flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

[joelsa58]

Guy #1 buys a pistol (brand new), a few years go by he sells pistol to guy #2, a few years go by he sells it to guy #3. Guy #3 drives out of state, gets into a predicament and has to fly back. At the airport he declares his pistol (w/no ammo) and askes to purchase a transport case. While waiting for the case, the security calls the local sheriff over. The sheriff runs the serial number on the pistol and because guy #3 was not the original purchaser of the pistol they confiscate the gun. Being that this happen out of state the only salution to getting this pistol back is for gun #1 to either find his original paper work and have it mailed and transfered back to him, or pay 500+ dollars for a plane ticket to go pick it up from the sheriff. So basically the government just descided to steal a firearm for no good reason.

fyi I am not guy #3, as he is a piss pore planner. I have flown with guns numerous times and never had any issues.

Lesson for everyone out there, keep your paper work with you and have a lock box.

Also recently heard it is against the law to fly with more than 1 gun unless you are active duty military.

 

[Lindy]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

I think this story is complete B.S. Any database the gun could be checked against would not show who the original purchaser was, unless it had been reported stolen.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also recently heard it is against the law to fly with more than 1 gun unless you are active duty military.</div></div>

Don't think so. Since we have civilians flying in for classes and matches all the time with both rifles and pistols, I think you need to back that assertion up with a citation, as none of them has ever reported a problem from doing that - and, of course, their firearms are inspected when checking in.

 

[liberty_man]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

I have never had any problem flying and checking in multiple firearms, rifles and pistols. Also I am under the impression that gun owners don't have to provide "paperwork" on a gun. We don't need to have guns registered most places. Am I wrong?

 

[joelsa58]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

You can think its BS if you want, however it most certainly happend. And oh by the way the ATF does keep record of the original purchaser. The gun was never stolen or reported stolen. The sheriff notified the ATF, who then notified the original buyer.

The rumor about more than one gun came from a friend of mine who is active duty military. That is apparently what they told him at the airport. Who knows!

 

[GardDog]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

I do not know of any law enforcement accessible database that gives you the original purchaser's information. Weapons declared or located during a stop are generally checked in NCIC to verify that they are not stolen. The serial number may hit (as different companies may use the same sequence of alpha numeric) but entries for stolen weapons contain multiple identifiers (type, manufacturer, etc.). Nothing about owner, unless the complainant (the one who reported it stolen) is listed.

 

[joelsa58]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Liberty Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never had any problem flying and checking in multiple firearms, rifles and pistols. Also I am under the impression that gun owners don't have to provide "paperwork" on a gun. We don't need to have guns registered most places. Am I wrong? </div></div>

That is exactly the impression I was under. That is why this incident makes me irate!

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think this story is complete B.S. Any database the gun could be checked against would not show who the original purchaser was, unless it had been reported stolen.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also recently heard it is against the law to fly with more than 1 gun unless you are active duty military.</div></div>

Don't think so. Since we have civilians flying in for classes and matches all the time with both rifles and pistols, I think you need to back that assertion up with a citation, as none of them has ever reported a problem from doing that - and, of course, their firearms are inspected when checking in.

</div></div>

Lindy hit it right on the head, how on earth did the TSA folks look up Gun owners? I've flown many times with guns, and have never had a problem except for one time.
I had a similar situation, while out of town on a job in NM, my boss informed me that I suddenly had to leave, on a plane, that was leaving in about 30 minutes. With zero time to prepare, and not having planned on flying anywhere during this trip, I was without a lockable hardcase. I decided that the only best choice I had was to leave my beloved Sig 239 with one of my co-workers who would be driving home that weekend. He came to the airport with minutes to spare, and I left. A couple weeks later, I got a very nasty letter from the TSA, stating that they had found 1 live 9mm round in my checked baggage(no gun in there of course). A cartridge I must have dropped in my haste to get the gun out of my possesion. they also told me how I could have been thrown in jail and many other things.
After this one experience, I do not take a gun anywhere with me that is not inside a lockable hard case. Just in case I have to fly out of there all of a suddenly.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spartan30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Liberty Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never had any problem flying and checking in multiple firearms, rifles and pistols. Also I am under the impression that gun owners don't have to provide "paperwork" on a gun. We don't need to have guns registered most places. Am I wrong? </div></div>

That is exactly the impression I was under. That is why this incident makes me irate! </div></div>

Maybe the gun was originally from one of those commie states that make you register. And that particular states database is available to the TSA?

