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Gunsmithing Flame on.

Wheres-Waldo

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 2, 2008
1,658
534
Unknown
Bust out the beer and popcorn, not that I'de imagine there is anyone here who would defend...

Lawton Machine & Tool

Early September 2009 I call up Bobby at LMT and discussed a build Ide like to start, we discuss details, he suggests quite a few things to me, and I bite them.

So I send in my action, and as my records show, the action and a $300.00 down payment are in the mail in early Oct. 2009 (EDIT: Sept 28). Having discussed all details of the action/barrel with Bobby Lawton, I was told it would be around early-mid dec. 2009 before it was done.

Details
- 6.5x47 Lapua Improved
- .292" neck (although none of the 7 invoices from now to then ever show that)
- 26" LER contour
- 3 groove barrel
- stress relieving
- powder coating of action and barrel
- install SF 338 Cal. muzzle brake
- die set
- bolt fluting (although none of the invoices will ever show that either)

I was told the barrel was on hand, and why I agree'd to the powder coating I havent a damn clue.

Well, I go to 29 Palms for a month for Mojave Viper. There I get in touch with Bobby again to see how things were going. I will be honest here and say I dont remember much about what we discussed.

I do remember being optimistic about the due date, because I was scheduled to deploy about a week after I was told it would be done. I didnt bother them much in Oct and Nov as I know a gunsmith cant talk on the phone and chamber a barrel at the same time. Well December comes and goes, and they quote me a new date of early 2010. They also let me know they didnt have the equipment to flute an M2008 bolt...no big deal.

I deploy, and as we all know, its not easy to manage these things from an LAV-25 outside of Marjah Afghanistan. I make it a point to have phone sex w/ my girl and check in with LMT every time I make it back to the FOB.

Feb. 8th - I recieve my 2nd invoice vie e-mail. It basicly asks how are they to be expected to chamber a barrel with no action? I quickly got on the phone to unfuck that delima
grin.gif


Mar. 3rd - I am asked when they should expect to see the required deposit of $350.00, although Bobby told me $300.00 sent w/ my action would suffice? Well, they misplaced it, and I'm not sure if they ever found it, or just credited me the $300.00 I sent w/ the action.
I also get most of the details of the job to be reflected on my invoice, Most notably that I did send in an action, and a down payment.



We talk very sparcely on and off a few times, with due dates being pushed back again and again until around early Sept., when the builder wasnt sure of a few details. I will say here that the shop manager Jackson was metioned to me, he was very helpful.

Well, on Oct 4th....(2010 this time), I get an e-mail that my barreled action is ready, and will be shipped out. Oh thank God!

I'm very excited to see what awaits me in the mail.

I open the box to a very hefty barreled action and start admiring, then inspecting. Heres what I found.

There are 2 big spots that were missed durring the coating of the action.

Here is the rear tang, uncoated.
PICT0036.jpg

Here is the upper inside of the ejection port, uncoated.
PICT0037.jpg


The bolt isnt coated.

The barrel is 5 grooves, not 3.

I doubt the neck is .292"

Several worn/chipped areas, scratches.
(These Im not particularly worried about. Its not going to stay pretty for ever.)

The side bolt release is only coated on the portion that sticks out; I guess the powdercoating was too thick to apply on parts that interact w/ eachother....Its odd how Bobby didnt mention the inability to do this when we discussed the finish, back over a year ago.

I havent payed them anything over the $300.00 I sent in at the beginning, and havent spoke with them tonight (picked the action up around 6pm EST) but I'm not pleased right now.

Part 2 Tomarrow!


 
Re: Flame on.

Glad you shared your story.

Makes me even more firm in my resolve to use only my gunsmith.
 
Re: Flame on.

Wow they have it for year and in return you get that, boy.
 
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Never did hear why things went south with them and SH? Not that it matters.

