Is it possible to flute a barrell which is already on a rifle? I guess a builder could take the barrel off, flute it and put it back on? I have a medium heavy barreled custom gun which I would like to lighten up.
Gunsmithing fluting a mounted barrel
- Thread starter Buzzsaw
- Start date
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
Depending on how much lighter you want the rifle fluting may not be the way to go. You may want to just turn it down to a lighter contour... this removes much more material making it lighter, then possibly flute it. in proportion your really not removing much material when fluting.
Depending on how much lighter you want the rifle fluting may not be the way to go. You may want to just turn it down to a lighter contour... this removes much more material making it lighter, then possibly flute it. in proportion your really not removing much material when fluting.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it possible to flute a barrell which is already on a rifle? I guess a builder could take the barrel off, flute it and put it back on? I have a medium heavy barreled custom gun which I would like to lighten up. </div></div>
It is possible. If it was a factory barrel set up that I wanted to lighten up I would probably cut the barrel down and recrown first choice. It will shoot as it did always, and just be a bit lighter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it possible to flute a barrell which is already on a rifle? I guess a builder could take the barrel off, flute it and put it back on? I have a medium heavy barreled custom gun which I would like to lighten up. </div></div>
It is possible. If it was a factory barrel set up that I wanted to lighten up I would probably cut the barrel down and recrown first choice. It will shoot as it did always, and just be a bit lighter.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
Any good machinist or gunsmith could have this done. The question is it worth it to flute this barrel or buy a new one that comes fluted? Are you satisfied with how this barrel shoots, length, etc? If so and the cost is right, then by all means flute it.
I would strongly oppose cutting a contour OR shortening the barrel. For many reasons. Medium to Heavy barrels vs contoured barrels are more rigid and thus more consistent shooters. That's not to say that contour barrels are bad, but medium-heavy are better. They take longer to heat up and are less prone to flexing under heat.
Similarly, if you shorten the barrel you will sacrifice muzzle velocity and change the performance of your gun. How long is the barrel you currently have installed? There is a rough 20fps difference per inch removed or added. The longer the barrel (within reason) the more time the powder has to build pressure and burn. Thus creating a higher velocity bullet. This allows longer flatter shots. I personally wouldn't want to sacrifice velocity for a few ounces of weight.
Fluting the barrel is a great option. It adds rigidity and it is 100% proven to help cool a barrel faster vs non-fluted barrels. Ideally, I like to shoot the heaviest non-tapered barrel I can find, fluted, with a muzzle brake. Allows for consistency, and less effect of barrel whip. But then again, it depends on your needs. These are my preferences based on FACTS.
You have to ask yourself a few questions- what is this gun/barrel primarily used for? Hunting, range, competition? Keep in mind that weight affects a lot. The lighter the gun the more felt recoil you will experience. The heavier the gun the less recoil you will feel as it absorbs part of the force. Typically, most shooters can more steadily hold a heavier rifle for the time it takes to make a shot. So, is losing weight your primary goal? or upgrading your barrel?
How satisfied are you with the current barrel? Is it good enough to keep for the cost of fluting? Or for the price of a new fluted barrel more likely the option? You can get competition grade heavy fluted rifle barrels for $300.
Let me know what you think. PM me anytime too
Any good machinist or gunsmith could have this done. The question is it worth it to flute this barrel or buy a new one that comes fluted? Are you satisfied with how this barrel shoots, length, etc? If so and the cost is right, then by all means flute it.
I would strongly oppose cutting a contour OR shortening the barrel. For many reasons. Medium to Heavy barrels vs contoured barrels are more rigid and thus more consistent shooters. That's not to say that contour barrels are bad, but medium-heavy are better. They take longer to heat up and are less prone to flexing under heat.
Similarly, if you shorten the barrel you will sacrifice muzzle velocity and change the performance of your gun. How long is the barrel you currently have installed? There is a rough 20fps difference per inch removed or added. The longer the barrel (within reason) the more time the powder has to build pressure and burn. Thus creating a higher velocity bullet. This allows longer flatter shots. I personally wouldn't want to sacrifice velocity for a few ounces of weight.
Fluting the barrel is a great option. It adds rigidity and it is 100% proven to help cool a barrel faster vs non-fluted barrels. Ideally, I like to shoot the heaviest non-tapered barrel I can find, fluted, with a muzzle brake. Allows for consistency, and less effect of barrel whip. But then again, it depends on your needs. These are my preferences based on FACTS.
You have to ask yourself a few questions- what is this gun/barrel primarily used for? Hunting, range, competition? Keep in mind that weight affects a lot. The lighter the gun the more felt recoil you will experience. The heavier the gun the less recoil you will feel as it absorbs part of the force. Typically, most shooters can more steadily hold a heavier rifle for the time it takes to make a shot. So, is losing weight your primary goal? or upgrading your barrel?
How satisfied are you with the current barrel? Is it good enough to keep for the cost of fluting? Or for the price of a new fluted barrel more likely the option? You can get competition grade heavy fluted rifle barrels for $300.
Let me know what you think. PM me anytime too
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You can get competition grade heavy fluted rifle barrels for $300.
Let me know what you think. PM me anytime too </div></div>
Plus 200 bucks to get it chambered/threaded (unless you have a savage)...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You can get competition grade heavy fluted rifle barrels for $300.
Let me know what you think. PM me anytime too </div></div>
Plus 200 bucks to get it chambered/threaded (unless you have a savage)...
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fluting the barrel is a great option. It adds rigidity and it is 100% proven to help cool a barrel faster vs non-fluted barrels. Ideally, I like to shoot the heaviest non-tapered barrel I can find, fluted, with a muzzle brake. Allows for consistency, and less effect of barrel whip. But then again, it depends on your needs. These are my preferences based on FACTS. </div></div>
based on facts, how does fluting a barrel add rigidity? the barrel has less mass so it is also going to heat up faster. is the "cooling off faster" going to outweigh the heating up faster? i have shot some long strings of fire during matches and never once did i say, damn, i wish i had a fluted barrel so it would cool off faster. even on long strings of fire, heat was and is a non-issue for heavy barrel bolt action rifles in my mind.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fluting the barrel is a great option. It adds rigidity and it is 100% proven to help cool a barrel faster vs non-fluted barrels. Ideally, I like to shoot the heaviest non-tapered barrel I can find, fluted, with a muzzle brake. Allows for consistency, and less effect of barrel whip. But then again, it depends on your needs. These are my preferences based on FACTS. </div></div>
based on facts, how does fluting a barrel add rigidity? the barrel has less mass so it is also going to heat up faster. is the "cooling off faster" going to outweigh the heating up faster? i have shot some long strings of fire during matches and never once did i say, damn, i wish i had a fluted barrel so it would cool off faster. even on long strings of fire, heat was and is a non-issue for heavy barrel bolt action rifles in my mind.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fluting the barrel is a great option. It adds rigidity and it is 100% proven to help cool a barrel faster vs non-fluted barrels. Ideally, I like to shoot the heaviest non-tapered barrel I can find, fluted, with a muzzle brake. Allows for consistency, and less effect of barrel whip. But then again, it depends on your needs. These are my preferences based on FACTS. </div></div>
based on facts, how does fluting a barrel add rigidity? the barrel has less mass so it is also going to heat up faster. is the "cooling off faster" going to outweigh the heating up faster? i have shot some long strings of fire during matches and never once did i say, damn, i wish i had a fluted barrel so it would cool off faster. even on long strings of fire, heat was and is a non-issue for heavy barrel bolt action rifles in my mind.</div></div>
This is one of the big controversies... heating up faster vs cooling faster. Yes, less mass equals heating up faster. But, the issue is reducing the heat and thus the flexibility of the barrel. Eventually a rifle barrel after a day at the range will be scorching... unless you're the worlds most patient shooter. So, if it's going to get their eventually, you might as well be able to cool it quicker. I will agree with you that on the heavy barrels it's not as much of an issue but it still exists.
