, so thanks for adding that, lol.
 
Maybe I misunderstood stood and Don’t take this as a poke, but you’re kind of answering your own question in that last comment. You can squat or DL a house, but can’t carry the rifle and a sack of sand up the stairs and keep your heart rate and breathing down. IMO, that’s going to be your start point .


I probably train muck like you do. Heavy lifts (for a broke down old man) and carry a lot of mass most of the year. (6’1”, 245#) When it’s run and gun season I change to internals and drop to 220-225#. Fucks with my ego but it’s SO much easier moving and doing obstacles in a PC and kit. Again, run and gun isn’t PRS as we have a lot more distance and there is no rest, but you can see where I’m going with this.

Ultimately, if you can control your heart rate, breath and keep your fine motor skills optimized while under stress/exhaustion you are likely to do fine.
 
Don’t take this as a poke, but you’re kind of answering your own question in that last comment. You can squat or DL a house, but can’t carry the rifle and a sack of sand up the stairs and keep your heart rate and breathing down. IMO, that’s going to be your start point .


I probably train muck like you do. Heavy lifts (for a broke down old man) and carry a lot of mass most of the year. (6’1”, 245#) When it’s run and gun season I change to internals and drop to 220-225#. Fucks with my ego but it’s SO much easier moving and doing obstacles in a PC and kit. Again, run and gun isn’t PRS as we have a lot more distance and there is no rest, but you can see where I’m going with this.

Ultimately, if you can control your heart rate, breath and keep your fine motor skills optimized while under stress/exhaustion you are likely to do fine.

I’m not easily offended, so you’re good. There’s a reason I lift heavy…. No running! Lol. But yeah, I’m in the same boat, 6-2, 230# and can DL a house. Well, could, lol. Complete distal biceps tear at the end of summer has me pretty limited. 3 months post op and still not fully recovered. But hell, even the active duty guys were sucking wind after hauling 40-50lbs of gear up to 10 commercial flights of stairs.

Anyway, cardio def needs to be in my future, as much as I don’t want to admit it. But even in the basement on the barricade I can feel wobble in my body. I’m sure most of that is building better fundamentals, but I still think there’s merit to sport specific training. Some yoga may be the ticket 🤷‍♂️
 
I can’t run either. 4 back surgeries, two torn shoulders with impingement , two disc bulges in my neck and most import for running, a full j hook stress fracture in my left leg. Surgeon told me about four years ago, never again. No running, NO leg extensions, so I walk up hill with and without weight. I adjust to keep my heart rate just into zone 3 to extend my zone two time.


More than 3 stories is going to be tough on anyone. I guess it comes down to who will be sucking the least?

I’ve not found a way to get good NPA, etc while field shooting. Unless I’m hunting. I do the best I can and live with the shots I take. If I’m hunting and I can’t get the exact shot I want, I just pass and enjoy the show. That’s rare though, as I usually have hours if not days in the stand making range cards, etc.

I’m curious to see what you come up with over the next few months. I’m sure there are several ways to skin this cat, looking forward to learning something new and maybe trying something different. If nothing else, it helps keeps training interesting.
 
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I’m not easily offended, so you’re good. There’s a reason I lift heavy…. No running! Lol. But yeah, I’m in the same boat, 6-2, 230# and can DL a house. Well, could, lol. Complete distal biceps tear at the end of summer has me pretty limited. 3 months post op and still not fully recovered. But hell, even the active duty guys were sucking wind after hauling 40-50lbs of gear up to 10 commercial flights of stairs.

Anyway, cardio def needs to be in my future, as much as I don’t want to admit it. But even in the basement on the barricade I can feel wobble in my body. I’m sure most of that is building better fundamentals, but I still think there’s merit to sport specific training. Some yoga may be the ticket 🤷‍♂️

First, I'm not a pro level shooter.
I used to be a 200hour certified yoga instructor.
If you attend a class, look for an instructor that walks you through every posture. I don't like nor did I use the term "pose". Do not get hung up on crazy contortionist shit, it is a waste of time and likely to cause injury. Explain to your instructor that you want to improve steadiness, breathing, and focus your mind. Notice I didn't say clear.
You want an instructor that will make corrections to your form, as well as explain why.
Corrections include "how", not just a phrase like "ground yourself".
On standing postures like "warrior 2" You should be coached into it without superfluous language.
1. Inhale, step your left foot forward.
2. Tuck your pelvis forward.
3. Exhale bend your front knee keeping the knee behind the ankle. You should be able to see your toes. Open the pelvis to the side.
5. Turn the back foot slightly outward. Straighten the back leg. To avoid "grippng" with your toes; Lift your toes and press equally into the ball and heel. Lightly set the toes down.
6 Draw your navel to your spine, lift through he chest to lengthen your back. Slide the shoulders down and the shoulder blades together.
7. Arms parallel to the ground. Press the fingers outwards.
8. Lift your chin slightly,.
9. Bring your gaze over the extended front fingers.
10. Breathe, allow your exhale to be slightly longer than the inhale. "Inhale 2,3,4, Exhale 2,3,4,5.
^^^ Thus is instruction, any one not teaching in this way is not teaching. They are having you mock what they are doing and overcharging you for it.
I left teaching because it was full of posers and dirty fucking hippies. Good luck finding a "teacher". I mean that sincerely.
My "thesis" to complete certification was on "Yoga and Bullseye". You can take the US Army Marksmanship Units manual and a good book on Yoga and tear all the pages out and bind them together and it would read like one book.
You have strength, you sound like you need control.
 