But even so, if he was not in that state, how would they have known the gun hadn't been legally transferred to another owner?

 

[Phylodog]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

The only time the ATF has info on who the purchaser of a specific firearm is, is when they run a trace on the serial number. When an FFL calls in the 4473 they do not provide the make, model or serial number of the firearm being transferred, only the type (long gun, hand gun, receiver).

 

[christian77]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spartan30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Lesson for everyone out there, keep your paper work with you and have a lock box.

2. Also recently heard it is against the law to fly with more than 1 gun unless you are active duty military...That is apparently what they <span style="font-style: italic">(TSA)</span> told him at the airport.</div></div>1. You are suppose to have a lockable case by law, so that's obviously a good idea...showing up to the airport without one is idiot's delight. Per paperwork on your firearm, less it's an NFA weapon, in which case the airline ticket counter folks whom you declare your firearm to...probably have no idea wtf they would be looking at anyways in terms of Form 5320.20/1/4s...that's just bullshit.

2. When you post something like that, include a source (a better one than <span style="font-style: italic">my friend said</span>)...because again, this is bullshit.

<span style="font-weight: bold">If you want to do something intelligent for yourself when flying with firearms.
Print out THE LAW regarding flying with firearms...and print out your airline's policy as well...you stand a better chance of having to educate a nitwit at the counter than you do hearing some horse shit like, "You need your firearm receipt sir" or "That's too many guns...one per passenger sir"

</span>

 

[Immorteq]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

California had records of every firearm I ever filled a 4473 on and asked me to provide bills of sale for specific firearms I no longer owned. Dunno how or why but there most definitely is a record of who bought what and when, in California. Wouldn't suprise me if it were that way in other states. Dunno what database it's kept on or who has access to it.

 

[UKDslayer]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think this story is complete B.S. Any database the gun could be checked against would not show who the original purchaser was, unless it had been reported stolen.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also recently heard it is against the law to fly with more than 1 gun unless you are active duty military.</div></div>

Don't think so. Since we have civilians flying in for classes and matches all the time with both rifles and pistols, I think you need to back that assertion up with a citation, as none of them has ever reported a problem from doing that - and, of course, their firearms are inspected when checking in.

</div></div>

A couple weeks later, I got a very nasty letter from the TSA, stating that they had found 1 live 9mm round in my checked baggage(no gun in there of course). A cartridge I must have dropped in my haste to get the gun out of my possesion. they also told me how I could have been thrown in jail and many other things.
</div></div>

Did you get a fine for the 9mm round?

Regarding multiple firearms - American Airlines allows a "maximum per case is three rifles/shotguns or five pistols/revolvers, ammunition, shooting mat, noise suppressors, and tools"..."There is no limit on the number of cases allowed" (just be prepared to pay for the extra $$$ for extra check-in/overweight luggage). Also, "ammunition is limited to 11lb or 5kg, and must be either in original boxes OR fiber, metal, wood, or other packages specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammo. Loose ammo or clips will not be accepted."

 

[KYS]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spartan30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can think its BS if you want, however it most certainly happend. And oh by the way the ATF does keep record of the original purchaser. The gun was never stolen or reported stolen. The sheriff notified the ATF, who then notified the original buyer.

The rumor about more than one gun came from a friend of mine who is active duty military. That is apparently what they told him at the airport. Who knows! </div></div>

The ATF does not keep a record of the original purchaser. Only the FFL holder has such a record on paper in the form of the 4473. That would be one of the largest computer databases in the country to store every serial number and every gun owner, not to mention the MULTIPLE entries each person makes.

Your claims of "you can only fly with one firearm" are totally false. I've flown with a pistol, AR15, and precision rifle in a hard case multiple times, with no problems.

If you're going to make these claims, provide proof. Not just hearsay

 

[Phylodog]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Immorteq</div><div class="ubbcode-body">California had records of every firearm I ever filled a 4473 on and asked me to provide bills of sale for specific firearms I no longer owned. Dunno how or why but there most definitely is a record of who bought what and when, in California. Wouldn't suprise me if it were that way in other states. Dunno what database it's kept on or who has access to it. </div></div>

That's California, not BATFE. Big difference.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think this story is complete B.S. Any database the gun could be checked against would not show who the original purchaser was, unless it had been reported stolen.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also recently heard it is against the law to fly with more than 1 gun unless you are active duty military.</div></div>

Don't think so. Since we have civilians flying in for classes and matches all the time with both rifles and pistols, I think you need to back that assertion up with a citation, as none of them has ever reported a problem from doing that - and, of course, their firearms are inspected when checking in.