As far as the rigidity is concerned...
Imagine a piece of sheet metal, any size. Let's just say 1/16" x 2'x 2' for argument's sake. Now... try to fold that in half. It would bend with no problem. Now... create a series of folds (like a hand fan) going one direction so it looks like VVVVVVVVV. Try folding that same piece of sheet metal across those folds and it will be damn near impossible without the use of a hydraulic press. The same principal applies to the fluted barrels. They are less prone to barrel whip because they are stiffer and less able to bend.
The hotter the barrel the more flexible it is. So, the more it heats up the less consistent you can be. If you can minimize heat by cooling it faster... AND reduce flexibility... why wouldn't you?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fluting the barrel is a great option. It adds rigidity and it is 100% proven to help cool a barrel faster vs non-fluted barrels. Ideally, I like to shoot the heaviest non-tapered barrel I can find, fluted, with a muzzle brake. Allows for consistency, and less effect of barrel whip. But then again, it depends on your needs. These are my preferences based on FACTS. </div></div>
based on facts, how does fluting a barrel add rigidity? the barrel has less mass so it is also going to heat up faster. is the "cooling off faster" going to outweigh the heating up faster? i have shot some long strings of fire during matches and never once did i say, damn, i wish i had a fluted barrel so it would cool off faster. even on long strings of fire, heat was and is a non-issue for heavy barrel bolt action rifles in my mind.</div></div>
This is one of the big controversies... heating up faster vs cooling faster. Yes, less mass equals heating up faster. But, the issue is reducing the heat and thus the flexibility of the barrel. Eventually a rifle barrel after a day at the range will be scorching... unless you're the worlds most patient shooter. So, if it's going to get their eventually, you might as well be able to cool it quicker. I will agree with you that on the heavy barrels it's not as much of an issue but it still exists.
As far as the rigidity is concerned...
Imagine a piece of sheet metal, any size. Let's just say 1/16" x 2'x 2' for argument's sake. Now... try to fold that in half. It would bend with no problem. Now... create a series of folds (like a hand fan) going one direction so it looks like VVVVVVVVV. Try folding that same piece of sheet metal across those folds and it will be damn near impossible without the use of a hydraulic press. The same principal applies to the fluted barrels. They are less prone to barrel whip because they are stiffer and less able to bend.
The hotter the barrel the more flexible it is. So, the more it heats up the less consistent you can be. If you can minimize heat by cooling it faster... AND reduce flexibility... why wouldn't you?
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
Really depends on the manufacturer of the barrel and brand of the rifle. But unless you go with the top of the line barrel, you can easily have ordered that simply has to be tightened up to your action for 300-350 tops. Again, NOT TOP OF THE LINE. But certainly better than factory.
Really depends on the manufacturer of the barrel and brand of the rifle. But unless you go with the top of the line barrel, you can easily have ordered that simply has to be tightened up to your action for 300-350 tops. Again, NOT TOP OF THE LINE. But certainly better than factory.
G
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Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Imagine a piece of sheet metal, any size. Let's just say 1/16" x 2'x 2' for argument's sake. Now... try to fold that in half. It would bend with no problem. Now... create a series of folds (like a hand fan) going one direction so it looks like VVVVVVVVV. Try folding that same piece of sheet metal across those folds and it will be damn near impossible without the use of a hydraulic press. The same principal applies to the fluted barrels. They are less prone to barrel whip because they are stiffer and less able to bend.
</div></div>
Are you freaking kidding me?
A fluted barrel is not stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same diameter. It <span style="font-weight: bold">is</span> stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same weight.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Imagine a piece of sheet metal, any size. Let's just say 1/16" x 2'x 2' for argument's sake. Now... try to fold that in half. It would bend with no problem. Now... create a series of folds (like a hand fan) going one direction so it looks like VVVVVVVVV. Try folding that same piece of sheet metal across those folds and it will be damn near impossible without the use of a hydraulic press. The same principal applies to the fluted barrels. They are less prone to barrel whip because they are stiffer and less able to bend.
</div></div>
Are you freaking kidding me?
A fluted barrel is not stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same diameter. It <span style="font-weight: bold">is</span> stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same weight.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fluting the barrel is a great option. It adds rigidity and it is 100% proven to help cool a barrel faster vs non-fluted barrels. Ideally, I like to shoot the heaviest non-tapered barrel I can find, fluted, with a muzzle brake. Allows for consistency, and less effect of barrel whip. But then again, it depends on your needs. These are my preferences based on FACTS. </div></div>
based on facts, how does fluting a barrel add rigidity? the barrel has less mass so it is also going to heat up faster. is the "cooling off faster" going to outweigh the heating up faster? i have shot some long strings of fire during matches and never once did i say, damn, i wish i had a fluted barrel so it would cool off faster. even on long strings of fire, heat was and is a non-issue for heavy barrel bolt action rifles in my mind.</div></div>
This is one of the big controversies... heating up faster vs cooling faster. Yes, less mass equals heating up faster. But, the issue is reducing the heat and thus the flexibility of the barrel. Eventually a rifle barrel after a day at the range will be scorching... unless you're the worlds most patient shooter. So, if it's going to get their eventually, you might as well be able to cool it quicker. I will agree with you that on the heavy barrels it's not as much of an issue but it still exists.
As far as the rigidity is concerned...
Imagine a piece of sheet metal, any size. Let's just say 1/16" x 2'x 2' for argument's sake. Now... try to fold that in half. It would bend with no problem. Now... create a series of folds (like a hand fan) going one direction so it looks like VVVVVVVVV. Try folding that same piece of sheet metal across those folds and it will be damn near impossible without the use of a hydraulic press. The same principal applies to the fluted barrels. They are less prone to barrel whip because they are stiffer and less able to bend.
