Sidearms & Scatterguns Flinch appears over time?

[Srikaleak]

Just got back from the range shooting my pistols from 3-10 yds. As the range session goes on it is pretty noticeable that a flinch develops whereas at the start of the range session I can hit center of a 4in circle at any distance. Any tips or tricks to help me train out of it? All I know to do is more dry fire practice. I have posted my cones of shame so you guys can get a better idea of what I am talking about.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Some people flinch do to noise first an recoil second. Define your issue first, then apply the correction.

 

[Srikaleak]

Some people flinch do to noise first an recoil second. Define your issue first, then apply the correction.

Any tips on what kind of corrections I can pursue if my issue is recoil? I try not to anticipate the shot and deliberately pull the trigger. I can definitely feel myself yanking the trigger if I start getting fatigued. I guess I could also start working out my shoulders and doing grip exercises to compensate.

 

[MtnCreek]

Add some double action revolver shooting.

 

[steve123]

Any tips on what kind of corrections I can pursue if my issue is recoil? I try not to anticipate the shot and deliberately pull the trigger. I can definitely feel myself yanking the trigger if I start getting fatigued. I guess I could also start working out my shoulders and doing grip exercises to compensate.

With you and many others, what happens is you are anticipating the shot, thus the recoil and noise, thus you flinch.
The pistol must be dead at the shot and you following through, that's the main thing to grouping with a pistol.

I'm serious here, buy a decent pellet pistol and shoot it often practicing all the basics, then do exactly the same thing you've practiced with the real pistol.

Make this your goal, at 3 yards bullet holes should be touching the red dot on your target. At 10Y you should be putting most shots in the 9 ring.

 

[corey4]

what i have done is the ball and dummie drill by myself. if you don't know what the ball and dummie drill is, google it. this is usually done with 2 people at 3 yds, but can be done by yourself.

i take 10 mags and 5 live rounds and 5 dummy rounds. i load only one round in each mag, that gives you 5 dummy mags and 5 live mags. put the 10 mags in my range bag. i look up at the sky, grab a mag, rack the slide and load the round. i have no idea if it's a dummie or a live round...that's the whole point. take aim at a bulls eye of some sort and press the trigger. if you have a flinch and a dummy round, you'll see yourself drop the front of the pistol. if you have a live round, you'll drop the shot.

maybe incorporate that into your train regime next time you go to the range. when you see yourself dropping shots, do some ball and dummy rounds.

to ad to the drill, i do this like we would with a dot drill with rifles. i take 10 dummy rounds and 20, 30 live rounds and dumped them all in a bag. i look up at the sky, grab a few rounds from the mixed bag, and load those into a mag. you can 2, 3, 5, 8 rounds...whatever you wanna do. then take those few mags, toss them in your range bag, look up at the sky, reach in and grab a mag. now you have no idea how many rounds you have, and how many live rounds or dummy rounds in each mag. the purpose of the drill is the same principal. aim at each dot, press the trigger and you go boom or you go click; and you drop the front sight/shot or you don't. this is what helped me get over my trigger snatch.

 

[Srikaleak]

what i have done is the ball and dummie drill by myself. if you don't know what the ball and dummie drill is, google it. this is usually done with 2 people at 3 yds, but can be done by yourself.

i take 10 mags and 5 live rounds and 5 dummy rounds. i load only one round in each mag, that gives you 5 dummy mags and 5 live mags. put the 10 mags in my range bag. i look up at the sky, grab a mag, rack the slide and load the round. i have no idea if it's a dummie or a live round...that's the whole point. take aim at a bulls eye of some sort and press the trigger. if you have a flinch and a dummy round, you'll see yourself drop the front of the pistol. if you have a live round, you'll drop the shot.

maybe incorporate that into your train regime next time you go to the range. when you see yourself dropping shots, do some ball and dummy rounds.

to ad to the drill, i do this like we would with a dot drill with rifles. i take 10 dummy rounds and 20, 30 live rounds and dumped them all in a bag. i look up at the sky, grab a few rounds from the mixed bag, and load those into a mag. you can 2, 3, 5, 8 rounds...whatever you wanna do. then take those few mags, toss them in your range bag, look up at the sky, reach in and grab a mag. now you have no idea how many rounds you have, and how many live rounds or dummy rounds in each mag. the purpose of the drill is the same principal. aim at each dot, press the trigger and you go boom or you go click; and you drop the front sight/shot or you don't. this is what helped me get over my trigger snatch.