</div></div>

A couple weeks later, I got a very nasty letter from the TSA, stating that they had found 1 live 9mm round in my checked baggage(no gun in there of course). A cartridge I must have dropped in my haste to get the gun out of my possesion. they also told me how I could have been thrown in jail and many other things.
</div></div>

Did you get a fine for the 9mm round?

Regarding multiple firearms - American Airlines allows a "maximum per case is three rifles/shotguns or five pistols/revolvers, ammunition, shooting mat, noise suppressors, and tools"..."There is no limit on the number of cases allowed" (just be prepared to pay for the extra $$$ for extra check-in/overweight luggage). Also, "ammunition is limited to 11lb or 5kg, and must be either in original boxes OR fiber, metal, wood, or other packages specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammo. Loose ammo or clips will not be accepted." </div></div>

Nope, just the nasty letter.

 

[Lindy]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

There are some states which require reporting of firearm sales to the state, including some which require reporting not only of sales by dealers, but by private individuals. See page 253 and 254 of the following document:

http://www.lcav.org/content/retention_firearm_sales.pdf

In California, it appears that all firearm transfers may only be conducted by a licensed dealer.

How much of that information might be available to TSA is not clear.

But there is no federal database of information contained in 4473s, and in fact the federal goverment must destroy information on approved purchases submitted to the NICS within 24 hours of the response to the dealer.

 

[High Binder]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and in fact the federal goverment must destroy information on approved purchases submitted to the NICS within 24 hours of the response to the dealer.
</div></div>

I'm sure that that is done, right after it's photocopied and filed away in the "future confiscations" folder.

 

[Guest]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spartan30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can think its BS if you want, </div></div>

Thanks. Until evidence to the contrary is provided, that's what I will do.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spartan30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rumor about more than one gun came from a friend of mine who is active duty military. </div></div>

This is why it's referred to as a rumor.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

I fly alot, am platimum. I have flown with a salvaged military actioned rifle that shows no visible serial number. I have flown with multiple rifles in a single case. I have flown with 100's of military types and NONE that the rumor mill has mentioned has ever happened in my presence.

My worst TSA story was over 500 230gr lead bullets for my 45. I bought the bulk slugs for reloading at home and had them packed in my checked baggage. The TSA agent tried to tell me it exceeded the 11 lb limit. I assured her the rule didnt apply to components. She drug an American Airline agent over but I insisted.

Finally a cop in a BOMB SQUAD vest, I shit you not, came over and confirmed component not loaded ammo. Whole time my wife is tugging my sleeve asking me to just let it go.

But I heard from a guy who works with my brother that a friend of his once...

And I believe him!

 

[mgd45]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

I can tell you as an LEO who has tried to trace the ownership of a weapon used in a crime, the ATF was only able to tell me who the original FFL who purchased the firearm from the manufacturer was.....(example: Academy Sports, Macon, Ga. purchased from Remington Arms)

I had to contact the FFL as ask them for the information on the person who purchased it from them.....and of course, once the original owner sells gun person/person....the trail ends. There would be no other way for me to find out who the owner of a gun was by simply running the serial number.

I think your buddy is missing some information in his story to you.....

 

[Immorteq]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are some states which require reporting of firearm sales to the state, including some which require reporting not only of sales by dealers, but by private individuals. See page 253 and 254 of the following document:

http://www.lcav.org/content/retention_firearm_sales.pdf

In California, it appears that all firearm transfers may only be conducted by a licensed dealer.

How much of that information might be available to TSA is not clear.

But there is no federal database of information contained in 4473s, and in fact the federal goverment must destroy information on approved purchases submitted to the NICS within 24 hours of the response to the dealer.
</div></div>

Thanks for the link. Interesting reading.

 

[Lindy]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

You're welcome. And I think that goes beyond "interesting" to scary.

 

[Immorteq]

Re: flying with firearms and what the heck bro...?!

agreed!