Nothing personally against them and sure not beating up a dead gent but after 1 conversation with Barney and 1 with Jerry Stiller deciding whos action, specs, would fit my needs I NEVER had any desire to call Lawton back!!!! Absolutely almost complete opposite customer service. Not saying I wouldn't have been satisfied with a Lawton but couldn't be happier with the 3 Stillers I currently have(course now I am more of a pessimist and a hoarder of sorts so 2 are still NIB, 1 from first group buy and 1 from 3rd...can't bring myself to use/abuse them!!!)
smile.gif
 
Re: Flame on.

Not defending anyone, I have several custom actions and all of their side releases are uncoated below what is "seen" when it is not pressed. The coating or lack of on the rest of the surfaces is uncalled for.
 
Re: Flame on.

I feel your pain. I bought a Lawton 7500 action and the scope base they sent with the action would not fit. I called and explained the situation and was told there was run of bad bases. They promptly sent me a new base, still did not fit. So now I'm pissed. You would think if you spend $950 on an action/scope base it would be right. I sent the action back to be checked. When I received it back the scope base was installed. All they did was open up one of the holes in the scope base so it would fit on the action. It looked like someone took a hand drill and wallowed out the hole. Needless to say I got a refund and will never deal with them again. To top it off, they try to charge me a $90 restocking fee for returning the action.
 
Re: Flame on.

Once Barney passed away, it has been a very public downhill ride for Lawton. It really is a shame. They produced (past tense) some nice equipment and had some concept of customer service.

Josh
 
Re: Flame on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: keydiverfla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not defending anyone, I have several custom actions and all of their side releases are uncoated below what is "seen" when it is not pressed. The coating or lack of on the rest of the surfaces is uncalled for. </div></div>

If you get a black oxide coated action from us, the complete bolt release is coated.
 
Re: Flame on.

The only consolation I have is that the barrel doesn't have iron sights. That is always an advantage because when you stick it up their ass, it should go more smoothly.
 
Re: Flame on.

Well, Im kind of in a bind.

I still need to maintain a working relationship with Lawton, because if I piss all in thier cherrios now, I'll never get my dies from them.

If I dont get my dies, I would have a hard time finding anyone being able to make me dies for a chamber I cant be 100% sure of the specs on. ( I know what I requested, but as Ive seen so far, that doesnt mean thats what Ive gotten.)

Ive tried calling all hours of the day since this thread started, Ive left a vague voicemail saying I need to "discuss billing". Hopefully I get a call back.

Im not really willing to send them my rifle back, because God knows how long it could be before I get it back the second time.
 
Re: Flame on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wheres-Waldo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, Im kind of in a bind.

I still need to maintain a working relationship with Lawton, because if I piss all in thier cherrios now, I'll never get my dies from them.

If I dont get my dies, I would have a hard time finding anyone being able to make me dies for a chamber I cant be 100% sure of the specs on. ( I know what I requested, but as Ive seen so far, that doesnt mean thats what Ive gotten.)

Ive tried calling all hours of the day since this thread started, Ive left a vague voicemail saying I need to "discuss billing". Hopefully I get a call back.

Im not really willing to send them my rifle back, because God knows how long it could be before I get it back the second time. </div></div>

Why not just be Proactive ? They are not communicating obviously and you may just be sitting patiently for another year or so to find out the dies are as screwed up as the rest is.Your own fault based on what they have already shown you.I would just cut my losses at this point,JMHO.

We have more than one Great Smith on this site,hell,you might even have one locally.Get a hold of someone and see what it will take to turn your project around so you can start shooting it.Including making you a set of dies.Then pay Lawton the difference.Seems like a pretty fair and simple solution to me.
 
Re: Flame on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wheres-Waldo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, Im kind of in a bind.

I still need to maintain a working relationship with Lawton, because if I piss all in thier cherrios now, I'll never get my dies from them.</div></div>

Call Dave Kiff at PTG and quiz him on Lawtons 6.5x47L AI reamer. Chances are, he made it for them. Order a FL die reamer from Kiff and a Newlon Die blank from Newlon. Have a FL and Seat die made by some one who actually gives a damn and tell Lawton to shove off. They're stringing you along at this point.

PTG
Newlon Die Blank
 
Re: Flame on.

