FL sizing brass and bumping the shoulder; does it only work for 1 headstamp per setting?

[TheGerman]

Have a Redding S die and was setting it up in my Dillon 550. I was trying to set the FL sizing die up to where the shoulder is bumped back .003.

I started by inserting a fired case and slowly rotating the die clockwise every time, sized, measured, adjusted, etc. Did this until I got the reading I wanted. Put in a different headstamp of 223 brass and its .005 more at the shoulder than I was wanting.

Tried another case from the first headstamp of brass and its .001 over. I've been measuring with a set of calipers and the Hornady lock and load headspace comparator with the bushing in it.

So question, if I set up a die as far as bumping the shoulder:

1) What is the expected/acceptable variance (if any, with the Redding die I was expecting none)
2) Will the shoulder measurement really be that different on different headstamps of brass even thought they have gone through a FL sizing die? I was under the impression that they would be much more uniform.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Interested in answer...

BTW, was all this brass fired from the same rifle or was it mix-fired brass having been fired from various rifles?

 

[Infinity]

Tag, staying tuned, also curious...

 

[armorpl8chikn]

This is what I do. Not the best scenario but a necessary evil. When I am using surplus brass, often the only answer is to put it in a small base die, size the hell out of it and go from there. I have never had a case head seperation. Just make dang sure you have all once fired brass. Surplus brass invariably with a few exceptions come out of many different rifles, there is only one fix for brass like that when it has to function in YOUR rifle. How do you make sure it is once fired? Well there is a reason I prefer to buy OF brass with crimped primers. Some people say that is stupid and extra work. Yeah that may be true, but that crimp is my guarantee that brass has been fired ONCE.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I would only use the Dillon after I had fully processed the brass in another die. But that is just me. I would make annealing part of the treatment after a healthy sizing like I described as well.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

I would only use the Dillon after I had fully processed the brass in another die. But that is just me. I would make annealing part of the treatment after a healthy sizing like I described as well.

This!!!

Also, the only way I have achieved consistent brass measurements is with a single stage and a Redding competition shellholder set. Even then I have to sort headstamps and adjust accordingly (different shellholders).

 

[bjay]

Im guessing those are 223s? Id experienced that with mix headstamp simply because thicknes vary.. i sold those type s and got redding small base.. theres a reason whys redding called them "competition" its for people who trying to chase precise loads... wh use type s on different sort brass? For me that dont make sense not unless you sort them and use your type s in brass that fired same about times or same headstamp.. try your type s with same HS brass dont have to be match brass and youl get .002-.003.. unless some brass are fired more than the rest..it will also give you diff reading as brass that fired more get softer.
Its hard to get concistent number on diff HS brass.. manage the brass and youll get concistent readings

 

[SPAK]

I don't use a dillon but I do set up my FLS die to bump any where from .003-.004 on .223 blasting brass with mixed headstamps. I'd rather be under than not sized enough causing insufficient headspace or cycling problems.

If you're doing precision loads, then I would sort by headstamp/brand and you'll likely see much more consistent sizing measurments. Mixed brass I don't even expect it to be very close and I set my die to ensure cycling with all brands even if it means slightly overworking the brass to ensure proper function. Each brass brand can have different thickness and will likely size/springback differently when sized.

small base die will size the base of the case smaller, but not necessarily push the shoulders back further.

 

[SPAK]

Hum, annealing after sizing????? Generally the other way for me



Sent from my iPhone

Jt

I prefer to anneal before sizing, but I have done both before and after with no ill effects...

 

[TheGerman]

Interested in answer...

BTW, was all this brass fired from the same rifle or was it mix-fired brass having been fired from various rifles?

Some (very small sample that I haven't used because its from the same rifle) but most is once fired range pickup brass that I buy by the 1k bag.

Depending on what accuracy I get I may use all the once fired 'bulk' brass in my carbines and just buy virgin brass for the MK12.