The hotter the barrel the more flexible it is. So, the more it heats up the less consistent you can be. If you can minimize heat by cooling it faster... AND reduce flexibility... why wouldn't you? </div></div>
as far as heating up or cooling off a barrel, i'd like to hear just one person claim that they would have won the match if they had had a fluted barrel. i suspect i may be here a while waiting.
your comparison of sheetmetal with cross brakes in it to a fluted barrel is flawed. you did not remove material from the sheet metal. take you sheet metal and instead of putting cross brakes in it, cut slots in it. did you make it stiffer when you try to bend across it? the answer is a definite no. in my opinion, this is a more realistic comparison to fluting a barrel.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Fluting the barrel is a great option. It adds rigidity and it is 100% proven to help cool a barrel faster vs non-fluted barrels. Ideally, I like to shoot the heaviest non-tapered barrel I can find, fluted, with a muzzle brake. Allows for consistency, and less effect of barrel whip. But then again, it depends on your needs. These are my preferences based on FACTS. </div></div>
based on facts, how does fluting a barrel add rigidity? the barrel has less mass so it is also going to heat up faster. is the "cooling off faster" going to outweigh the heating up faster? i have shot some long strings of fire during matches and never once did i say, damn, i wish i had a fluted barrel so it would cool off faster. even on long strings of fire, heat was and is a non-issue for heavy barrel bolt action rifles in my mind.</div></div>
This is one of the big controversies... heating up faster vs cooling faster. Yes, less mass equals heating up faster. But, the issue is reducing the heat and thus the flexibility of the barrel. Eventually a rifle barrel after a day at the range will be scorching... unless you're the worlds most patient shooter. So, if it's going to get their eventually, you might as well be able to cool it quicker. I will agree with you that on the heavy barrels it's not as much of an issue but it still exists.
As far as the rigidity is concerned...
Imagine a piece of sheet metal, any size. Let's just say 1/16" x 2'x 2' for argument's sake. Now... try to fold that in half. It would bend with no problem. Now... create a series of folds (like a hand fan) going one direction so it looks like VVVVVVVVV. Try folding that same piece of sheet metal across those folds and it will be damn near impossible without the use of a hydraulic press. The same principal applies to the fluted barrels. They are less prone to barrel whip because they are stiffer and less able to bend.
The hotter the barrel the more flexible it is. So, the more it heats up the less consistent you can be. If you can minimize heat by cooling it faster... AND reduce flexibility... why wouldn't you? </div></div>
as far as heating up or cooling off a barrel, i'd like to hear just one person claim that they would have won the match if they had had a fluted barrel. i suspect i may be here a while waiting.
your comparison of sheetmetal with cross brakes in it to a fluted barrel is flawed. you did not remove material from the sheet metal. take you sheet metal and instead of putting cross brakes in it, cut slots in it. did you make it stiffer when you try to bend across it? the answer is a definite no. in my opinion, this is a more realistic comparison to fluting a barrel.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847
Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult. And yeah you're probably right, no one has ever said "I probably would have won that match if I had a fluted barrel." But no one has ever said "I would have won that match if this barrel wasn't fluted" either. But, looking strictly at the theory behind the barrel fluting, it is a benefit, regardless of how minimal. Its pros certainly outweigh the cons.
Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult. And yeah you're probably right, no one has ever said "I probably would have won that match if I had a fluted barrel." But no one has ever said "I would have won that match if this barrel wasn't fluted" either. But, looking strictly at the theory behind the barrel fluting, it is a benefit, regardless of how minimal. Its pros certainly outweigh the cons.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jamison</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Imagine a piece of sheet metal, any size. Let's just say 1/16" x 2'x 2' for argument's sake. Now... try to fold that in half. It would bend with no problem. Now... create a series of folds (like a hand fan) going one direction so it looks like VVVVVVVVV. Try folding that same piece of sheet metal across those folds and it will be damn near impossible without the use of a hydraulic press. The same principal applies to the fluted barrels. They are less prone to barrel whip because they are stiffer and less able to bend.
</div></div>
Within reason
Are you freaking kidding me?
A fluted barrel is not stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same diameter. It <span style="font-weight: bold">is</span> stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same weight. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jamison</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Imagine a piece of sheet metal, any size. Let's just say 1/16" x 2'x 2' for argument's sake. Now... try to fold that in half. It would bend with no problem. Now... create a series of folds (like a hand fan) going one direction so it looks like VVVVVVVVV. Try folding that same piece of sheet metal across those folds and it will be damn near impossible without the use of a hydraulic press. The same principal applies to the fluted barrels. They are less prone to barrel whip because they are stiffer and less able to bend.
</div></div>
Within reason
Are you freaking kidding me?
A fluted barrel is not stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same diameter. It <span style="font-weight: bold">is</span> stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same weight. </div></div>
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847</div></div>
I have studied enough ballistics and metallurgy to completely disagree. There is published data that proves otherwise as opposed to some random Joe Shmo on a forum using a "program" at work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847</div></div>
I have studied enough ballistics and metallurgy to completely disagree. There is published data that proves otherwise as opposed to some random Joe Shmo on a forum using a "program" at work.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847</div></div>
I have studied enough ballistics and metallurgy to completely disagree. There is published data that proves otherwise as opposed to some random Joe Shmo on a forum using a "program" at work. </div></div>
Clearly, you're right. I apologize for trying to convince you otherwise.
ETA: At least Joe Shmo (engineer) had the courtesy to fill out his profile
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847</div></div>
I have studied enough ballistics and metallurgy to completely disagree. There is published data that proves otherwise as opposed to some random Joe Shmo on a forum using a "program" at work. </div></div>
Clearly, you're right. I apologize for trying to convince you otherwise.
ETA: At least Joe Shmo (engineer) had the courtesy to fill out his profile
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
I love how people become experts on a subject because they read a few forum posts. As I stated in my first response these are my preferences based on legit research on published data. It doesn't have to be your rifle. Just simply what I suggest. That's the one thing I hate about forums, people don't know how to have a conversation. One of the world's best snipers was recently KIA. One of his counterparts asked why he never participated in debates about guns and accuracy. His response was "until they can outshoot me there's no point." Words of wisdom... if someone is a better shooter, listen up. If they aren't tell 'em to screw off.
These are my opinions. I've found them to be true for the rifles I shoot. I base my knowledge on published data and research from experts in ballistics and metallurgy. Take it for what it is. At the end of the day, you're a free man, for all I care you can shoot a glass barrel. It's your ass not mine
I love how people become experts on a subject because they read a few forum posts. As I stated in my first response these are my preferences based on legit research on published data. It doesn't have to be your rifle. Just simply what I suggest. That's the one thing I hate about forums, people don't know how to have a conversation. One of the world's best snipers was recently KIA. One of his counterparts asked why he never participated in debates about guns and accuracy. His response was "until they can outshoot me there's no point." Words of wisdom... if someone is a better shooter, listen up. If they aren't tell 'em to screw off.
These are my opinions. I've found them to be true for the rifles I shoot. I base my knowledge on published data and research from experts in ballistics and metallurgy. Take it for what it is. At the end of the day, you're a free man, for all I care you can shoot a glass barrel. It's your ass not mine
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult.
