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Forgive me in advance for being potentially offensive in my ignorance...

As we get older we need some optical help and we also have more disposable income to feed the need.

At the age of 19 while shooting at 800 meters I was able to get a softball size group using the Armies NM M-14 with iron sights.

Now to be able to see that far I need optics.

Too much money with too little time is the cause of the problem?
 
One of the main points of relevance to this discussion that has "Not" been discussed openly is the original question ?
"Are all the bells and whistles necessary" ?
Those on both sides of the debate have offered positions to justify their thinking , and most of the points were valid in support of "said" position . However ; I have a relevant question inside this debate that must be asked .
If you take away the laser range finder , IR toys , and balistic computer from the "Modern" sniper , can they still make that 800-1,000 meter shot ? Long Range marksmanship is a learned skill , but those who are "recruited" to become Snipers have special skills that are demonstrated during their initial training . We just don't spend the "Bucks" to send anyone to Sniper School , but have we lowered the bar because of the technology involved today ?
Maybe I'm looking at this improperly ; but a "real shooter" can pick up a J.C. Higgins bolt .22 and put rounds in the black , just as they can do it with a Mosin , Remington , or any other weapon . At least they could when I went through the process . Maybe things have changed , and the "Tech" is now required .
And IMHO ; to all of you out there who "punch" holes with your 5.56 weapons , and think that it is a "Lethal" weapon at six or eight hundred meters , you are correct . IF you hit a vital area....If not ? Your target is going to collect themselves and put one on you with one of those antiquated .30 cal , worn out weapons that has a couple hundred thousand round through it , and your parents will get "that" telegram .
As the man said .....Never shoot a Large caliber man with a small caliber bullet ! My experience is that a AR , SKS , and a AK have the same "REAL" accurate killing distance of about 350 meters . Beyond that ? Ya got lucky . But that's just my opinion , and everyone has one.
 
Grind I pretty much agree with you except the bit about the 223/5.56. With the modern bullets they are effective, more so in some cases then the .30 cal.

That lessen was brought home to me yesterday. They had kind of a Republican Festivity in my county yesterday and part of it was they wanted to have some sort of match. My club at short notice asked me to put something together for them so I set up a little Steel Match.

Our targets are all AR500, 3/8 steel. I've tested these targets with 223s at 40 yards and they cause no damage (nor do 30 cal up to '06). So I set the limit of no closer then 50 yards for the use of the steel with rifles. Except for knocking them down, the 30 cals (again limit to '06) have no effect on the targets.

So these guys show up with all sorts of rifles, 7.62X36, ARs, even an 30-30. No problem except one guy shows up with Fed Match w/77 SMKs. They drilled through the targets. Nothing else put dents in the. Since we had to re-set after each person fired, it wasn't hard to tell who put the holes in the target. He was given some 55 gr. Ball to shoot and they did nt damage the steel.

I think the Army knew what they were doing in choosing the 77 SMK for their DM Rifle program.

Besides if you shoot and wound someone at 800 to 1000 yards, I don't think you have to worry about them getting to you. But every rule has an exception.

I realize that wasn't the real subject of your post, which I otherwise agree with.

All and all I just don't think the Army cares about marksmanship, nor has it ever, plus I don't see it changing. You can bet the average shoulder (not deployed) spends more time n PT in one week then they spend on marksmanship in a year.

I only know combat in the jungle. I look at the contraptions we call sniper rifles that cringe when I think about dragging them through the jungle.

Now as our wars wind down, our training is based on Afghan and Iraq, with very little thought of Jungle or Arctic Warfare.

I think back on my younger years and think how effective a M1903A3 would have been in SE Asia. But then my mind gets to thinking about the weight of the M2 Ball compared to the M193 I carried in my younger years.

We all have our opinions, right, wrong or indifferent. What I do know, I'm just an old Infantry Officer, even my dog doesn't listen to me. So I'll just keep shooting my vintage rifles.

Anther unrelated hint I discovered yesterday. Shot timers suck when someone is shooting a suppressed AR.
 
Gentlemen,

Would it be a fair statement to say that fieldcraft generally trumps technology?

Steve
 
Grind I pretty much agree with you except the bit about the 223/5.56. With the modern bullets they are effective, more so in some cases then the .30 cal.