I really like this idea. The only issue is, since I use snapcaps, I can tell the difference between a live and dummy round. I guess what I can do is randomly insert dummy and live rounds, mix the mags in the bag, then pick at random. I love the idea of varying the amount of rounds as well. I will try this at distance and see if that helps but it sounds promising.

@MtnCreek As far as using a double action revolver, I've got a DA/SA USP9 and that trigger pull is heavy (which is probably the point). Will practicing the DA trigger pull also improve my SA trigger pull as well?

 

[Doogie]

Same here with the ball and dummy just a slight variation. Usually do 2 live rounds and 8 dummy randomly loaded per mag. Then throw several of these mags in a bag.

1-Blind grab a mag from a bag and insert into mag well.

2-Perform three quality dry fires in a row to reinforce proper sight picture.

3-Tilt chamber away so you can’t see what round is being loaded and rack slide.

4-Add pressure on trigger gradually until sear release/hammer drop.

5a-If click, assess sight movement. For a bad trigger press (i.e. not like dry fire) repeat from step 2 until mag is empty.

5b-If click and good trigger press (i.e like dry fire) tap mag for FTF drill and repeat from 3 until mag is empty.

5c-If bang release trigger and repeat from 4.

As you get better substitute in more live rounds.

 

[corey4]

I really like this idea. The only issue is, since I use snapcaps, I can tell the difference between a live and dummy round.

i use the red snap caps as well. how are you able to tell the difference when you don't look at the mag when you load it?

I guess what I can do is randomly insert dummy and live rounds, mix the mags in the bag, then pick at random.

that's pretty much what i was getting at.

 

[MtnCreek]

I really like this idea. The only issue is, since I use snapcaps, I can tell the difference between a live and dummy round. I guess what I can do is randomly insert dummy and live rounds, mix the mags in the bag, then pick at random. I love the idea of varying the amount of rounds as well. I will try this at distance and see if that helps but it sounds promising.

@MtnCreek As far as using a double action revolver, I've got a DA/SA USP9 and that trigger pull is heavy (which is probably the point). Will practicing the DA trigger pull also improve my SA trigger pull as well?

Yes. Long, stiff trigger pull will tell on you if you dip the barrel the slightest bit, more so than a sa or striker trigger. It forces you to focus on smooth, strait pull. Lowering the hammer every shot sounds like a pain. A dbl action revolver or even a p250 (everyone hates them) can be had for cheap.

 

[Srikaleak]

@corey4 Live rounds are heavier and the brass casing is much smoother than my abused snap caps. Shouldn't matter as I have 6 mags to randomly load and pick from. My 30rd mag may be too obvious though
@MtnCreek @Doogie Looking forward to practicing your proposed techniques next time I hit the range

 

[Texar2]

Lots of dry firing will help. I mean lots.

 

[Smokyred]

Plenty of dry-firing, and I started shooting .22 pistol. That helped me ALOT.

Dave

 

[Snuby642]

Noise and recoil?
Double earpro , foamies or custom and muffs! No excuse for this.
Reduced velocity rounds.
I mix reduced and standard sometimes to see if I start to shoot it differently.

Both a cheap addition to the rest of the training drills mentioned.

As Smokeyred said a 22, I alternate between them on the range sometimes when shooting something that is snappy.

 

[Bradu]

I anticipate the recoil shooting pistol and drop the muzzle. I've fought it for a while and as Corey said, the snap caps help a lot. My problem is I don't shoot enough so my bad habits are still there. I shoot about 2" low at 7 yards but it's amazing how consistently I am lol

 

[Snuby642]

Maybe the ergonomics of that gun does not fit you.
9's are not that punishing normally, I shoot compact 9's without discomfort,
Some better than others. I don't want to start a mine is better shitfest.

Fact is some brands fit some shooters better!
If you can try a couple of different similar size guns that may make a difference.

When brand g first came out I thought they sucked because they didn't fit me.
Now on gen 3? They fit me fine and I can hit with them.
They changed the ergonomics of it, same size.

 

[Srikaleak]

Maybe the ergonomics of that gun does not fit you.
9's are not that punishing normally, I shoot compact 9's without discomfort,
Some better than others. I don't want to start a mine is better shitfest.

Fact is some brands fit some shooters better!
If you can try a couple of different similar size guns that may make a difference.

When brand g first came out I thought they sucked because they didn't fit me.
Now on gen 3? They fit me fine and I can hit with them.
They changed the ergonomics of it, same size.

You might be on to something. I've committed to carrying and purchasing the HK USP line of pistols (I own a Full size and expert with a tactical 9 in my future) It's like shooting a brick but I am accurate with it, just not after 2 hrs of practice.

 

[...]

Sounds more like fatigue than a flinch......flinches are generally not sporadic, either you have it or you don’t.