</div></div>
your logic is still flawed. you hare removed material from the section thus making it less rigid. it is not like sheet metal where you can remove metal such as "go fast holes" and dimple them to effectively make the section thicker.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And yeah you're probably right, no one has ever said "I probably would have won that match if I had a fluted barrel." But no one has ever said "I would have won that match if this barrel wasn't fluted" either. But, looking strictly at the theory behind the barrel fluting, it is a benefit, regardless of how minimal. Its pros certainly outweigh the cons.
</div></div>
you are right. the difference between a fluted barrel and non-fluted barrel is not going to make the difference between winning a match or making the shot. the guy with the non-fluted barrel got to the same point much cheaper though. as far as the pros of a fluted barrel certainly outweighing the cons, that's debatable. assuming you are buying a new barrel, you are not really gaining much, if any performance for your money. if your main concern is looks, then i guess you are getting your moneys worth.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult.
</div></div>
your logic is still flawed. you hare removed material from the section thus making it less rigid. it is not like sheet metal where you can remove metal such as "go fast holes" and dimple them to effectively make the section thicker.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And yeah you're probably right, no one has ever said "I probably would have won that match if I had a fluted barrel." But no one has ever said "I would have won that match if this barrel wasn't fluted" either. But, looking strictly at the theory behind the barrel fluting, it is a benefit, regardless of how minimal. Its pros certainly outweigh the cons.
</div></div>
you are right. the difference between a fluted barrel and non-fluted barrel is not going to make the difference between winning a match or making the shot. the guy with the non-fluted barrel got to the same point much cheaper though. as far as the pros of a fluted barrel certainly outweighing the cons, that's debatable. assuming you are buying a new barrel, you are not really gaining much, if any performance for your money. if your main concern is looks, then i guess you are getting your moneys worth.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult.
</div></div>
your logic is still flawed. you hare removed material from the section thus making it less rigid. it is not like sheet metal where you can remove metal such as "go fast holes" and dimple them to effectively make the section thicker.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And yeah you're probably right, no one has ever said "I probably would have won that match if I had a fluted barrel." But no one has ever said "I would have won that match if this barrel wasn't fluted" either. But, looking strictly at the theory behind the barrel fluting, it is a benefit, regardless of how minimal. Its pros certainly outweigh the cons.
</div></div>
you are right. the difference between a fluted barrel and non-fluted barrel is not going to make the difference between winning a match or making the shot. the guy with the non-fluted barrel got to the same point much cheaper though. as far as the pros of a fluted barrel certainly outweighing the cons, that's debatable. assuming you are buying a new barrel, you are not really gaining much, if any performance for your money. if your main concern is looks, then i guess you are getting your moneys worth.</div></div>
Personal opinion... if you're going to be shelling out the money on a new barrel... might as well be getting all the bells and whistles. My 2cents
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult.
</div></div>
your logic is still flawed. you hare removed material from the section thus making it less rigid. it is not like sheet metal where you can remove metal such as "go fast holes" and dimple them to effectively make the section thicker.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And yeah you're probably right, no one has ever said "I probably would have won that match if I had a fluted barrel." But no one has ever said "I would have won that match if this barrel wasn't fluted" either. But, looking strictly at the theory behind the barrel fluting, it is a benefit, regardless of how minimal. Its pros certainly outweigh the cons.
</div></div>
you are right. the difference between a fluted barrel and non-fluted barrel is not going to make the difference between winning a match or making the shot. the guy with the non-fluted barrel got to the same point much cheaper though. as far as the pros of a fluted barrel certainly outweighing the cons, that's debatable. assuming you are buying a new barrel, you are not really gaining much, if any performance for your money. if your main concern is looks, then i guess you are getting your moneys worth.</div></div>
Personal opinion... if you're going to be shelling out the money on a new barrel... might as well be getting all the bells and whistles. My 2cents
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how people become experts on a subject because they read a few forum posts. As I stated in my first response these are my preferences based on legit research on published data. It doesn't have to be your rifle. Just simply what I suggest. That's the one thing I hate about forums, people don't know how to have a conversation. One of the world's best snipers was recently KIA. One of his counterparts asked why he never participated in debates about guns and accuracy. His response was "until they can outshoot me there's no point." Words of wisdom... if someone is a better shooter, listen up. If they aren't tell 'em to screw off.
These are my opinions. I've found them to be true for the rifles I shoot. I base my knowledge on published data and research from experts in ballistics and metallurgy. Take it for what it is. At the end of the day, you're a free man, for all I care you can shoot a glass barrel. It's your ass not mine </div></div>
be careful about stating this as FACTS. you should probably re-read you published data and research to make sure you really read what you think you did. you may be surprised what you find.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how people become experts on a subject because they read a few forum posts. As I stated in my first response these are my preferences based on legit research on published data. It doesn't have to be your rifle. Just simply what I suggest. That's the one thing I hate about forums, people don't know how to have a conversation. One of the world's best snipers was recently KIA. One of his counterparts asked why he never participated in debates about guns and accuracy. His response was "until they can outshoot me there's no point." Words of wisdom... if someone is a better shooter, listen up. If they aren't tell 'em to screw off.
These are my opinions. I've found them to be true for the rifles I shoot. I base my knowledge on published data and research from experts in ballistics and metallurgy. Take it for what it is. At the end of the day, you're a free man, for all I care you can shoot a glass barrel. It's your ass not mine </div></div>
be careful about stating this as FACTS. you should probably re-read you published data and research to make sure you really read what you think you did. you may be surprised what you find.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how people become experts on a subject because they read a few forum posts. As I stated in my first response these are my preferences based on legit research on published data. It doesn't have to be your rifle. Just simply what I suggest. That's the one thing I hate about forums, people don't know how to have a conversation. One of the world's best snipers was recently KIA. One of his counterparts asked why he never participated in debates about guns and accuracy. His response was "until they can outshoot me there's no point." Words of wisdom... if someone is a better shooter, listen up. If they aren't tell 'em to screw off.
These are my opinions. I've found them to be true for the rifles I shoot. I base my knowledge on published data and research from experts in ballistics and metallurgy. Take it for what it is. At the end of the day, you're a free man, for all I care you can shoot a glass barrel. It's your ass not mine </div></div>
be careful about stating this as FACTS. you should probably re-read you published data and research to make sure you really read what you think you did. you may be surprised what you find.</div></div>
Unfortunately I have to read this stuff every day. It's pretty ingrained in my brain. Everything I did post is a fact. TO what degree is up for some debate. Some argue that fluting helps accuracy by 20%. I doubt that. HIGHLY doubt that. But... if done properly then it truly can make a positive difference. Even if minimal. I'd take every little bit I could get.