Might wanna check to see if the action is crooked like mine was among the many other fucked up shit on the gun.Wish I had known they are notorious for sending out fucked up shit and really late on top of it.. There needs to be more post like this to warn future customers. Fuck Lawton Machine and that worthless junkie that works there!

BTW this time I got a Stiller and the quality is top notch!!
 
Re: Flame on.

OK gentlemen....

A question before I act.

So me paying my $300.00 was for materials (barrel(and the wrong barrel at that)). If the work is sub-par, and I tell Lawton that I'm not willing to pay (if I can ever get ahold of them), does that leave me subject to any legal reprocusions?

EDIT: And at what point should I say to myself that "I just cant reach them...fuck it"



 
Re: Flame on.

I would have the barrel pulled and tell Lawton I wanted my money back and they can have their POS barrel and work back. If they won't refund your money I would still pitch the barrel, there is no telling how screwed up it is but seeing how everythig else was done half ass I would assume the chamber and threads are not up to par also. Then box up your action and send it to Louisiana or OK.you will be money ahead and happy as hell when you get it back.
 
Re: Flame on.

Legal advice over the internet is nearly worthless.

Contact an actual face-to-face lawyer, take your product and paperwork, and ask if there is any more that you are responsible for; from what you've said, there isn't anything to suggest that you owe anybody anything. You paid for a product (barrel) and a service (fit and chamber) and you received neither. However, they can still contact you and say that you still owe them money, which you can refute by your possession of the barrelled action.

Base legal should be able to help you out.
 
Re: Flame on.

I need to add that the neck dia. measured out at the .292" that I requested.

If I dont hear back from Lawton by Oct 22, Im going to seek legal advice then concider it a done deal and get dies made elsewhere.
 
Re: Flame on.

I had similar issues when dealing them. I still don't think I actually got what I paid for, but I guess you'll never really know...The gun does seem to shoot pretty well, but I've since dropped them like a bad habit.

There's no need to have to stress and worry about your gunsmith's timeline, ability and motivation to actually get you what you asked and paid for. Lawton is a shining example of a once good company absolutely ran into the ground by poor customer service and attention to detail.
 
Re: Flame on.

I Tried to call them today and check on my Base and dies that are all paid for and way past due,and phone number is disconnected,guess that is one way not do deal with all there problems?
 
Re: Flame on.

Ive been able to get the phone to ring every day. Good thing I left a voicemail when I did, because it seems the voicemail prompt is gone now.

406 683 2388 is what Ive been trying to reach them at.

And I just called and it is disconnected....
 
Re: Flame on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wheres-Waldo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive been able to get the phone to ring every day. Good thing I left a voicemail when I did, because it seems the voicemail prompt is gone now.

406 683 2388 is what Ive been trying to reach them at.

And I just called and it is disconnected.... </div></div>

Looks like you may have a "Free Build" on your hands,get your dies and the finish squared away and enjoy shooting it.
grin.gif


Gotta ask one thing though,is Powder Coating an acceptable finish for a gun of any sort ? I asked about it years ago in ref to a project and was told it is a really bad idea.Way too thick and won't hold up at all
 
Re: Flame on.

Cpl Thaxton,

If I were in your shoes I'd be trying to secure a loaner rifle for that match if at all possible. Do you know other people in the area or coming to the match that may be able to hook you up?

If not, I suspect some generous soul here on SH may be able to fix you up, if you can live with 308 instead of a hot rod 6.5.
 
Re: Flame on.

I bought a 7000 long action on a group buy here. The action was fine. I had my rifle built by a local gunsmith. The problem came when I got to the base. I wanted a 30 MOA base and was told that I had to go through Lawton. the lady on the phone was very nice and took my CC number. She then transfered me to some guy in the back. When he picked up all I heard was him yelling at someone in the back ground that he was an F'ing asshole. He then said yeah I'll get it out. 3 phone calls and 2 months later I got my base. If they are still around I will NEVER buy another Lawton product again.
 
Re: Flame on.

Ive got no upcomming matches, although if someone wants to loan me a donar rifle, I wont complain!