 

[TheGerman]

Im guessing those are 223s? Id experienced that with mix headstamp simply because thicknes vary.. i sold those type s and got redding small base.. theres a reason whys redding called them "competition" its for people who trying to chase precise loads... wh use type s on different sort brass? For me that dont make sense not unless you sort them and use your type s in brass that fired same about times or same headstamp.. try your type s with same HS brass dont have to be match brass and youl get .002-.003.. unless some brass are fired more than the rest..it will also give you diff reading as brass that fired more get softer.
Its hard to get concistent number on diff HS brass.. manage the brass and youll get concistent readings

I usually sort by the same HS, was just curious because I was under the impression that a die set the brass to a specific dimension regardless of what its 'starting dimension' was; that is pretty much what I thought a die was. So with that logic, as long as it was able to be sized (and not too small) it SHOULD all come out the same.

What is a small base die? I looked and the ones I have are a Redding Type-S Match set.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

but most is once fired range pickup brass that I buy by the 1k bag.

Be leary of anything picked up on a range. If you go to a high power match you can pick up a pile of brass, hey it is range pickup, but you can always bet there is a reason it wasn't policed up after the match. Just saying be careful.

 

[TheGerman]

Be leary of anything picked up on a range. If you go to a high power match you can pick up a pile of brass, hey it is range pickup, but you can always bet there is a reason it wasn't policed up after the match. Just saying be careful.

For carbines I've done this for years. I'd be leery about bolt gun brass people left especially if its already been reloaded once. For my carbine 5.56/223, I inspect everything for a multitude of reasons from that it could be a different, yet very similar caliber, to separated necks to rims that were ripped off.

 

[bjay]

Are loading for bolt action or gas gun.. small base dies are design for gas

 

[TheGerman]

Are loading for bolt action or gas gun.. small base dies are design for gas

Gas, Mk12Mod1

What does a small base die do exactly? Just looked it up on Redding's site but doesn't really explain anything.

 

[shotdown]

A small base die will FLS a piece of brass to minimum dimensions. That will work the brass more than a standard FLS die.

I have my Dillon 1050 set to bump to 1.456. I noticed that range brass (or mixed brass) measurements will vary. However, fired brass from my chamber measures 1.460 so and the max I've gotten from range brass has been 1.458 so I will accept that.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

I usually sort by the same HS, was just curious because I was under the impression that a die set the brass to a specific dimension regardless of what its 'starting dimension' was; that is pretty much what I thought a die was. So with that logic, as long as it was able to be sized (and not too small) it SHOULD all come out the same.

What is a small base die? I looked and the ones I have are a Redding Type-S Match set.

Word, Springback, different lots of brass, even from the same manufacturer, can have slightly different alloy compositions, also slightly different internal dimensions (rate of taper from head to neck, case head dimensions, etc.).
Cases will be work hardened in the neck and shoulder area from repeated firings, increasing springback, this is why annealing can help.

I, personally have never needed a "small base die" in any of my gas operated rifles, others have, but fairly seldom.

Small base dies size the head area a bit more than standard dies, they normally not used to correct shoulder bump issues.

Most mil-spec chambers are pretty "generous" in size, making the fired cases come out "fat". That is where a small base die helps get a case to a minimum dimension that is just about guaranteed to chamber.

 

[ArmyJerry]

get with killshot and have him aneal your brass then size and load.

 

[bigedp51]

I have three five gallon buckets of once fired range pickup .223/5.56 brass, I got them when our local Police and SWAT teams were doing shooting drills at our range. I reload for two AR15 Rifles and one bolt action .223 rifle, I also have small base dies, standard dies, bushing dies and neck sizing dies.

Brass is elastic and when fired tries to spring back to its original shape, the key word here is "tries" to spring back. You are facing two problems, the range pickup brass wasn't fired in "your" chamber and the different type and brand cases do not have the same spring back rates.

I full length resize range pickup brass with a small base die "first" with the die making hard contact with the shell holder and the press reaching cam over. My .223 small base die only makes the case .0005 smaller in base diameter but it sizes further down the case than a standard FL die. I only do this once to return the brass to minimum dimensions, and after firing these cases in my AR15 rifles I use a standard .223 full length resizing die and then control the shoulder bump.

