For all you neck sizers

[mdesign]

Did your accuracy improve when you neck size vs FL size?

Was talking to the tech group at a reloading company that I respect and they said that neck sizing does not necessarily improve accuracy, depends what the rifle likes.

Not disagreeing as rifles are individuals but it seems that if brass is fire formed to a chamber and then neck size only and re-fired in the same chamber that it should not hurt accuracy.

 

[desertHK]

Re: For all you neck sizers

On theory, it should offer a slight improvement on accuracy, but of course it depends on the nut behind the trigger.

I neck size all of my brass with the exception of the 300 WM.

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: For all you neck sizers

I full length resize 308 and 338LM-both using bushing dies to control neck tension. But in a tactical rifle full length resizing is critical for reliable feeding.

From an accuracy standpoint-you will see differences with the same load in a sized case versus a fireformed case-capacity does vary.

I full length resize 50BMG for my hybrid chamber gun-but my bore-rider bench gun requires neck turned brass and a FUCKING ENOURMOUS bushing die from CH-4D

What ever you do-learn to do it correctly.

 

[sniperdude]

Re: For all you neck sizers

I feel that just neck sizing does improve accuracy a little, I dont f/l size any cases for my bolt guns. I do you use a body die to bump the shoulder a little. All my brass is dedicated for each rifle. it works the brass just a little and I get longer life out of it. If you do use a f/l die , I have heard to polish the sizing button or purchase a polished one as it makes a smoother walled neck inside

 

[bohem]

Re: For all you neck sizers

I did a back to back test with identical loads, identically prepped brass loaded to the same length.

59.5gr of RL 22 under a 208 Amax in Win 30-06 cases

25 rounds of new brass, 25 rounds of 1x fired brass.

All brass was trimmed to common length, flash hole deburred, neck reamed, neck turned to clean up the neck.

The rifle shot the normal 2.8" 5 round average group on a 404y steel target with the 1x fired brass.

The new brass shot 3.4" on average


Some rifles aren't as affected by it, it appears to be a direct correlation to how tight the chamber is. My 7 SAUM with new brass shoots 3 shots into an inch, with 1x fired brass it runs 5 shots in .8" at 100y. It's a factory chambered Rem 7 and the chamber is rather large.

Long answer to a short conclusion. It matters some for my 30-06 that has a very tight chamber (0.001 over min spec), similar tests at shorter distances have shown the same results for my 7 SAUM, 204 Ruger, 6-223 and 30-06 AI

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: For all you neck sizers

"Was talking to the tech group at a reloading company that I respect and they said that neck sizing does not necessarily improve accuracy, depends what the rifle likes."

The tech knows what he's talking about. Nothing's an automatic "do this and get that" in this game,

 

[Lindy]

Re: For all you neck sizers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But in a tactical rifle full length resizing is critical for reliable feeding.</div></div>

I have seen many people at tactical matches trying to use a bolt handle to set the shoulder back. It rarely worked out well for them.

David Tubb full-length resizes. He believes that it increases the accuracy of his rounds. It seems to work pretty well for him.

 

[mdesign]

Re: For all you neck sizers

Thanks for the comments...

I need reliable feeding, seen guys try to cram a round into the chamber with the bolt and performance usually suffers. Lots of other things go into accuracy beside case sizing just was wondering what some of you had experienced.

As part of my winter annealing project, I have been testing the effects of sizing on brass and was surprised how much the shoulder area dia is squeezed in during the sizing process. And how much variation there is between two different brand of dies I have for the same caliber, a lot.

When I set up the die .070 short of setting back the shoulder, it still squeezes the shoulder dia enough to make the head space of the cartridge increase by .004-.005 and the case will not chamber. Only 3/4 of the neck is being sized and the runout is less than .001. Sort of got me to thinking about neck sizing only....

 

[Chanonry]

Re: For all you neck sizers

Like you I spoke to a reloading company. I wanted to find out what the top shooters did and thought they would be tuned into this.

Their view was that most bump the shoulder a bit and then necksize. That sounded good to me as it meant i could get reliable loading plus accurate rounds.

I measured the runout on resulting cases and I do get less runout with a bump on the shoulder rather than only neck sizing. To be honest I am not sure why.

 

[Country]

Re: For all you neck sizers

This is a generic , one statement covers all situations type answer.
Some guns do prefer full length or body sizing also.
Howeve on average if your gun has a good straight chamber it will shoot better with fireformed cases . To preserve the fireformed fit you have to do either just neck sizing or in addition minimul body sizing. As soon as you use full length sizing with a standard type die you will loose that fireformed fit .
Talking to techs at companies is like talking to politicians, thay are choosing their words so carefully because they are worried about getting sued or voted out. The result is you only get generic general statements not specific answers in most cases.
You do what your gun likes but that does not mean your gun is the norm.

