Foreward Assist ??

Pat M

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Re: Foreward Assist ??

I have 2 DPMS's (308 &260) , 1 flat side & 1 with assist, Assist is about useless - But i like the ejection port cover.
 

salmonaxe

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Re: Foreward Assist ??

Mine doesn't have one and I've never needed it or found myself wishing it was there.
 

ZLBubba

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Re: Foreward Assist ??

We were actually discussing the pros and cons today at work. Frankly, an FA is great to have, but I've never considered it a big issue on the AR-10 platform. The 7.62 gas guns that I've shot have always had enough energy to easily cycle the bolt and fully seat rounds into the chambers. With AR-15 platforms, I have definitely shot a few that benefitted from having an FA. The difference may be all perceived but that's how I see it.

Some people have incorporated hitting the forward assist into the muscle memory of their remedial action drills. For those folks, I'd think an FA is pretty much mandatory. I assume you aren't one of those people because you would have really pushed for an FA with any model you'd purchase.

I think you're good to go.
 

WRM

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Re: Foreward Assist ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have 2 DPMS's (308 &260) , 1 flat side & 1 with assist, Assist is about useless - But i like the ejection port cover. </div></div>

I almost started a thread about this the other day - the FA on the LR308 is not <span style="font-style: italic">"about useless"</span>, it IS useless, as in non-functioning! There are no "teeth" on the side of the carrier for the the FA to engage. I'm with you on the ejection port cover, and wish they'd have done a "combo" upper - "slick" rear (no boss) w/cover....

I'd expect AR-10s to be the same(?), but never examined one.

Cheers,

Bill
 

Anchor Zero Six

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Re: Foreward Assist ??

If you need more force than what can be applied directly to the carrier with your finger or thumb to seat the round in the chamber you probably dont need to shoot that round.

The original Stoner AR design called for exactly that and somewhere along the line the idea of ratcheting the carrier into battery became vogue.

Look at the pre M110 KAC's...no FA and thats about the most direct lineage to Eugene Stoner that can be found.
 

AQC440

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Re: Foreward Assist ??

The forward assist can be useful if you want to do a silent chamber check...otherwise if it doesn't fit,clear it.
 

Powder_Burns

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    The original Stoner rifle didn't have picatinny rails on top for mounting optics either---things get improved over time.
     

    WRM

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AQC440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The forward assist can be useful if you want to do a silent chamber check...otherwise if it doesn't fit,clear it. </div></div>

    On an AR-15, yes, but on 308 platforms, it's as useful as an Appendix....

    Bill
     

    Tinhorn

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    Thanks for the respond, I feel much better that I didn't screw up. I see so many with FA I was disappointed until reading your
    opinions. T.
     

    Pat M

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    I've had rounds that - almost chamber - tend to almost lockup but don't (big pain in the ass)

    FA could be used with a hammer to hit the FA with - which may chamber it all the way

    Had to use Forester match dies as my DPMS 308 chamber didn't like my old RCBS dies. (even had a small rounded screwdriver to pop open my bolt when the rounds didn't lock all the way - or i would really have to butt drop & pull on charging handle to get the round out)
     

    AXEMAN

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    they do make bolts with the teeth in them for 308s. i just didnt like the open slick sides eject port
     

    Strangedays

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    I have both AR-15s and LR-308 and I always buy with a FA. If you are hunting its nice to quietly place the gun in battery. Compared to the pull the charging handle and let it slide which will scare just about every living animal in the area away.
     

    camelback

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    Not a big fan of the forward assist. Looked at a DPMS the other day that had forward assist but no notches in the bolt. I guess it makes everybody feel good. I fall into the category of not wanting to chamber a round that doesn't go. I do like the ejection port cover though. As others stated would love to find a slick slide with a dust cover.
     