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I joke....sorry, if offended.

I too tore a distal bicep doing dead lifts....I'm 71 and this was...oh, about at 65. Power lifter who was the x-ray tech at the ortho doc's office yelled at me for lifting so much weight at my age.

AND...I just had my lumbar fused this past Mar after discectomy 15 years ago. The DL's contributed to that disc collapse totally.

I now use cable machines almost exclusively and lowered the weight.

Not sure how old you are, but I personally got very tired of hurting myself and surgery. Hence, cables machines.

I would focus more on functional exercises and cardio (which could be just brisk walks of multiple miles) but I'm just an old guy on a computer.

Have a brilliant day.

Cheers
 
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My assumption is that through thousands of hours of practice, they've reinforced those neural pathways, and strengthened and learned to coordinate those stabilizer muscles to help them remain steady.
Positional rifle shooting has always been and always will be a skill that depends on the ability of the shooter to obtain as much bone on bone support as possible for a given position and orienting the body in a way that the rifle's weight is supported as much as possible through that bone column. The emphasis has always been on lessening the dependence on muscle strength as much as possible.

So you're definitely on the wrong track.

Cardiovascular fitness, as has already been mentioned, is key to reducing the breathing and pulse induced tremors.
 
I definitely overlooked that part in my responses. You absolutely want to use as little muscle as possible. That will only lead to a large wobble.

One example I like to use in classes is when to change from standing to kneeling. It's height dependent. Basically you continue to spread your legs and/or move your feet away from the barricade. This allows you to get continually lower. As soon as you have to start bending your knees (more so than just the very slight bend so you're not completely locked up), that is when you should move to a kneeling position. Otherwise, you'll now move from bone support to muscle support of your body and your wobble will start getting larger.

This is also why you can pretty much take a PRS barricade @ 100yds and practice for most any scenario you'll come across in PRS. As there is really only standing, kneeling, sitting, prone positions. Once you master your wobble in all of these positions, it doesn't matter what the prop or scenario is (minus stuff like ropes, which you can still add to the barricade).
 
Thanks everyone for all the feedback!!! Definitely a consensus on shooting specific fitness, though I still may be stubborn and try to incorporate some yoga or other static exercises just to see if I notice any difference. Besides, it's not like it will be bad for me!

Rio, are you a proponent of locking knees?
 
I am in 100 times better shape than the 110yr old trap shooters in my league, but they consistently smoke my ass all league year. They have the subconscious expert proficiency vs my conscious struggle not to screw up...they all say its the 5" between the ears that makes up 99% of shooting.
 
Thanks everyone for all the feedback!!! Definitely a consensus on shooting specific fitness, though I still may be stubborn and try to incorporate some yoga or other static exercises just to see if I notice any difference. Besides, it's not like it will be bad for me!

Rio, are you a proponent of locking knees?

Depends how long you're going to be there and if you expect the need to "absorb" any vertical movement in your body.

If it's just for a few seconds on a barricade and there's no reason for your body to need to make any vertical movements, you can lock your knees completely. Otherwise, just keep a very slight bend. Slight as in how they tell you to keep a small/slight bend when you're standing at attention.

Basically, you don't want the weight of your body/torso being held up by muscle, but you don't want to be so stiff/locked that you can't absorb movement when needed.
 
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I am sorry, this came out in a fucking book format..

I have too been off the track and rather in the gym. But after having found punching bag, it really set up my training way differently to include aerobic training also.

I usually start the bag after warmup with 100% succesful, nearly full power punches and kicks to see what goes wrong and focus on that the rest of the training session. The punching bag really offers a great way to improve controlling your arms, legs and lungs all simultaneously, going full-on or hard against the bag for 2-10 minutes. I have noticed that this has improved my weapon handling and how to say it, given wider range of conscious actions during movement.

I also do quite a lot of dry firing, just holds and supporting on whatever thing (varying a lot), trying to learn to find the best position for it.