That lessen was brought home to me yesterday. They had kind of a Republican Festivity in my county yesterday and part of it was they wanted to have some sort of match. My club at short notice asked me to put something together for them so I set up a little Steel Match.

Our targets are all AR500, 3/8 steel. I've tested these targets with 223s at 40 yards and they cause no damage (nor do 30 cal up to '06). So I set the limit of no closer then 50 yards for the use of the steel with rifles. Except for knocking them down, the 30 cals (again limit to '06) have no effect on the targets.

So these guys show up with all sorts of rifles, 7.62X36, ARs, even an 30-30. No problem except one guy shows up with Fed Match w/77 SMKs. They drilled through the targets. Nothing else put dents in the. Since we had to re-set after each person fired, it wasn't hard to tell who put the holes in the target. He was given some 55 gr. Ball to shoot and they did nt damage the steel.

I think the Army knew what they were doing in choosing the 77 SMK for their DM Rifle program.

Besides if you shoot and wound someone at 800 to 1000 yards, I don't think you have to worry about them getting to you. But every rule has an exception.

I realize that wasn't the real subject of your post, which I otherwise agree with.

All and all I just don't think the Army cares about marksmanship, nor has it ever, plus I don't see it changing. You can bet the average shoulder (not deployed) spends more time n PT in one week then they spend on marksmanship in a year.

I only know combat in the jungle. I look at the contraptions we call sniper rifles that cringe when I think about dragging them through the jungle.

Now as our wars wind down, our training is based on Afghan and Iraq, with very little thought of Jungle or Arctic Warfare.

I think back on my younger years and think how effective a M1903A3 would have been in SE Asia. But then my mind gets to thinking about the weight of the M2 Ball compared to the M193 I carried in my younger years.

We all have our opinions, right, wrong or indifferent. What I do know, I'm just an old Infantry Officer, even my dog doesn't listen to me. So I'll just keep shooting my vintage rifles.

Anther unrelated hint I discovered yesterday. Shot timers suck when someone is shooting a suppressed AR.

Not to go off topic, but since you mentioned `Nam Mr Kraig, have you ever met Mr Walter Shumate? :)
 
Can't say I do, that was 46 years ago and at that time there were over 500,000 of us over there. Being a grunt I spent most of my time in the field and didn't socializes much with others outside of my unit.

Reminds me though, I was at the Billings MT Airport and was driving out of the gate to pay for my parking. Lady taking the ticket saw my 101st hat and asked if I knew here brother, adding he was in the 101st. I asked her what BN and what was his name. She said she didn't know the unit, but said he did make all the jumps with the 101st from, Normandy to the end of the war.

I just smiled and drove off. Hoping I didn't look that old.
 
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Can't say I do, that was 46 years ago and at that time there were over 500,000 of us over there. Being a grunt I spent most of my time in the field and didn't socializes much with others outside of my unit.

Reminds me though, I was at the Billings MT Airport and was driving out of the gate to pay for my parking. Lady taking the ticket saw my 101st hat and asked if I knew here brother, adding he was in the 101st. I asked her what BN and what was his name. She said she didn't know the unit, but said he did make all the jumps with the 101st from, Normandy to the end of the war.

I just smiled and drove off. Hoping I didn't look that old.

I had someone begin a conversation with "My cousin is in the MArine Corps maybe you know him?......." I was about to go into the response about "198,000 Marines, all over the world, liklihood of knowing her cousin is nill....." than she mentioned the name and it was a guy from my Infantry Company.

Small world.
 
LOL I was just making a little joke. There actually was a real Walter Shumate in SOG, but he said something once like "heres some candy my dear, and if you must know its from Walter Shumate" to a little girl over there. Well it became a running joke in SOG and spread to all over `Nam for a while. Any time somebody would win a card game theyd yell "HA! You sons of bitches will never top Walter Shumate". Walter Shumate signed out with more prostitutes than any other person in Vietnam(that is, his was the name most often used). Just wondering if you`d ever heard that name before LOL.
 