I also have the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge to measured the fired length of the case for proper die setup and shoulder bump. The variation in case headspace length you are getting when resizing is not the dies fault, you need uniform brass cases to get uniform sizing results.

With range pickup brass there is no consistency with shoulder bump so set your dies to set the should back a "minimum" of .002 to .003 and don't worry about the short cases. After these cases have been fired in your chamber they will become more uniform "BUT" you will always have variations in cartridge headspace length when resizing due to the different spring back rates of the brass.

At Accurateshooter.com people with custom rifles and Lupua brass will require annealing their cases with warm loads every two to four firings. And this is with brass from the same lot number and keeping a constant shoulder bump and spring back dimensions.

 

[TheGerman]

Just ran a small batch.

Dillon 550
Redding S-Type Match with .244 bushing
LC Brass (same HS) - all once fired from same AR
Lubed with Dillon lube

I'm getting an up to .005 variance in the shoulder measurement. This is driving me fucking crazy.

With the Dillon carbide .223 dies on my 55 grain/carbine brass the shoulder measurements are 99% of the time dead on.

What the hell is causing this? Too much lube, too little lube, the bushing? Need to hit the die with carb cleaner?

 

[SPAK]

Lube consistency is important..... Too little lube and the case will stick either in the neck area or at the base or even on the expander ball if you're using one... On the down stroke if the case sticks as it's coming out of the die you'll likely stretch the case which will affect your base to shoulder measurement. Too much lube and you can cause dents in the case when sizing.

carbide dies don't typically require lube if I'm not mistaken. This Might make up for lack of lube on some pieces making your overall sizing consistency a bit better.

 

[TheGerman]

Lube consistency is important..... Too little lube and the case will stick either in the neck area or at the base or even on the expander ball if you're using one... On the down stroke if the case sticks as it's coming out of the die you'll likely stretch the case which will affect your base to shoulder measurement. Too much lube and you can cause dents in the case when sizing.

carbide dies don't typically require lube if I'm not mistaken. This Might make up for lack of lube on some pieces making your overall sizing consistency a bit better.

I bet you thats what it is. There were a few times that the last 1/3 of the case needed some coaxing out of the die. I bet I need to hose them with lube and let it air dry better.

I'm starting to really like carbide dies better.

 

[SPAK]

For bulk loading, pistol and ar15 I can see a benefit of using carbide dies...if you're using an expander ball make sure that you lube the expander or the inside of the necks... I'm not a big fan of spray lubes although they seem easy and convenient... I much prefer imperial sizing wax. The best application of spray lube I've seen is to use a zip lock bag and roll the cases around in it with the lube in it then letting them dry..

 

[Hookman]

In my experience I have seen spring back and variance with different head stamps of brass that can cause this issue. I also run a Dillon 550B for my precision 223 and 308 loads. However, my first step with the brass is to lube it and run it through a Redding Body die for FL sizing on a single stage press. Then I tumble clean the lube and move to the Dillon. I use the Forster Bump bushing die without any lube and I get very consistent head space measurement.

 

[TheGerman]

Success!

Had something to do with the lube of all things.

I was only putting the handfull I was running on a shop towel and spraying them but decided to put 10 in a bag and spray, wait the full 5-10 minutes and then never run one case more than twice while re-setting up the die.

Got all 10 at exactly the same shoulder measurement.

 

[SPAK]

Sometimes it just the little things that make a big difference

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Glad you got it squared away!

 

[Pinecone]

One thing, when you set up a die, if you keep resizing the same case, you will get strange results.

1) You are resizing it several times by small amounts. This will give different results than resizing a single big jump.

2) When you resize several times, you are work hardening the brass. So you will be different results than from resizing case once.

I set the die, resize one case and measure. Reset the die, and size a different case. Etc.

 

[wareagle700]

I haven't read every post but this is a thought.

How long do you hold your press handle down? If its a quick cycle its my understanding that its possible for the brass to spring back if it is hard enough. However, im not an expert reloader. I still crank away on my RCBS single stage but I do pay close attention to details. I had the same trouble loading for my .308 gas gun. The problem was that I wasn't bumping the shoulder at all and I just assumed it was giving me different results.