Like I said... these are my opinions. I appreciate all your input. I just respectfully disagree. And my outburst post was in general... not specifically at you. I just think that SnipersHide is turning into "youre an idiot.. no YOURE an idiot." As opposed to intellectual conversation about improving accuracy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how people become experts on a subject because they read a few forum posts. As I stated in my first response these are my preferences based on legit research on published data. It doesn't have to be your rifle. Just simply what I suggest. That's the one thing I hate about forums, people don't know how to have a conversation. One of the world's best snipers was recently KIA. One of his counterparts asked why he never participated in debates about guns and accuracy. His response was "until they can outshoot me there's no point." Words of wisdom... if someone is a better shooter, listen up. If they aren't tell 'em to screw off.
These are my opinions. I've found them to be true for the rifles I shoot. I base my knowledge on published data and research from experts in ballistics and metallurgy. Take it for what it is. At the end of the day, you're a free man, for all I care you can shoot a glass barrel. It's your ass not mine </div></div>
be careful about stating this as FACTS. you should probably re-read you published data and research to make sure you really read what you think you did. you may be surprised what you find.</div></div>
Unfortunately I have to read this stuff every day. It's pretty ingrained in my brain. Everything I did post is a fact. TO what degree is up for some debate. Some argue that fluting helps accuracy by 20%. I doubt that. HIGHLY doubt that. But... if done properly then it truly can make a positive difference. Even if minimal. I'd take every little bit I could get.
Like I said... these are my opinions. I appreciate all your input. I just respectfully disagree. And my outburst post was in general... not specifically at you. I just think that SnipersHide is turning into "youre an idiot.. no YOURE an idiot." As opposed to intellectual conversation about improving accuracy.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847</div></div>
I have studied enough ballistics and metallurgy to completely disagree. There is published data that proves otherwise as opposed to some random Joe Shmo on a forum using a "program" at work. </div></div>
can you please post up links to your published ballistics and metallurgy study material that says that fluting a barrel makes it stiffer?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847</div></div>
I have studied enough ballistics and metallurgy to completely disagree. There is published data that proves otherwise as opposed to some random Joe Shmo on a forum using a "program" at work. </div></div>
can you please post up links to your published ballistics and metallurgy study material that says that fluting a barrel makes it stiffer?
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847</div></div>
I have studied enough ballistics and metallurgy to completely disagree. There is published data that proves otherwise as opposed to some random Joe Shmo on a forum using a "program" at work. </div></div>
can you please post up links to your published ballistics and metallurgy study material that says that fluting a barrel makes it stiffer?</div></div>
PM me as a reminder. I'm actually out of town, so my books aren't with me. But one off the top of my head is "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" by Rinker? I'll Check on the last name of the publisher. Excellent read for an introduction into metal and ballistics.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you missed this thread.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436847#Post2436847</div></div>
I have studied enough ballistics and metallurgy to completely disagree. There is published data that proves otherwise as opposed to some random Joe Shmo on a forum using a "program" at work. </div></div>
can you please post up links to your published ballistics and metallurgy study material that says that fluting a barrel makes it stiffer?</div></div>
PM me as a reminder. I'm actually out of town, so my books aren't with me. But one off the top of my head is "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" by Rinker? I'll Check on the last name of the publisher. Excellent read for an introduction into metal and ballistics.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
Your sheetmetal example may possibly indicate you missunderstood whatever you read; where ever you read it! If you remove material; it becomes weaker!
Your sheetmetal example may possibly indicate you missunderstood whatever you read; where ever you read it! If you remove material; it becomes weaker!
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it possible to flute a barrell which is already on a rifle? I guess a builder could take the barrel off, flute it and put it back on? I have a medium heavy barreled custom gun which I would like to lighten up. </div></div>
oh yeah, to answer the op's question, it is <span style="font-style: italic">possible</span> to do with the receiver attached but it would not be the best setup. to minimize deflection when machining, you want to hold the work as close as you can to where you are cutting. it would be best to remove the receiver and hold the barrel directly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it possible to flute a barrell which is already on a rifle? I guess a builder could take the barrel off, flute it and put it back on? I have a medium heavy barreled custom gun which I would like to lighten up. </div></div>
oh yeah, to answer the op's question, it is <span style="font-style: italic">possible</span> to do with the receiver attached but it would not be the best setup. to minimize deflection when machining, you want to hold the work as close as you can to where you are cutting. it would be best to remove the receiver and hold the barrel directly.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it possible to flute a barrell which is already on a rifle? I guess a builder could take the barrel off, flute it and put it back on? I have a medium heavy barreled custom gun which I would like to lighten up. </div></div>
oh yeah, to answer the op's question, it is <span style="font-style: italic">possible</span> to do with the receiver attached but it would not be the best setup. to minimize deflection when machining, you want to hold the work as close as you can to where you are cutting. it would be best to remove the receiver and hold the barrel directly.</div></div>
100% agreed
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it possible to flute a barrell which is already on a rifle? I guess a builder could take the barrel off, flute it and put it back on? I have a medium heavy barreled custom gun which I would like to lighten up. </div></div>
oh yeah, to answer the op's question, it is <span style="font-style: italic">possible</span> to do with the receiver attached but it would not be the best setup. to minimize deflection when machining, you want to hold the work as close as you can to where you are cutting. it would be best to remove the receiver and hold the barrel directly.</div></div>
100% agreed
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how people become experts on a subject because they read a few forum posts. </div></div>
hmmmmm?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've found them to be true for the rifles I shoot. <span style="font-weight: bold"> I base my knowledge on published data and research from experts in ballistics and metallurgy.</span> </div></div>
hmmmmm.....so what others read on the net is false or incorrect but what you read wherever is fact and undisputeable???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BidDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just think that SnipersHide is turning into "youre an idiot.. no YOURE an idiot.</div></div>
...and I see by your registration date you have quite the insight into this forum, its members and their knowledge?
OK, I guess what you say then can indeed be taken as fact and undisputeable from your personal experience! Just wanted to make sure I understand that in the future I should NOT believe anything posted on this website unless it is posted by you???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how people become experts on a subject because they read a few forum posts. </div></div>
hmmmmm?????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've found them to be true for the rifles I shoot. <span style="font-weight: bold"> I base my knowledge on published data and research from experts in ballistics and metallurgy.</span> </div></div>
hmmmmm.....so what others read on the net is false or incorrect but what you read wherever is fact and undisputeable???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BidDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just think that SnipersHide is turning into "youre an idiot.. no YOURE an idiot.</div></div>
...and I see by your registration date you have quite the insight into this forum, its members and their knowledge?
OK, I guess what you say then can indeed be taken as fact and undisputeable from your personal experience! Just wanted to make sure I understand that in the future I should NOT believe anything posted on this website unless it is posted by you???