Apologies to anyone who mis-understood my comment as I was speaking from my own in-country experience . I received a 5.56 round , delivered by a member of the Peoples Forces (V.C.) from a American made M-16 , A-1 E model at approx. 530 meters . The round went through two layers of camo jungle fatigue , a rubber cigarette case w/pack of Marlboro's and came to a stop , half bullet depth , in my shin-bone. I "felt" something hit my leg , and saw "Charles". Dropped to a kneeling postion and brought my "21" up , got sight picture and "sent it".
Another of my team members removed the round from my leg , dressed the wound and I got a "day-trip" to 69th Evac in Qhuin-Nhon a few days later when we got in.
I do understand that there have been massive advances in balistisc's in the last forty-five years but we have a diference of opinion in how we look at a 5.56 and that's okay. I'm just never going to be a "devotee" of that caliber or platform . And that's okay , too....
Mr. Kraig ; I dare-say that if I used one of my 7.62x54r , 7N-14 rounds ( lastest version ("97") of comparable round to 5.56 SMK ) it would also produce holes in your steel . I may be wrong , but I don't think so . Sorry Sir ; But I just never drank the kool-aid . Maybe that's why I chose to carry a SKS when they took my "14" away.. for over 19 months. I would have carried a Dragonov if they had allowed it .
 
Here is a little test I did at 25 yards. The 7.62X39 was fmj surplus ball, the 223 was M193 (55 gr FMJ) hard to tell from the picture but the 223 hole is a bit deeper then the 7.63X39. The 204 was the 32 gn Hornady, it out penetrated both ( but at 4200 fps MV).

Jun%2026%2008%20020.JPG
 
Sorry Slick . Can't let this go without a response. Your bias to modern "tech" is only exceeded by your arrogance of trying to compare a .30 cal 123/4 grn round with a muzzle velocity of around 2300 fps. to a B.B. at 4,200 fps... Really ?
I notice you didn't respond to my comment regarding the 7N11-1 or 7N14 round , but chose to compare your super high velocity round to standard mil-surp. Since we're playing "that" game .....How bout using some of the "standard" military issue , Chinese "penetrator" rounds for the AK / SKS that would compensate for your three times the speed of sound B.B.? Guess you don't want to have that conversation , cause "THAT standard mil-surp round will completely penetrate one inch cold roll at 300 yards . Seen it / Done it .
This is almost like debating a "Liberal" when they keep changing the parameters of the debate . But that's okay . Cause you like B.B's and I like Bullets . "Rangers All the Way".....Airborne
 
I was comparing the standard M193 (55 gr ball 224 cal) with the standard AK/SKS (123 gr ball 308), both FMJ because they were used during the same period.

I threw the 204 Ruger in "just because) it was laying on the bench and I wanted to see what happened. I no way met that it should be used as a military round. Its great for varmints up to and including coyotes, but that is what it is, a varmint round.

As too the 7N11-1 or 7N14, yes its an improvement over the standard 7.62X54R, just as the M1 AP is an improvement over the M2 Ball used in our M1903s/M1s in the 40s. The Russians were just 50+ years behind the US in this field.

I guess the 7N11-1 or 7N14 and M1 AP are closer to the original subject of this thread. Modern Tech. VS Old School. The 7N11-1 or 7N14 developed in the '90s is a step backwards to the Old School. The M1 AP came out in 1940, which is identical to the M1922 developed by Col. Clay (Ord Dept) during WWI.

Our Army use to have a tendency to use AP in everything, and do away with ball, that changed after WWII (to a point, M1903A4/M1C&Ds were the exception) but we now seemed to have gone back to the AP in our currently 5.56 Ammo, replacing the M193 Ball.

But again don't read too much in my 204 comments, that was thrown in for shits & giggles.

I threw in the 77 SMK and its destruction of AR500 targets as a warning to those who use 223s and steel targets because I just had a match where some guy showed up with the 77s and poked holes in our targets.

Why, I'm not real sure. They aren't armor piercing, they are lead core open point bullets. My theory (guess is a better term) is it worked like a shape charge effect.

During WWI when armor first started showing up on the front, soldiers found the ball ammo used wouldn't penetrate the light armor. GIs started pulling the ball ammo and re-inserting the bullet base first. This greatly improved the penetration of the bullet. The lead core would get hot and burn through the armor spewing hot lead inside the tank, setting fuel and ammo on fire.