You really cannot over estimate how important repetitions done with the tool itself are. I usually train alone at the range or in party of 2-3 and usually do around 30% dry there too, similar to the bag, first rep with full intent and live rounds, then focus the rest of session to fixing what I noticed went less than stellar.

What definitely is true that strong individuals have 1000 different ways to incorrectly muscle the gun, whereas weaker persons are naturally driven to use their bone structure / core muscles. A heavier gun might help you, at least as a thought experiment it sounds reasonable.

Just talked to another guy and said that I practically cannot operate the gun to a sane position and not have the gun automatically line with my eye anymore, which has been really nice to notice.

On another note, what helped me to build positions was to CHEAT in every way you can when building a position. How low can you go? How much support you can gain? Never train with "makeshift" positions or with rules you set for yourself to do some position harder than is possible - you need to train yourself to always take use of every bit of advantage possible.
 
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I am sorry, this came out in a fucking book format..

I have too been off the track and rather in the gym. But after having found punching bag, it really set up my training way differently to include aerobic training also.

I usually start the bag after warmup with 100% succesful, nearly full power punches and kicks to see what goes wrong and focus on that the rest of the training session. The punching bag really offers a great way to improve controlling your arms, legs and lungs all simultaneously, going full-on or hard against the bag for 2-10 minutes. I have noticed that this has improved my weapon handling and how to say it, given wider range of conscious actions during movement.

I also do quite a lot of dry firing, just holds and supporting on whatever thing (varying a lot), trying to learn to find the best position for it.

You really cannot over estimate how important repetitions done with the tool itself are. I usually train alone at the range or in party of 2-3 and usually do around 30% dry there too, similar to the bag, first rep with full intent and live rounds, then focus the rest of session to fixing what I noticed went less than stellar.

What definitely is true that strong individuals have 1000 different ways to incorrectly muscle the gun, whereas weaker persons are naturally driven to use their bone structure / core muscles. A heavier gun might help you, at least as a thought experiment it sounds reasonable.

Just talked to another guy and said that I practically cannot operate the gun to a sane position and not have the gun automatically line with my eye anymore, which has been really nice to notice.

On another note, what helped me to build positions was to CHEAT in every way you can when building a position. How low can you go? How much support you can gain? Never train with "makeshift" positions or with rules you set for yourself to do some position harder than is possible - you need to train yourself to always take use of every bit of advantage possible.
Books are always welcome, more information the better.

Probably why women are often better shooters! I'm sure I muscle bad positions more often than not, or try to cheat my NPA with muscle as well.

I've been spending a lot of time dry firing as well, mixing it up, using a shot timer to keep me honest. There's definitely been lots of improvement. I did Krav Maga for years, so I definitely see the utility in combat sports for fitness. One thing I've noticed, even in static positions without a gun is that there is natural wobble when standing, kneeling, etc. Things we don't notice until its magnified under a scope.
 
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There are couple quick and easy answeres here, but fundamentally shooting requires a decent amount of good posture/ body control.
 
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Considering some of the best shooters in the country are in fairly terrible shape, I'd say there will be little to no correlation in many fitness routines. Likely things like cardio and nutrition would give you advantage on eye fatigue or getting shaky towards the end of long days at matches.

If you are struggling with wobble on props and such, you likely have something not working right in your position building and/or fundamentals.

Now that through optic cameras are common, we have been using them in training classes or scouring social media and looking at as many as we can. Surprisingly, wobble is very good in general across the board. Much better than we expected. The main culprit for poor performance was in their wind strategy and shot correction strategy.

Most people are flirting with the edges of plates when they are making impacts instead of correcting to center. They end up walking rounds off the plate. And once they miss (be it before even making an impact or if they walk rounds off after impact/s) they do several things wrong including taking multiple shots to "confirm" miss location before adjusting, and whenever they do adjust its usually far too small of an adjustment. So they either end up missing multiple times and having to walk their rounds back onto the plate, or they go back to flirting with the edge of plate and walking shots back off after more impacts.
Very interesting. I’ve heard the same thing from experienced high level shooters before scope cams were a thing. Make specific and significant adjustments if you have no reason to believe your miss was self induced. Never “miss” more than twice without stopping to reevaluate WTF is happening.
 
I am sorry, this came out in a fucking book format..

I have too been off the track and rather in the gym. But after having found punching bag, it really set up my training way differently to include aerobic training also.

I usually start the bag after warmup with 100% succesful, nearly full power punches and kicks to see what goes wrong and focus on that the rest of the training session. The punching bag really offers a great way to improve controlling your arms, legs and lungs all simultaneously, going full-on or hard against the bag for 2-10 minutes. I have noticed that this has improved my weapon handling and how to say it, given wider range of conscious actions during movement.