    AXEMAN

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    ok, for more confusion. i called a place that sells DPMS parts. i asked about the bolts. she said the DPMS bolts they have dont have serations. i sounded hesitant and she spoke right up and said she called DPMS and asked about them herself. her sales rep said that they dont offer one with them. all their 308 BCGs are with out the serations. we talked and i mentioned my doubts on the functionality of the f/a without them. we both skeptical. how can the f/a engage the bolt in any position without them? how will it do anything other than tap the back of the BCG? fultons have the cuts. so someone said they had a factory DPMS A3 upper with the cuts? curiouser and curiouser
     

    WRM

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they do make bolts with the teeth in them for 308s. i just didnt like the open slick sides eject port </div></div>

    I'd sure like to see a pic of that DPMS LR308 bolt carrier with the ratchet teeth.... I have two factory LR "FA" uppers and a spare carrier, and none of those have the teeth. DPMS lists only one LR bolt carrier in parts list, and that one does not have teeth (I just received mine after 6 mos wait).

    The problem is that the back of the carrier has reduced diameter (to fit AR buffer tube), yet the front of the carrier is larger for the 308 case, so the FA could not "reach" the carrier anyway?

    (Editted to add) Sorry AXEMAN, didn't realize that was your post just above mine. So basically your Rep(s) confirmed that they do NOT have notches - thanks....

    Thanks,

    Bill
     

    AXEMAN

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    not a clue, i am totally clueless. i am probably never gonna need it, but if there is a buffer with ratcher teeth cut in it, id lke to use that one. maybe fulton


    also, i didnt mean to say they as in DPMS, i meant to say that BCG's are made by someone with the cuts in them, not specifically that DPMS makes them. all the pictures i have seen of the ones for sale are smooth. if i get a fulton BCG, will the DPMS f/a hit the marks? should i worry or just snag my smooth one cheap? im calling my barrel guys, i heard they have bolts. fultons are smooth too, i just checked. weird
     

    Hellbender

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    The FA on the DPMS LR hits a raised shelf area on the Bolt Carrier, it does not engage teeth on the side as a normal AR. But it does work, just differently, it will only move the BC a small amount.
     

    okiefired

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    AR10's without FA DO have ejection port covers. Cant remember if the LR 308's I've looked at do or not though but from whats been said, I guess not. With quite a few diferent loads fired through it, my AR10T is closin on 3K rnds and has never needed FA.

    okie
     

    sgtbutt

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    Just my .02....... I have a DPMS styled IRA lower that I will be building soon. One of the main reasons that I am getting an IRA upper is the lack of FA, and still having an ejection cover. The IRA is a bit pricy compared to the DPMS models but has it's pluses.
    The 308, as well as a 223, cartidge is a straight case. Applying force to a walled cartidge is asking for trouble. If the round doesn't go in using a FA is only going to enhance your problem. Shoving a round into a dirty chamber, scratched chamber, etc, etc only means you are going to need to use more force to extract the cartidge.
    With a 223 upper, Mil Spec parts are everywhere, therefore a FA is the norm. With a 308 there is no standard... There are RRA, Armalite and DPMS styled systems. You might as well get the system that works for you.
    I'm going to get an IRA sans FA. I would get the DPMS but it is the higher rise railed upper which doesn't trip my trigger, no pun intended.
    YMMV
     

    LoneWolfUSMC

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    AR10_5755.jpg


    AR10 No FA. Does have a port door. Does just fine.

    I could care less if my precision rifle has a forward assist. On my M4 is is useful. Anyone who says it ain't has never run a suppressed carbine until the lube has cooked off and the upper has carboned up. Chamber checks can get interesting with a smoking hot bolt and a good deal of grit if you can't just slap the FA to lock the bolt into battery.
     

    KevinB-KAC

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you need more force than what can be applied directly to the carrier with your finger or thumb to seat the round in the chamber you probably dont need to shoot that round.

    The original Stoner AR design called for exactly that and somewhere along the line the idea of ratcheting the carrier into battery became vogue.

    Look at the pre M110 KAC's...no FA and thats about the most direct lineage to Eugene Stoner that can be found. </div></div>

    FYI NONE of the SR-25 series guns, Mk11's, M110's etc have Forward Assists.
    The reason is two fold.
    Spring Pressure on the Action Spring is a GREAT deal more than the 5.56mm guns.

    Silent Closing is a no go on a 7.62mm gun as the Ejector Pressure is a great deal more and anything prowerful enough to seat against it is not silent.