(See: Men Against Tanks: History of Anti-tank Warfare by John S. Weeks)

I wonder if that isn't what caused the 77 SMKs to get through the AR 500. Upon examine the holes in the plates, its much large then 224 and looks like the metal around the edges was melted instead of ripped.

Its going to take some one much smarted then me to figure that one out. I've banned AP rounds from shooting at our steel, and now I have banned the use of 77 SMKs also.
 
At 200/300 yards, from a 16 inch carbine Nosler CC 77s (SMK clone) have no effect, other than noise, on AR500.
 
. The bullets just aren't made in .30 cal that compete with 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm.

the bullets are made 220 hpbt nosler .690, 230 berger .743, 208 a max .640, 240 sierra .711. but as you said you do need a magnum platform to shoot them as effectively but they deliver way more ftlbs down range than 6, 6.5, and 7mm bullets. a guy from africa who grew up shooting a 375 h&h would laugh at a guy who thinks his 15 pound 300wm is punishing to shoot. he would only think it was punishing to carry. i shoot my 700p 300wm all the time and do not think it needs a break and with the gun properly fitted to me dont think it is punishing. i flinch more from the extra noise made by a muzzle brake than i ever had from recoil. i hate muzzle brakes. but i am waiting for my 7.62 suppressor
 
(See: Men Against Tanks: History of Anti-tank Warfare by John S. Weeks)

I wonder if that isn't what caused the 77 SMKs to get through the AR 500. Upon examine the holes in the plates, its much large then 224 and looks like the metal around the edges was melted instead of ripped.

Its going to take some one much smarted then me to figure that one out. I've banned AP rounds from shooting at our steel, and now I have banned the use of 77 SMKs also.[/QUOTE]

i shoot my ar500 plates from 200 to 800 almost exclusivley with 77 smk bullets and have never seen so much as a pock mark from them
 
You like them or you don't no mystery......

This 7.62X51 shoots .5 MOA at 200 meters and is quite famous at Bisley and even I put three sighters into one inch at 200 meters..........

bis005_zpsff3408f4.jpg
 
You like them or you don't no mystery......

This 7.62X51 shoots .5 MOA at 200 meters and is quite famous at Bisley and even I put three sighters into one inch at 200 meters..........

bis005_zpsff3408f4.jpg

I like it! What, exactly, is this rifle / scope combo?
 
I like it! What, exactly, is this rifle / scope combo?

One of several amazing rifles I had the chance to shoot at the Trafalgar meet at Bisley in the UK. It belongs to one of the senior range masters and was built on a #4T sniper receiver using a #5 jungle carbine for furniture and flash hider and a 7.62X51 barrel under the #32 MkIII scope. In the UK you can't just build this at home and go shooting, it must be inspected, pressure proofed and receive stamps from a licensed inspection station that will cost you a few quid. Chime in here basraboy. I started gathering the materials as soon as I returned stateside. At some point I realized the value of the parts were such that a restoration to original specks would be more productive.

IMG_3962a_zps384ecaab.jpg


DSCF0026c_zpsfc6717d5.jpg


9917482a.jpg


End result I will have two new rifles one in 7.62X51 as a target rifle and the restored #4T

3082006a_zps5fa6a03a.jpg


Pura Vida

DSCF9113b_zpsb5f57c51.jpg

541ef991a_zpsa4960adf.jpg
 
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Sorry Slick . Can't let this go without a response. Your bias to modern "tech" is only exceeded by your arrogance of trying to compare a .30 cal 123/4 grn round with a muzzle velocity of around 2300 fps. to a B.B. at 4,200 fps... Really ?
I notice you didn't respond to my comment regarding the 7N11-1 or 7N14 round , but chose to compare your super high velocity round to standard mil-surp. Since we're playing "that" game .....How bout using some of the "standard" military issue , Chinese "penetrator" rounds for the AK / SKS that would compensate for your three times the speed of sound B.B.? Guess you don't want to have that conversation , cause "THAT standard mil-surp round will completely penetrate one inch cold roll at 300 yards . Seen it / Done it .
This is almost like debating a "Liberal" when they keep changing the parameters of the debate . But that's okay . Cause you like B.B's and I like Bullets . "Rangers All the Way".....Airborne

You may wanna tone it down sir, youre pretty new here and Mr Kraig is a highly respected member. There wasnt anything wrong with your post per se, but I guarantee you wont get along well here if you respond to a mod or Mr Frank like that.
 