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I would strongly oppose cutting a contour OR shortening the barrel. For many reasons. Medium to Heavy barrels vs contoured barrels are more rigid and thus more consistent shooters. That's not to say that contour barrels are bad, but medium-heavy are better. They take longer to heat up and are less prone to flexing under heat.</div></div>
My statement was strictly on weight, which one removes more weight... For example lets take a 1.25 inch diameter straight taper barrel 22 inches long and cut 6 round flutes 16 inches long in it that are 1/4 wide and an 1/8 inch deep, thats approximatively a total volume of 2.355 cubic inches removed from the barrel, take that same barrel and turn it down to half the depth that the flutes would be to a new OD of 1.125, This would remove roughly a volume of 9.714375 cubic inches. By turning it down only a 1/16 of an inch all the way around your losing 4x the weight you would loose if you fluted the rifle at twice the depth. <span style="color: #FF0000">If you turn down the barrel to only remove the same volume of 2.355 cubic inches that you removed if fluted you would only have to take off 27 thousandths of an inch</span>. And how much weaker is that barrel now? not much at all. But yes they are BOTH weaker because you removed material from both Barrels, because thats what happens when you remove material. definitely not make it stiffer.
Again... My statement was strictly on weight loss not what is the better choice for each specific shooter, heat loss, or stiffness of a barrel. I am not a mathematician but I can show my work if anyone doubts my approximate numbers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I would strongly oppose cutting a contour OR shortening the barrel. For many reasons. Medium to Heavy barrels vs contoured barrels are more rigid and thus more consistent shooters. That's not to say that contour barrels are bad, but medium-heavy are better. They take longer to heat up and are less prone to flexing under heat.</div></div>
My statement was strictly on weight, which one removes more weight... For example lets take a 1.25 inch diameter straight taper barrel 22 inches long and cut 6 round flutes 16 inches long in it that are 1/4 wide and an 1/8 inch deep, thats approximatively a total volume of 2.355 cubic inches removed from the barrel, take that same barrel and turn it down to half the depth that the flutes would be to a new OD of 1.125, This would remove roughly a volume of 9.714375 cubic inches. By turning it down only a 1/16 of an inch all the way around your losing 4x the weight you would loose if you fluted the rifle at twice the depth. <span style="color: #FF0000">If you turn down the barrel to only remove the same volume of 2.355 cubic inches that you removed if fluted you would only have to take off 27 thousandths of an inch</span>. And how much weaker is that barrel now? not much at all. But yes they are BOTH weaker because you removed material from both Barrels, because thats what happens when you remove material. definitely not make it stiffer.
Again... My statement was strictly on weight loss not what is the better choice for each specific shooter, heat loss, or stiffness of a barrel. I am not a mathematician but I can show my work if anyone doubts my approximate numbers
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
LOL, so is it possible to flute a barrel without removing it from the action?
LOL, so is it possible to flute a barrel without removing it from the action?
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
There is no possible way for a milling machine or lathe to increase the stiffness of anything. They can make the piece lighter or look cool but they can't make it heavier or stiffer.
There is no possible way for a milling machine or lathe to increase the stiffness of anything. They can make the piece lighter or look cool but they can't make it heavier or stiffer.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
IMHO, flutes are fluff.
If fluting made your barrel more rigid then why do we not have our peckers fluted?
I don't buy in that it increases surface area and aids in cooling.
It does make the barrel lighter but, unless you go really deep with the flutes, not that much lighter.
It can relieve stress but that should have already been done by the maker.
If you have a barrel that is shooting very well why take a chance of screwing it up by removing, fluting and reinstalling?
If the barrel doesn't shoot that good, well then, why go to the expense and trouble to flute a bad barrel?
Spend that money on something that is meaningful like more ammo, better optics, etc.
IMHO, flutes are fluff.
If fluting made your barrel more rigid then why do we not have our peckers fluted?
I don't buy in that it increases surface area and aids in cooling.
It does make the barrel lighter but, unless you go really deep with the flutes, not that much lighter.
It can relieve stress but that should have already been done by the maker.
If you have a barrel that is shooting very well why take a chance of screwing it up by removing, fluting and reinstalling?
If the barrel doesn't shoot that good, well then, why go to the expense and trouble to flute a bad barrel?
Spend that money on something that is meaningful like more ammo, better optics, etc.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult. </div></div>
Which one is it; a CONCEPT or FACT?
There's a big difference in the two. You are wrong in your concept because you base you information around a flat piece instead of a round piece. There is no flat part of a ROUND barrel except for the ends. As the diameter increases the bending resistance increases, so there is some ligitamcy about the size of the barrel making a difference in stiffness; however, milling slots into the outer diameter of a tube does nothing to make it stiffer.
Try this if you still can't wrap your head around it. Go to your local hardware store and purchase some 1" schedule 40 PVC. Then cut the piece in half and flute one of the halfs. Bend both pieces by hand and see which one has the least deflection. You might be surprised to find that your CONCEPT is not a FACT!
Just because you believe it and as you stated is your opinion, does not make it true! Don't give false information and then state that you read it in a book and so it has to be true!
Buzz, I have a fluted barrel on my newest competition gun and I love it due to the weight and balance. It is also a Tubb contour which is close to a medium Palma, and is a fairly light contour. No issues with accuracy, heating, or cooling as some on here can verify. You can probably shave a pound off the barrel simply by fluting if it is long enough.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult. </div></div>
Which one is it; a CONCEPT or FACT?
There's a big difference in the two. You are wrong in your concept because you base you information around a flat piece instead of a round piece. There is no flat part of a ROUND barrel except for the ends. As the diameter increases the bending resistance increases, so there is some ligitamcy about the size of the barrel making a difference in stiffness; however, milling slots into the outer diameter of a tube does nothing to make it stiffer.
Try this if you still can't wrap your head around it. Go to your local hardware store and purchase some 1" schedule 40 PVC. Then cut the piece in half and flute one of the halfs. Bend both pieces by hand and see which one has the least deflection. You might be surprised to find that your CONCEPT is not a FACT!
Just because you believe it and as you stated is your opinion, does not make it true! Don't give false information and then state that you read it in a book and so it has to be true!
Buzz, I have a fluted barrel on my newest competition gun and I love it due to the weight and balance. It is also a Tubb contour which is close to a medium Palma, and is a fairly light contour. No issues with accuracy, heating, or cooling as some on here can verify. You can probably shave a pound off the barrel simply by fluting if it is long enough.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
BigDaddyKane:
I am a mechanical engineer. This EXACT subject is what I studied in college and graduate school.
You are wrong. Fluting a barrel does not make it stiffer (or stronger, which is different). Fluting a barrel makes it less stiff, just not as much less stiff as turning down the barrel to a smaller circular cross-section to achieve the same weight reduction.
Irrelevant analogies and pointing to a book on ballistics will not help your case. If you actually want to learn what happens when you flute a barrel, please buy an introductory strength of materials textbook and read it.
In the meantime, stop spreading misinformation.
Also:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Medium to Heavy barrels vs contoured barrels are more rigid and thus more consistent shooters. That's not to say that contour barrels are bad, but medium-heavy are better.</div></div>
"Contour" or "profile" means the shape and dimensions of a barrel. It doesn't mean a skinny barrel. You might mean "sporter" barrels.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The hotter the barrel the more flexible it is. So, the more it heats up the less consistent you can be. If you can minimize heat by cooling it faster... AND reduce flexibility... why wouldn't you?</div></div>
While this is technically true, the difference in the stiffness of steel at 70 degrees and at 200 degrees is about 3%.