Sounds like you are just gettin tired and letting your fundamentals slip.

When you see your groups start to open, take a break for 20-30 minutes, do a couple dry fires, and start shouting again.

I don’t understand why people recommend dry firing for hours and hours.... it doesn’t do dick.

 

[Snuby642]

Maybe you just have fatigue, that is a long range session with a pistol.
Break it into segments and chill for a while between, I'm old so nobody laughs much when I do.
Lol

 

[BravoKilo]

$20 says it's not a flinch but fatigue and you're giving up on the grip (i.e. grip it harder).

 

[Slash0311]

Without seeing you shoot, it's very difficult to diagnose many issues.

I agree with dry-firing and using dummy rounds. But heres what I'd toss into the mix that i didnt see mentioned.

1. Have someone go to the range with you and have them load your mags. Any random number of live and dummy rounds. This may help if you can feel a difference between them or if you only have a couple magazines.

2. Have someone video you shooting. Then watch and look for differences. Does your grip change? More or less finger on the trigger? Little things can add up. I usually explain that I can work with a novice shooter and make a few suggestions and make big gains. You take a better shooter and you really need to start working to make even minor gains in groups.

 

[Precision Underground]

Other than dry fire and dummy rounds what helps me a lot is to get my focus off of the gun. I know you need to focus on the front sight but don’t hyper focus on it. If your brain is “in the gun” you can’t help but anticipate the shot.

Focus on the front sight with your eyes, focus on the task with your mind. The task is to hit the target. If you are hyper focused on the sights and the trigger pull you are setting yourself up to flinch. It is hard to convey what I mean but when shooting well I literally feel like I am putting my brain (focus) down range in front of the gun. I am looking at the sight/reticle, but my mind is away from the gun so there is no anticipation or reaction. I figured this out when pondering why at the range other people shots did not make me flinch but when spotting for people shooting rifles, especially rifles with brakes, I would always flinch when they broke the shot. It’s because when spotting I had my brain on their gun, waiting for the shot.

Once I learned to focus on the sights/reticle with my eyes while focusing on the task with my brain and being very deliberate with the trigger, shooting felt completely different; rifle and pistol. Its kind of a detached/watching it happen feeling.

A lot of people love to pass on the usual “focus on the sight, focus on the reticle, squeeze the trigger, niiiice and slow, let it surprise you, etc...” not saying any of that is wrong but it is literally the opposite of how I shoot. Yes I look at the sight or the reticle but I’m not “focused” on it with my mind. My mind is on the task of hitting the target with the bullet. I don’t squeeze the trigger slow, I deliberately press it without any other movement. And I can’t imagine why in the hell anyone would want their gun to surprise them. I know it is going to go bang and I am going to make it go bang exactly when I want it to but I’m not even paying attention to it so there is no anticipation or reaction.

Maybe that makes sense to someone other than me lol.

 

[Switchblade]

 

[Alphatreedog]

The first thing I thought was fatigue. You might try structuring range sessions ahead of tme as to what you'll be training . Accuracy , recoil management drills , push out from compressed , aquisition from low ready , trigger reset . Depending on what I'm trainig for I only load the rouns nescessary in a mag . Usually no mre than six rounds . It forces you to release your grip . Also no more than five mags and a break . No comps have you running 8 nineteen round mag dumps . You may alao want to limit your training to a couple three hundred rounds . Focused razor sharp short training intervals are more productive than blastin away for hours .
Shoot more often . If you're shooting two to three times a week in shorter training sessions you will be fresher and your live fire dynamics ie; grip , recoil management and all the other tangeables of the shooting sequence will solidify . You'll be surprised . Don't forget dryfire . This is as important as any other component of your training . It hardqires muscle memory of correct sight alignment , grip , trigger squeeze etc . It's like driving a car . You can drive seventy miles an hour and subconciously make minute adjustments to maintain course . The same with your ahooting dynamics . I have found that my brain will auto correct a bad sight picture
Milliseconds before I sqeeze and get that flash sight picture from a dry fire cycle .
Draw , hands meet to grip , push out and trigger prep , sight . I find when that picture is less than optimum that as I sqeeze it trues up and click , flash sight picture .
Dry fire more than you live fire . Doesnt have to be more than a half an hour . Just employ the same structure as mentioned above . Train with purpose .
For clarity any the things I pointed out that may be negative were for generalization , not an idictement . Good luck .

 

[Switchblade]

Two words: Dry Fire
In the Marine's we called it 'snapping in'. You snap into position onto a scaled target, do your brass thing, and dry fire...for at least 30 minutes