One of the main points of relevance to this discussion that has "Not" been discussed openly is the original question ?
"Are all the bells and whistles necessary" ?
Those on both sides of the debate have offered positions to justify their thinking , and most of the points were valid in support of "said" position . However ; I have a relevant question inside this debate that must be asked .
If you take away the laser range finder , IR toys , and balistic computer from the "Modern" sniper , can they still make that 800-1,000 meter shot ? Long Range marksmanship is a learned skill , but those who are "recruited" to become Snipers have special skills that are demonstrated during their initial training . We just don't spend the "Bucks" to send anyone to Sniper School , but have we lowered the bar because of the technology involved today ?
Maybe I'm looking at this improperly ; but a "real shooter" can pick up a J.C. Higgins bolt .22 and put rounds in the black , just as they can do it with a Mosin , Remington , or any other weapon . At least they could when I went through the process . Maybe things have changed , and the "Tech" is now required .
And IMHO ; to all of you out there who "punch" holes with your 5.56 weapons , and think that it is a "Lethal" weapon at six or eight hundred meters , you are correct . IF you hit a vital area....If not ? Your target is going to collect themselves and put one on you with one of those antiquated .30 cal , worn out weapons that has a couple hundred thousand round through it , and your parents will get "that" telegram .
As the man said .....Never shoot a Large caliber man with a small caliber bullet ! My experience is that a AR , SKS , and a AK have the same "REAL" accurate killing distance of about 350 meters . Beyond that ? Ya got lucky . But that's just my opinion , and everyone has one.

To address your question: yes a modern sniper (on average) would still probably out class a sniper from the days of old even with out a laser range finder, NODs and ballistic computer. Simply put our training and knowledge has come a long way. Technology certain would give us a Hugh edge but it is not a crutch and the bar most certainly has not been lowered. I teach at a Group Level SFSC, most of my students are special forces soldiers with 3 or more years of OTJ training and we still average a washout rate of 20-40%.
 
You like them or you don't no mystery......

This 7.62X51 shoots .5 MOA at 200 meters and is quite famous at Bisley and even I put three sighters into one inch at 200 meters..........

bis005_zpsff3408f4.jpg

I've dreamed of this rifle a hundred times, someday I'm going to get off my ass and build one myself...someday.
 
I was comparing the standard M193 (55 gr ball 224 cal) with the standard AK/SKS (123 gr ball 308), both FMJ because they were used during the same period.

I threw the 204 Ruger in "just because) it was laying on the bench and I wanted to see what happened. I no way met that it should be used as a military round. Its great for varmints up to and including coyotes, but that is what it is, a varmint round.

As too the 7N11-1 or 7N14, yes its an improvement over the standard 7.62X54R, just as the M1 AP is an improvement over the M2 Ball used in our M1903s/M1s in the 40s. The Russians were just 50+ years behind the US in this field.

I guess the 7N11-1 or 7N14 and M1 AP are closer to the original subject of this thread. Modern Tech. VS Old School. The 7N11-1 or 7N14 developed in the '90s is a step backwards to the Old School. The M1 AP came out in 1940, which is identical to the M1922 developed by Col. Clay (Ord Dept) during WWI.

Our Army use to have a tendency to use AP in everything, and do away with ball, that changed after WWII (to a point, M1903A4/M1C&Ds were the exception) but we now seemed to have gone back to the AP in our currently 5.56 Ammo, replacing the M193 Ball.

But again don't read too much in my 204 comments, that was thrown in for shits & giggles.

I threw in the 77 SMK and its destruction of AR500 targets as a warning to those who use 223s and steel targets because I just had a match where some guy showed up with the 77s and poked holes in our targets.

Why, I'm not real sure. They aren't armor piercing, they are lead core open point bullets. My theory (guess is a better term) is it worked like a shape charge effect.

During WWI when armor first started showing up on the front, soldiers found the ball ammo used wouldn't penetrate the light armor. GIs started pulling the ball ammo and re-inserting the bullet base first. This greatly improved the penetration of the bullet. The lead core would get hot and burn through the armor spewing hot lead inside the tank, setting fuel and ammo on fire.