To make a 1" straight profile .308 barrel 3% stiffer, you would have to increase its OD to 1.0074". Not much of a difference.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult. </div></div>
Resistance to bending (stiffness) has NOTHING TO DO with flatness or angles in the metal. Please go read the strength of materials text.
Or at least read the Wikipedia articles on Euler-Bernoulli beam theory and second moment of area.
BigDaddyKane:
I am a mechanical engineer. This EXACT subject is what I studied in college and graduate school.
You are wrong. Fluting a barrel does not make it stiffer (or stronger, which is different). Fluting a barrel makes it less stiff, just not as much less stiff as turning down the barrel to a smaller circular cross-section to achieve the same weight reduction.
Irrelevant analogies and pointing to a book on ballistics will not help your case. If you actually want to learn what happens when you flute a barrel, please buy an introductory strength of materials textbook and read it.
In the meantime, stop spreading misinformation.
Also:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Medium to Heavy barrels vs contoured barrels are more rigid and thus more consistent shooters. That's not to say that contour barrels are bad, but medium-heavy are better.</div></div>
"Contour" or "profile" means the shape and dimensions of a barrel. It doesn't mean a skinny barrel. You might mean "sporter" barrels.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The hotter the barrel the more flexible it is. So, the more it heats up the less consistent you can be. If you can minimize heat by cooling it faster... AND reduce flexibility... why wouldn't you?</div></div>
While this is technically true, the difference in the stiffness of steel at 70 degrees and at 200 degrees is about 3%.
To make a 1" straight profile .308 barrel 3% stiffer, you would have to increase its OD to 1.0074". Not much of a difference.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDaddyKane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok... comparison is flawed. It's the concept that I'm trying to get at. Metal bends easier at the flattest parts. So, by creating different points (like fluting), it creates a different angle that needs to be bent. Which is more difficult. </div></div>
Resistance to bending (stiffness) has NOTHING TO DO with flatness or angles in the metal. Please go read the strength of materials text.
Or at least read the Wikipedia articles on Euler-Bernoulli beam theory and second moment of area.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BigDaddyKane:
If you actually want to learn what happens when you flute a barrel, please buy an introductory strength of materials textbook and read it.
In the meantime, stop spreading misinformation. </div></div>
Come on...get outta here.....you mean you want me to "READ" something and "BELIEVE" it????? You put this crap on 'the net' and want me to "BELIEVE" it???? yer shittin right?
Besides you been on SH too long and are not credible,and.....and.....oh, you haven't told me how smart you are and how ignorant and illinformed I am which is required posting on SH!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BigDaddyKane:
If you actually want to learn what happens when you flute a barrel, please buy an introductory strength of materials textbook and read it.
In the meantime, stop spreading misinformation. </div></div>
Come on...get outta here.....you mean you want me to "READ" something and "BELIEVE" it????? You put this crap on 'the net' and want me to "BELIEVE" it???? yer shittin right?
Besides you been on SH too long and are not credible,and.....and.....oh, you haven't told me how smart you are and how ignorant and illinformed I am which is required posting on SH!!!!
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
This topic always seems to come up. The basics:
Fluting an existing barrel will make it less stiff, less heavy, and less strong. It will also change the frequency at which the barrel vibrates.
These facts are not open to interpretation. They are derived from basic engineering principals that are taught in every school from podunk community college all the way to MIT. Trust me. If you think otherwise, you are arguing with Isaac Newton himself.
Incidentally, the confusion comes from that little qualifier, "of the same weight". As in, "A fluted barrel is stiffer than a nonfluted barrel *of the same weight*".
But that is not what interests me. What interests me is what these effects have on accuracy. Is stiffer always better? Does it matter?
I have more detailed thoughts on this here (it's a bit long):
Fluted Barrels
The bottom line is that stiffness is a red herring. What matters is what that stiffness change does to the barrel's vibrational characteristics, which is a horrendously complex thing. It gets pretty academic pretty quickly. Chalk this one up to splitting hairs.
This topic always seems to come up. The basics:
Fluting an existing barrel will make it less stiff, less heavy, and less strong. It will also change the frequency at which the barrel vibrates.
These facts are not open to interpretation. They are derived from basic engineering principals that are taught in every school from podunk community college all the way to MIT. Trust me. If you think otherwise, you are arguing with Isaac Newton himself.
Incidentally, the confusion comes from that little qualifier, "of the same weight". As in, "A fluted barrel is stiffer than a nonfluted barrel *of the same weight*".
But that is not what interests me. What interests me is what these effects have on accuracy. Is stiffer always better? Does it matter?
I have more detailed thoughts on this here (it's a bit long):
Fluted Barrels
The bottom line is that stiffness is a red herring. What matters is what that stiffness change does to the barrel's vibrational characteristics, which is a horrendously complex thing. It gets pretty academic pretty quickly. Chalk this one up to splitting hairs.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
The stiffness of a barrel is a result of a mass of material resiting the bending action, away from the center of the barrel. Fluting a barrel would remove mass from the exact area you want it, if your trying for stiffness.
A fluted barrel would most likely be stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same weight. That is because the original diameter of the fluted barrel was bigger, putting mass further from the centerline of the barrel, resisting bending action.
In your example of the folded tin, you had a flat sheet, then made the distance from the peaks to the centerline of the sheet much further from the center, if that makes sense. This does make it much stiffer. A better comparison would be to take a 2 inch thick piece of steel, and mill it down to the fan shape. The fan shape would bend much sooner than the solid piece of steel.
to sum it up, you need a heavier barrel, fluted to a lighter weight, to have same weight barrels with the fluted one being stiffer.
The stiffness of a barrel is a result of a mass of material resiting the bending action, away from the center of the barrel. Fluting a barrel would remove mass from the exact area you want it, if your trying for stiffness.
A fluted barrel would most likely be stiffer than a non fluted barrel of the same weight. That is because the original diameter of the fluted barrel was bigger, putting mass further from the centerline of the barrel, resisting bending action.
In your example of the folded tin, you had a flat sheet, then made the distance from the peaks to the centerline of the sheet much further from the center, if that makes sense. This does make it much stiffer. A better comparison would be to take a 2 inch thick piece of steel, and mill it down to the fan shape. The fan shape would bend much sooner than the solid piece of steel.
to sum it up, you need a heavier barrel, fluted to a lighter weight, to have same weight barrels with the fluted one being stiffer.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you think otherwise, you are arguing with Isaac Newton himself.</div></div>
Really, the big names here are Leonhard Euler and Daniel Bernoulli who figured out around 1750 the simplification of this problem we still use today when doing hand calculations (Euler-Bernoulli Beam Theory).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The bottom line is that stiffness is a red herring. What matters is what that stiffness change does to the barrel's vibrational characteristics, which is a horrendously complex thing. It gets pretty academic pretty quickly. Chalk this one up to splitting hairs.</div></div>
While stiffness is not the only concern I don't think it can just be dismissed as unimportant either.