    We spoke to all the end users, and eventually after demonstrating about 6 different options, it was agreed that it was not a worthwhile addition.

    I don't use my 5.56mm forward assist, and have never seen the need to have a 7.62mm

    - if I cannot thumb the bolt forward after a press check, I simple rack the round and chamber a new one --
     

    AXEMAN

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    if its gonnas be like the white whale, im not chasing a BCG that may not even work. is it me or does the f/a reside in two different places?

    here is a dpms 308 upper
    4526970694_6987beb525.jpg


    and a rra side view...
    RRALAR8A4.gif


    IMG_2811.jpg


    or is the RR an armalite form? thanks stacyp for the loan of the pic. sweet rifle
     

    Anchor Zero Six

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    FYI NONE of the SR-25 series guns, Mk11's, M110's etc have Forward Assists.
    The reason is two fold.
    Spring Pressure on the Action Spring is a GREAT deal more than the 5.56mm guns.

    Silent Closing is a no go on a 7.62mm gun as the Ejector Pressure is a great deal more and anything prowerful enough to seat against it is not silent.

    We spoke to all the end users, and eventually after demonstrating about 6 different options, it was agreed that it was not a worthwhile addition.

    I don't use my 5.56mm forward assist, and have never seen the need to have a 7.62mm

    - if I cannot thumb the bolt forward after a press check, I simple rack the round and chamber a new one -- </div></div>

    KB, my appologies for the remark that the M110 had FWD assist. For some reason I thought it had one. At any rate you reaffirmed my original point that thumbing the bolt forward is all thats needed.
     

    Strangedays

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    FYI NONE of the SR-25 series guns, Mk11's, M110's etc have Forward Assists.
    The reason is two fold.
    Spring Pressure on the Action Spring is a GREAT deal more than the 5.56mm guns.

    Silent Closing is a no go on a 7.62mm gun as the Ejector Pressure is a great deal more and anything prowerful enough to seat against it is not silent.

    We spoke to all the end users, and eventually after demonstrating about 6 different options, it was agreed that it was not a worthwhile addition.

    I don't use my 5.56mm forward assist, and have never seen the need to have a 7.62mm

    - if I cannot thumb the bolt forward after a press check, I simple rack the round and chamber a new one -- </div></div>

    KB, my appologies for the remark that the M110 had FWD assist. For some reason I thought it had one. At any rate you reaffirmed my original point that thumbing the bolt forward is all thats needed. </div></div>
    Has anyone tried to thumb a hot BCG? Let me know how that works for yeah.
     

    bigwheeler

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    Can't remember if I would have ever used one on the Ar10 but Armalite must
    have had a reason for adding them, customer demand I would guess. I can't see
    how they hurt anything being there. It's a battle rifle, not a wall hanger or safe
    queen.
     

    rdl65

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    I have a Colt SP1 and and a SP1 Carbine. Neither has a forward assist or a need for one.
     
    G

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    The ability to close any weapon to battery "Quietly", should always be there. When fielding Cans with said weapon, it's even more important.
     

    cruzie27

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    my little Aramlite

    P1020023.jpg


    i made sure i had the upper with forward assist when i built up my AR-10,. just in case i think it is better to have and not need than to need and not have.

    on non AR-10 guns the forward assist seems to be a almost useless after thought that was added at the last min. at least with the Armalite there is the usual line of teeth for the assist to engage,. on this one .308 AR it appeared that the F/A engaged at only one point on the bolt carrier...

    still working on the final config of my AR-10 (replaced the Leupy with a Premier) and only have a few hundred rounds down the tube,. and so far i HAVE NOT needed the forward assist.

    if your gun has it,. sweet,. if not,.. don't sweat it bro.


    ETA: Tinhorn,. i know you said you got a AR-10T, but which flavor of "T" did you get bro?
     

    bloodfarts

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    what it the price difference between a forward assist and no forward assist?
    I'm an idiot.
    I have been shooting an ar since desert storm.
    Every rifle has had a forward assist.
    I'm forty now, I aint changing shit.
    I dont think I have used a forward assist except (like the Knight Arm guy had stated, unless I just bump it to make sure its loaded.
     

    deersniper

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    Use mine a fair amount to get the bolt closed quietly or on a dirty chamber.