(See: Men Against Tanks: History of Anti-tank Warfare by John S. Weeks)

I wonder if that isn't what caused the 77 SMKs to get through the AR 500. Upon examine the holes in the plates, its much large then 224 and looks like the metal around the edges was melted instead of ripped.

Its going to take some one much smarted then me to figure that one out. I've banned AP rounds from shooting at our steel, and now I have banned the use of 77 SMKs also.

Not to get to off topic but your idea about the 77 smks is interesting, I've heard of the wwI improvisation using backwards ball but I've never tested it...yet. That said I've seem quite a bit of mk262 shot at AR500 but I've never seen it do what you're describing. Is it possible your AR500 might not actual be AR500? Or even is it possible that the gentleman shooting 77 smks may have been less than forth coming about his ammo?
 
Actually, there could be some real physics at work here. Lead and depleted uranium are very similar substances; in fact lead is uranium that has been depleted to the point of complete transmutation.

The thing that make depleted uranium so effective is the hypervelocity involved.

Does this make the 77SMK, or reversed jacketed lead projectiles perform similar to DU?

I seriously doubt that such hypervelocities could be achieved using handloader-available components, as has been proved repeatedly.

Also, the armor on WWI tanks was a far cry from the modern stuff.

Greg
 
The thing that make depleted uranium so effective is the hypervelocity involved.

Hyper velocity is not required for DU to work. It does make it work BETTER.

GAU-8A (A-10) has a MV of about 3600 (what I was told in A-10 training). And it would work on a tank at 2000 yards. Surely not going hyper velocity at that point.
 
No, hypervelocity may not be at work, however, don't forget the A-10 is shooting a HUGE piece of metal at 3600 fps. The A-10 round has both a ton of mass, AND a pretty high MV going for it. I'm not saying that if the A-10 round was lead, and all else being equal, it would yield the same results, but the size of the 'bullet' going down range, at that velocity, with that given mass all work together to create such a lethal round with devastating impact. Since this thread has began, I've shot some Federal GMM 77gr SMK in my AR. At only 100 yards, on my AR/500 targets, it did nothing more than blow the white paint off of it. Just posting my experience, but also to say that I'm NOT counting on this round to penetrate ARMOR, but rather for what it is: an effective match round, and anti-personnel round, if need be.
 
Great Points Mike!

I continue to be shocked at how ill-informed people are and their belief that the more expensive a weapon system is, the more effective it MUST be or that if the military uses it, it must be awesome (reference the M110...a more accurate and reliable rifle can be built for 1/3 of the cost).

I am building an M1941 Sniper with a reproduction 8X scope. It wont be ready for Camp Perry this year, but i will take it to perry to shoot the vintage sniper matches (300yards & 600 yards, one shot at time, at limited exposure targets...).

I think it's crazy the military is adopting the XM2010 or whatever its called...its a 300WM, and no matter how you treat the barrel, the accurate barrel life sucks and still be less than 2000 rounds (closer to 1,100 to 1,500). It must be non-shooters/tactical ninja sniper type people not schooled in highpower shooting making these decisions.

For instance, the ammo spec for this rifle is the MK 248 MOD 0 and MOD 1

It shoots two (2) outdated bullets 190SMK & 220 SMK at a nominal velocity of 2,850ft/s. Weak!

The same performance can be obtained from a 30-06, shooting MORE MODERN bullets 190gr VLD & 210 Berger VLDs AT THE SAME VELOCITY with 5X the barrel life of the XM2010...oh well.

Back on track, the Vintage Snipers and the base rifles they were derived from are soo accurate that the only way to extract the performance difference from modern sniper rifles is at a range, with solid rests, with no-one shooting back at you and match grade ammo...in other words, it's the Indian not the bow.

Sorry but the comment about the .30-06 being the equal of the .300WM is wishful thinking at best. We are discussing modern rounds, capable of being issued to military units for deployment anywhere in the world where atmospheric conditions could range from below freezing to extremely high temperatures. Given those parameters, a hand load on or above the ragged edge of pressure for the .30-06 is simply NOT an option. I have extensive experience with both .30-06 and .300WM and a moderate amount of experience with .338LM.