If you assume that the forces (from whatever source) acting on the barrel are not exactly the same for every shot (reasonable assumption) a stiffer barrel will have less variation in deflection during the shot as the forces vary.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you think otherwise, you are arguing with Isaac Newton himself.</div></div>
Really, the big names here are Leonhard Euler and Daniel Bernoulli who figured out around 1750 the simplification of this problem we still use today when doing hand calculations (Euler-Bernoulli Beam Theory).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The bottom line is that stiffness is a red herring. What matters is what that stiffness change does to the barrel's vibrational characteristics, which is a horrendously complex thing. It gets pretty academic pretty quickly. Chalk this one up to splitting hairs.</div></div>
While stiffness is not the only concern I don't think it can just be dismissed as unimportant either.
If you assume that the forces (from whatever source) acting on the barrel are not exactly the same for every shot (reasonable assumption) a stiffer barrel will have less variation in deflection during the shot as the forces vary.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While stiffness is not the only concern I don't think it can just be dismissed as unimportant either.
</div></div>
Don't get me wrong. The dynamic stiffness of a barrel is of utmost importance. And although stiffer seems to generally be better, I won't go as far as to say that there isn't an optimum stiffness for a particular setup. For example, the browning BOSS can be used to tune barrel stiffness either up or down. In both cases, better groups can be achieved. Is that practical for heavy barrel sniper/competition rigs? I don't really know.
And I think it's safe to say that the difference in stiffness due to fluting isn't going to matter, except possibly in benchrest-level competition.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While stiffness is not the only concern I don't think it can just be dismissed as unimportant either.
</div></div>
Don't get me wrong. The dynamic stiffness of a barrel is of utmost importance. And although stiffer seems to generally be better, I won't go as far as to say that there isn't an optimum stiffness for a particular setup. For example, the browning BOSS can be used to tune barrel stiffness either up or down. In both cases, better groups can be achieved. Is that practical for heavy barrel sniper/competition rigs? I don't really know.
And I think it's safe to say that the difference in stiffness due to fluting isn't going to matter, except possibly in benchrest-level competition.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For example, the browning BOSS can be used to tune barrel stiffness either up or down.</div></div>
The Browning BOSS system is basically an adjustable barrel weight. There are two kinds, one is also a muzzle brake.
Moving a weight at the end of the barrel will change the natural frequencies and mode shapes of the barrel. It won't really change the stiffness.
EDIT: I went back and looked at your website, and how you are applying static stiffness and dynamic stiffness. I am used to seeing dynamic stiffness applied to basically steady state oscillatory systems but I guess you could rework it a bit to just be the ratio between some specific load profile (shooting a round) and the maximum amplitude of the response over time.
I don't really like the dynamic stiffness approach in this case because every time you change the load profile the dynamic stiffness changes (different bullet, powder charge, case, seating depth, primer, temperature, etc.), so one dynamic stiffness value only gives you information on that specific case. You could make a change that increased it for one load and decreased it for another.
The basic system parameters apply regardless of load profile.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For example, the browning BOSS can be used to tune barrel stiffness either up or down.</div></div>
The Browning BOSS system is basically an adjustable barrel weight. There are two kinds, one is also a muzzle brake.
Moving a weight at the end of the barrel will change the natural frequencies and mode shapes of the barrel. It won't really change the stiffness.
EDIT: I went back and looked at your website, and how you are applying static stiffness and dynamic stiffness. I am used to seeing dynamic stiffness applied to basically steady state oscillatory systems but I guess you could rework it a bit to just be the ratio between some specific load profile (shooting a round) and the maximum amplitude of the response over time.
I don't really like the dynamic stiffness approach in this case because every time you change the load profile the dynamic stiffness changes (different bullet, powder charge, case, seating depth, primer, temperature, etc.), so one dynamic stiffness value only gives you information on that specific case. You could make a change that increased it for one load and decreased it for another.
The basic system parameters apply regardless of load profile.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
Yep - I have a background in structural dynamics. We often used the term "stiffness" as shorthand to describe the dynamic response of a system. It's not a highly technical term the way I've been using it.
Yep - I have a background in structural dynamics. We often used the term "stiffness" as shorthand to describe the dynamic response of a system. It's not a highly technical term the way I've been using it.
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
omg....all the fucking brain damage.....not a fucking single thought on consistent accuracy, enhancement or degradation.....
so, it now comes to me BOLTRIPPER to throw the BULLSHIT flag....
any you rocket scientist ever talk to someone that fluted an already perfect barrel, ya know one that shot bungholes....be it a cut or button barrel.....HUH////////////////??
it fucks them UP....as in RUINS THE ACCURACY....
ANYONE ever thought of that?????
omg....all the fucking brain damage.....not a fucking single thought on consistent accuracy, enhancement or degradation.....
so, it now comes to me BOLTRIPPER to throw the BULLSHIT flag....
any you rocket scientist ever talk to someone that fluted an already perfect barrel, ya know one that shot bungholes....be it a cut or button barrel.....HUH////////////////??
it fucks them UP....as in RUINS THE ACCURACY....
ANYONE ever thought of that?????
Re: fluting a mounted barrel
http://www.varmintal.com/aflut.htm
halfway down the page is.....
CONCLUSION ON BARREL FLUTING....
*
When comparing two barrels of equal weight, length, and material but one is solid and other is fluted, the fluted barrel will have:
o
A larger diameter
o
Greater stiffness (depending on how the extra diameter/weight is distributed)
o
Vibrate at a higher frequency (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)
o
Less muzzle sag (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)
*
Fluting a solid barrel will:
o
Reduce its weight
o
Reduce its stiffness
o
Increase its natural frequency of vibration
o
Decrease its muzzle sag.
*
Reducing the weight of a barrel by fluting makes a stiffer barrel than reducing the weight by decreasing its diameter.
*
A shorter barrel of the same section, solid or fluted, will sag less and vibrate at a higher frequency.
http://www.varmintal.com/aflut.htm
halfway down the page is.....
CONCLUSION ON BARREL FLUTING....
*
When comparing two barrels of equal weight, length, and material but one is solid and other is fluted, the fluted barrel will have:
o
A larger diameter
o
Greater stiffness (depending on how the extra diameter/weight is distributed)
o
Vibrate at a higher frequency (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)
o
Less muzzle sag (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)
*
Fluting a solid barrel will:
o
Reduce its weight
o
Reduce its stiffness
o
Increase its natural frequency of vibration
o
Decrease its muzzle sag.
*
Reducing the weight of a barrel by fluting makes a stiffer barrel than reducing the weight by decreasing its diameter.
*
A shorter barrel of the same section, solid or fluted, will sag less and vibrate at a higher frequency.