Funny how everyone is talking about custom bases around here, as I got a 12 mil. base made for this action while it was still at Lawtons. I put it on before the pictures, and it fit like a glove. Thanks again Jason AKA strictlyRUM....

On the powder coating.... Im not sure why I agree'd to go with that coating, Bobby seemed to have good things to say about it. It is thick, too thick to coat the bolt I guess, and no lubricating properties that Im aware of. The coating, although not the greatest looking, isnt of much importance other than keeping this thing from rusting on me.

Im really worried about putting this thing in a barrel vice and taking the powder-coated barrel off, Im sure it will get chipped to hell and back.
 
Re: Flame on.

I hope they're still in buisness. I paid for my build in full, november '09. Spoke to Jackson last week (had been leaving messages every day for 2 weeks) and he said they should be shipping by the end of the month.

I REALLY hope they ship my rifle!

Does anyone live near them and feel like making a visit to make sure they're still open?
 
Re: Flame on.

Goin, were you just having barrel work done, or a full build?

Does anyone know a forum anyone from Lawton currently uses, or another phone number for them?
 
Re: Flame on.

Full build. I supplied the stock and bottom metal.

I sent them an email and Jackson said a storm took out the phones and they're putting a new system in.
 
Re: Flame on.

lawton has always returned a call, or email and has answered all my question in the last two months or so. wish ppl if there going to complain or bad mouth a company they would at least use there name. enought said
 
Re: Flame on.

I've sent 1 email per day and left 1 message per day asking Jackson for a return call and I've YET to get it. Now, this has only been for about the last two weeks and they've only had the money for my build for a year so....... maybe I'm asking for too much.

Jim

Is my name and jacksons name good enough for ya??
 
Re: Flame on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ralph barnes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lawton has always returned a call, or email and has answered all my question in the last two months or so. wish ppl if there going to complain or bad mouth a company they would at least use there name. enought said</div></div> I wish people would learn what a shift key and the difference between they're, there, and their is...

Nuff' said.
 
Re: Flame on.

well I got my base, still no dies been about 4 months now and no return call in about a month (unreal)
 
Re: Flame on.

Not putting anyone down because I have never done business with them, but for future use, go with Stiller and you will be very satisfied with the quality and customer service they provide. Can't say enough good things about the whole group.
 
Re: Flame on.

n2turbos maybe you will be lucky. I ordered two 7000's late last summer and got them in about 8 weeks after a gazillion calls to "Jackson" and secretary.
 
Re: Flame on.

To the OP:

I share your pain. I dealt with Lawton on a couple different rifles and their customer service is PITIFUL. Their company is headed for the crapper, and quickly.

Just as an example..... I had a single shot 375CT built up. They sent the rifle to the painter in pieces. And I mean pieces, it was a box of an action, barrel, trigger, stock (which was broken when I got it) and all of it floating around a box packed with old newspapers.

They barreled a 338LM action for me with their barrel. I asked for a heavy contour with deep spiral fluting. I got a truck axle instead. I also ask that it be threaded 3/4x24 for a suppressor, it came 5/8x24. I had to pay George Gardner at GAP to actually get the rifle assembled and coated correctly, my Manners stock went back to Tom for bedding because Lawton "forgot to bed it". I had dies made for the rifle, they sent me 338 Snipe Tac dies instead of lapua magnum.

Their classic line is blaming everything on their secretary. She must be a miserable old fool for as dumb as she sounds. Bobby Lawton is a joke, he promises gold and gives you lead.

Your best to burn that bridge and MOVE ON from them. They will always delay and/or screw you over.
 
Re: Flame on.

where do I get replacment bolt releases? I have 3 of their actions. I don't have a broken one now but need to get a few for the future.

I WON'T call Lawton.
 
Re: Flame on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toygunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">n2turbos maybe you will be lucky. I ordered two 7000's late last summer and got them in about 8 weeks after a gazillion calls to "Jackson" and secretary. </div></div>

no such luck. Its been going on for over a year. and I still have the piece of crap that they sent me, and not the replacement that they promised me.
I will let everyone know how it turns out.