 

[Country]

Re: For all you neck sizers

The less run out measured is most likely associated with the case run out not the bullet seating run out alone. It all shows up at the end of the round.
The body die may have just straightened the case a bit.
You got it right , the whole idea of body dies is to get the case back in the chamber reliably without over sizing it.

 

[mj2evans]

Re: For all you neck sizers

I can't see how a generous factory chamber is going to know the difference in FL vs. neck size for accuracy. Brass should last a little longer neck sizing (less cold working brass)but again a factory chamber is usually on the plus side of the scale (more cold working brass). Runout may or may not be better with the bushing (honestly I think die set up has something to do with this too, not just FL vs. neck).

 

[DRAM40A1]

Re: For all you neck sizers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But in a tactical rifle full length resizing is critical for reliable feeding.</div></div>

I have seen many people at tactical matches trying to use a bolt handle to set the shoulder back. It rarely worked out well for them.

David Tubb full-length resizes. He believes that it increases the accuracy of his rounds. It seems to work pretty well for him. </div></div>

I'd love to see them do that on the trailer at RO while the mover is going! I am a firm beleiver in FL, as my rifle and dies came from David Tubb!!!LOL. Bump atleast .003 and you're GTG.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: For all you neck sizers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did your accuracy improve when you neck size vs FL size? </div></div>

Neck sizing is used to preserve brass life at a very miniscule loss of accuracy. That is correct, the accuracy may actually go down (a triffle), but brass life can go up as much as 5X.

Now what kind of accuracy loss are we looking at. Take my rifle. My very well processed handloads shoot just a tad better than FGMM 168. I generally get one 5-shot group in the 0.3s, two 5-shot groups in the 0.4-0.5s and one 5-shot group in the 0.6s per box of 20. If I were to FL size everything all the time with the same well developed recipie and other procedures, I might average 0.05" tighter.

To me, 3X-5X brass life is worth the 0.05" accuracy loss. To you it might be different. Either way, the accuracy is still stellar, and well inside the needs of tactical situations. For benchrest shooting, that 0.05" could be the ticket from down lader to top-5. So, it depends on your accuracy needs.

 

[jrob300]

Re: For all you neck sizers

Has nothing to do with accuracy for me, and everything to do with case life. I shoot a 300WM and neck size with a shoulder bump every 3-4 firings with a Redding body die. I have some Nosler brass that must have over 15 firings on it and is still going.

When I FL sized every time, my brass lasted 5-6 firings.

John

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: For all you neck sizers

"was surprised how much the shoulder area dia is squeezed in during the sizing process. And how much variation there is between two different brand of dies I have for the same caliber, a lot."

Measure the output of some more dies,you will find there's as much variation between dies of the same maker as between makers.

Most cases die by splits, neck or body. Neck sizing reduces the splitting in the body but not the neck. If we neck size and don't neck anneal, average case life won't change very much.

 

[JRWALLSIII]

Re: For all you neck sizers

Most fl size

I have neck sized for quite a few cartridges and have always had excellent results.

Whatever suits your needs, can't go wrong with either.

 

[dpreston]

Re: For all you neck sizers

no accuracy improvements. I only do it to make the brass last longer. I bump em back every 3 or 4 firings. Not shooting hot loads though.

 

[JRose]

Re: For all you neck sizers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

David Tubb full-length resizes. He believes that it increases the accuracy of his rounds. It seems to work pretty well for him. </div></div>

He also uses a Prometheus....

 

[Lindy]

Re: For all you neck sizers

He does - and that also works pretty well for him.

I think everyone should own a Prometheus. When does your's arrive?

 

["Partridge"]

Re: For all you neck sizers

i used to fl,now i neck size.as far as reliability.i have not had any issues .it is just somthing that you need to moniter.i should make note that these are bolt guns.the ar gets full lenth.

 

[mdmp5]

Re: For all you neck sizers

It depends on how much you are sizing with a FL die. It you are only bumping .001-.002 each time, that is not a lot of brass work at all. If you are neck sizing only, eventually you are gonna have to bump the shoulder a greater distance, so it pretty much evens out. Doc wrote a great post on here about FL sizing opposed to neck sizing and brought up a great point. If you neck size a case, fire it and then do it again, the case volume is continually expanding after each firing. This can drop the consistency of the pressure in the case, and lead to progressively lower velocity. I don't know how this adds up quantitatively, but his theory is logically sound. I FL size with a bushing die.