I also do quite a lot of dry firing, just holds and supporting on whatever thing (varying a lot), trying to learn to find the best position for it.

You really cannot over estimate how important repetitions done with the tool itself are. I usually train alone at the range or in party of 2-3 and usually do around 30% dry there too, similar to the bag, first rep with full intent and live rounds, then focus the rest of session to fixing what I noticed went less than stellar.

What definitely is true that strong individuals have 1000 different ways to incorrectly muscle the gun, whereas weaker persons are naturally driven to use their bone structure / core muscles. A heavier gun might help you, at least as a thought experiment it sounds reasonable.

Just talked to another guy and said that I practically cannot operate the gun to a sane position and not have the gun automatically line with my eye anymore, which has been really nice to notice.

On another note, what helped me to build positions was to CHEAT in every way you can when building a position. How low can you go? How much support you can gain? Never train with "makeshift" positions or with rules you set for yourself to do some position harder than is possible - you need to train yourself to always take use of every bit of advantage possible.
Like rear tripod support and pump pillows. I’m still resisting… Maybe that’s the issue.
 
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Erm, are you referring to gadgets?

I only use what I am ready to carry around for unknown amount of distance.

Having a lot of external stuff also really hinders firing position work and especially evacuating from there.

Cheat with your body positions. Do not take a low bend when you can take a knee etc. Just finding the optimal shooting position in different places is easy in PRS comp when you can usually just copycat others, in other settings not so much. I am trying to train myself to always take instinctively the best position. What is even harder is then applying that correct position in optimal time. How long until you get sight picture? How long from that to taking the shot?

You can also do straight up muscle training with guns, when I started with pistols the first thing I did was to train to keep pistol in right hand extended until I got up to 7 minutes. Holding it there and trying to aim with that hand was serious business and translated to better aiming. I did not cock the gun, just pressed the trigger when a sights aligned with the target(s).

When the muscles start to spasm, try different ways to control them. You will notice it will not work directly just telling them to stop spasming...
Just like carrying a full coffee cup without spilling, the process becomes easier when no direct focus is used.
 
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Like rear tripod support and pump pillows. I’m still resisting… Maybe that’s the issue.
I’m resisting as well. I may start using them in competition, but for now my practice is without so I focus on fundamentals and not a crutch
 
Erm, are you referring to gadgets?

I only use what I am ready to carry around for unknown amount of distance.

Having a lot of external stuff also really hinders firing position work and especially evacuating from there.

Cheat with your body positions. Do not take a low bend when you can take a knee etc. Just finding the optimal shooting position in different places is easy in PRS comp when you can usually just copycat others, in other settings not so much. I am trying to train myself to always take instinctively the best position. What is even harder is then applying that correct position in optimal time. How long until you get sight picture? How long from that to taking the shot?

You can also do straight up muscle training with guns, when I started with pistols the first thing I did was to train to keep pistol in right hand extended until I got up to 7 minutes. Holding it there and trying to aim with that hand was serious business and translated to better aiming. I did not cock the gun, just pressed the trigger when a sights aligned with the target(s).

When the muscles start to spasm, try different ways to control them. You will notice it will not work directly just telling them to stop spasming...
Just like carrying a full coffee cup without spilling, the process becomes easier when no direct focus is used.

I like the hold idea. I’ve been doing something similar in that I’ve been getting on the barricade and just holding a position for 5 minutes, focusing on stability and NPA.
 
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Absolutely, your observation on the importance of stability for shooting skills is spot on! It's fascinating how targeted training can enhance those smaller stabilizing muscles critical for steady aim. If you're looking to complement your shooting with a fitness routine, you might find some valuable insights at https://fitnessown.com/faq. They often cover exercises and routines that can enhance stability, balance, and muscle control, which could be a game-changer for your shooting performance. Integrating exercises like core strengthening, yoga, or specific stability drills could potentially bridge that gap between gym strength and shooting stability.
 
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This is a fascinating video to watch and try to replicate the postures required for 3p standing. You can try it infront of a mirror. Keeping your bone structure neutral takes a lot of work and will make you sore in some odd places ! Soon the position and the stretching you see the shooters dow will make alot of sense!
 
One thought, on top of straight running/cardio, add in some rucking. Grab backpack, toss in 15-20 lbs to start and just walk. The weight will help with posture overall, encourage stability, etc. So if you're training to move around with weighted items over some number of steps, just recreate in a way. If you're not a fan of backpacks with weights, maybe just farmer carry some gallon milk jugs around the backyard, etc. Functional fitness and all.
 
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I noticed a significant improvement in my stability and comfort when I started incorporating yoga into my training. YMMV
 
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