    -dan
     

    DWood

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    Forward assist, neccessary or not? is an old debate. Army VS Navy. Not sure about the need on the 308 AR, but it doesn't hurt. Lots of info
    HERE

    Pfc Patrick Miller will argue that they are a good thing. Others will slam him for not keeping his rifle clean. such is the way of the Internet.
     

    B.Morgan

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    I've caused a bad situation to be worse a few times by using my forward assist but I agree it's nice to have just incase you have a minor problem with the bolt closing.
     

    Oodin

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bmorgan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've caused a bad situation to be worse a few times by using my forward assist</div></div> Yup, this. A few out of spec reloads + light tap on FA = jammed up weapon. Granted in that situation I shouldn't have hit the FA at all and I still don't regret having one (AR-15).
     

    AXEMAN

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    see i am just gonna buy the bolt where i found a DPMS cheapest. it has no serrations. in looking at the placement of the armalite f/a it looks like it hits the serrations, i think the DPMS placement makes the f/a hit the BCG in a different location possibly? ill know when i buy the BCG and install it. but it kinda makes sense.

    i have a buddy that swears he has see factory DPMS 308s with fully serrated BCGs. i think he saw a 223/556, but i cant swear to it and he cant produce any proof either...
     

    AXEMAN

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    just an update, with my BCG i can now say that the way DPMS does it is the prawl pokes at the back of the shoulder of the carrier right where it goes from 308 huge to 223 small to fit in the buffer tube. so its gotta be pretty far forward to even engage and if not...i guess your SOL huh? and oh yeah, geez thats alot of mass, lol. i let the carrier lock forward and that spring is a pogo huh? i had it sitting on my leg and it just rocked thru my body, lol. i cant wait to shoot it
     

    Mike Stolfus

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    The only time I've ever needed to use one, all it did was jam the round tighter into the chamber and made it a real bitch to clear.
     

    AXEMAN

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    that and it catches on stuff pretty good too, lol. it looks like it would do just that. i mean its a tight little area in there and i bet if it was more that 1/4" back, the prawl wouldnt even extend or have anythng to push against. meh, live and learn. i guess RRA has the only true functioning f/a then? located at the rear of the receiver with the grooves on the BCG to match.
     

    jpach

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, for more confusion. i called a place that sells DPMS parts. i asked about the bolts. she said the DPMS bolts they have dont have serations. i sounded hesitant and she spoke right up and said she called DPMS and asked about them herself. her sales rep said that they dont offer one with them. all their 308 BCGs are with out the serations. <span style="font-weight: bold">we talked and i mentioned my doubts on the functionality of the f/a without them. we both skeptical. how can the f/a engage the bolt in any position without them? how will it do anything other than tap the back of the BCG?</span> fultons have the cuts. so someone said they had a factory DPMS A3 upper with the cuts? curiouser and curiouser </div></div>


    You know what, until recently I had no clue that the DPMS BCGs didnt have the FA cuts in them. The reason why I didnt notice is because my FA would actually work!

    I dont know what it is with .308s but it seems there are many occasions where the bolt isnt 100% in battery when it should be.

    Ive even seen it happen with my buddys R-25. Both of our rifles wouldnt always lock in 100% if we would slowly ride the bolt closed on empty chamber. With AR-15s, the bolt locks every time.

    So there are indeed some occasions where the FA is needed, and on my FA DPMS upper, the FA did indeed work. I have no idea how though.
     

    AXEMAN

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    here you go.

    f/a pushed all the way and you see the prawl

    4939484598_25b5e658e2.jpg


    halfway extended

    4938909863_f23c18339a.jpg


    see the thinner part of the BCG, the stepped shoulder is where it hits

    4939487908_f5a9ba6909.jpg


    right behind the silver screw head
     

    cruzie27

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    Re: Foreward Assist ??

    That's the one my buddy has,.. I still like my Armalite FA better,.. I still have yet to use it but it looks like it is better designed and more thought out.