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: For all you neck sizers

The current issue of <span style="font-style: italic">RifleShooter</span> magazine has an article by Glen Zediker (he actually broke down and wrote something in editable English) on case sizing. It's a pretty thorough article and discusses neck and FL sizing.

 

[JRose]

Re: For all you neck sizers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He does - and that also works pretty well for him.

I think everyone should own a Prometheus. When does your's arrive?

</div></div>

I can't afford such extravagance, I just couldn't resist the jab...

 

[Lindy]

Re: For all you neck sizers

I know.

David's game is such that he can benefit from it, as can any square-range shooter, particularly one in which sighters are permitted. I think everyone who plays that game should buy one, immediately.

That's not my application for a precision rifle.

 

[josephberry]

Re: For all you neck sizers

Take a look at the Forster Bushing Bump Die. Sizes the neck (with interchangeable bushings) and adjusts headspace length without sizing the body of the case.

 

[Chanonry]

Re: For all you neck sizers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The less run out measured is most likely associated with the case run out not the bullet seating run out alone. It all shows up at the end of the round.
The body die may have just straightened the case a bit.
You got it right , the whole idea of body dies is to get the case back in the chamber reliably without over sizing it. </div></div>

Not sure I understand this ? I tested the difference between the two methods and looked at the case runout individually prior to seating then measured the runout after seating. I didn't see any difference in case runout between FLR+ Neck and Neck Only but the seated runouts were better on cases that had been FLR'd

?????

A

 

[Short Round]

Re: For all you neck sizers

As far as side by side comparisons with everything the same except one neck sized and the other FL sized.....I don't see the comparison as valid.

Why? case volume

To be fair you would work up a seperate load for each case sizing type and get the best of each and then shoot them head to head.

That's my two cents worth.

 

[vprtoad]

Re: For all you neck sizers

For your Tac rifle just get a FL bushing die and then you can control your shoulder bump as well as neck tension based on your bushing size
what ever your barrel likes the best

I want NO Problems when running a long string of shots so I prefer to FL for smooth bolt close and then pick the right bushing size as well

 

[Chanonry]

Re: For all you neck sizers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short Round</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as side by side comparisons with everything the same except one neck sized and the other FL sized.....I don't see the comparison as valid.

Why? case volume

To be fair you would work up a seperate load for each case sizing type and get the best of each and then shoot them head to head.

That's my two cents worth. </div></div>

OK, hadn't thought of that. It will affect optimum load possibly but it must be valid in terms of minimising bullet runout. I was trying to establish the best way to reload and minimise runout. I had missed the point re optimising for one specific process.

 

[USMCj]

Re: For all you neck sizers

If you want best of both worlds, have a custom full length size die made using a 2x fired case that still chambers in your rifle with little to no resistance. That way you dont have a undersized case sitting at the bottom of your chamber, and you are not overworking the case.

 

[bohem]

Re: For all you neck sizers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short Round</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as side by side comparisons with everything the same except one neck sized and the other FL sized.....I don't see the comparison as valid.

Why? case volume

To be fair you would work up a seperate load for each case sizing type and get the best of each and then shoot them head to head.

That's my two cents worth. </div></div>

I've tried that as well but not across as many rifles, just one in fact. I hesitated to include it before because I only tried it on the tight chamber. The tight chambered 30-06 optimized load with new brass was 59.2gr of powder as opposed to 59.5gr with 208 Amax's. It didn't shoot appreciably tighter, 3.1" on the same range. I'd be lying if I thought that it was just the rifle's differences in that average group size and not just a lucky instance on my part to shoot a slightly tighter group once or twice and having the average come in a little. The calling correlation seems to be the level of "slop" in the chamber.

For a tactical shooter that's judged on a first round hit (or the hunter for that matter) and no sighters are allowed, it seems to me that clearance in the chamber should be minimized.

The shoulder bump dies that only side the neck and shoulder are probably the best of both worlds, positive feeding reliability and minimizing the spaces.

For another consideration some guys only size 75% of the shoulder and leave the rest in an unsized state. Some rifles like it and some don't, and I've tried it in every one of mine. I haven't figured out what drives it, but I do know that the tight 30-06 doesn't like it, the loose 7 SAUM doesn't like it, but the tight 6-223 does... I don't know what to think about that just yet.

 

[bigwill214]

Re: For all you neck sizers

I can't say for sure whether it has been talked about or not. I may have missed it. Whether you FL or neck size, case life and accuracy are usually what is on the minds of the shooters. What good would a FL or neck sizer do if there is too much wear on the casing it's self. As long as the casing isn't getting worked too much, then I could see a value in either of them if the rifle likes it.