There is simply no way the .30-06 can be safely and consistently loaded to equal the .300WM performance over the wide range of climatic conditions it may be exposed to. During my various careers in the military, firearms industry and law enforcement, I have found that you can surely make ONE of anything but replicating and mass producing that item is fraught with difficulties and frustration.

I've pushed the .300WM HARD in the past, to the point of sticky bolt lift and primers falling out! On an older camera, I have a photograph of a chrono reading of 3450fps for a 168gr Barnes TSX out of a 26" barrel Win Mod 70. STUPID hot load and unrepeatable, unsafe and too high pressure. Again, the loads developed in the cool of winter were far too hot on a 100 degree day in July.

You also forget that hot rounds are hot rounds, period. Whether they be .300WM or .30-06, when you start pushing rounds hard, using excessive amounts of powder, you don't get the same barrel life as you did shooting much milder rounds. This in and of itself is no big deal. Most modern sniper rifles are designed to have either user or at most, armorer replaceable barrels. The fact the military allows contractors to charge excessive amounts of money for the replacement barrels is on us, not the military or the manufacturer. The simple fact of the matter is that today's sniper rifle is in the hands of the most well trained, educated and experienced shooters ever. Are they the easiest rifles to hump? No. Are they accurate as they possibly could be? Yes, they sure are.

In terms of the OP's original question, based on my experience with multiple sniper weapons of WW2 and some of the post WW2 era, I would say there is a difference between what the military require and what a much cheaper but just as accurate rifle can achieve. Let me expand; the military rifle needs to be accurate, rugged and reliable above all else. Competition guns need many of the same attributes but not to the extreme required by the .mil. If you fail to make a shot on steel at 650m in competition because your equipment let you down, you're going to lose points. In combat, the potential result for failing to neutralize the target could be catastrophic so the stakes are considerably higher in the mil world.

Reading many of the previous comments, there seems to be an over emphasizing of the capabilities of the famed snipers of WW2. Simo Häyhä, in addition to the Mosin-Nagant, also used a Lahti sub gun in 9mm to great effect and IIRC, claimed to have killed more Russians with it than the rifle. Close range range shots at a poorly prepared enemy, akin to clubbing seals, isn't the best advert for sniper rifles per se. Not taking a damn thing away from an extremely brave man but I would say his field craft skills had much more to do with his ability to inflict terrible losses on the enemy than his pure marksmanship skills. Vasily Zaytsev also possessed exceptional field craft skills and a intuitive tactical mind which led to great success in Stalingrad and elsewhere. However, these men, just like Hathcock and other notable snipers had a 'feel' or instinct for their trade, rather than being dependent on their tools. The average sniper in WW2 didn't rack up high numbers of kills and was often an above average shot who was given a sniper rifle over other men in his unit. Some of the most skilled snipers appeared during WW1 in the much less fluid and stagnant battle fields of trench warfare. Their tools were even more primitive than WW2 but they achieved considerable success. I guess my point is that the rifle is less important than the person behind it.

In the last decade, we have seen a paradigm shift in the capabilities of factory produced rifles. Savage rifles were always pretty accurate but their invention and popularization of the Accu-trigger educated a new generation of rifle shooters to demand more than the tired old shit being turned out by rifle makers. If you look at the crop of newer, inexpensive hunting rifles from Remington, Savage, Ruger and Mossberg, they share many of the same qualities. Namely, they have barrel nut attached barrels, solid bedding systems, user adjustable triggers and synthetic stocks. While their main driving force is reduce manufacturing costs, the end result of high quality CNC machining is off the shelf rifles that more often than not shoot very well indeed right from the start. I have an objective, when time and money permit, to assemble a rifle system based off the Mossberg .308 Patrol rifle that will be competitive in the PRS comps and do it for under $1000. I think it is possible but we shall see.

Until the Tracking Point type rifle system is advanced to the point a decent rifle shot can be issued a system with the expectation of first round hits in the realm of 70% out to 1,500m, the well trained sniper will remain a necessity. Even when (for it is coming) technology replaces the major shooting skill sets of the sniper, they will still be needed. Technology is fine until it breaks but when it does, we'll need that guy who can range using mil dots, accurately dope wind and dial corrections versus a button pusher. The button pusher will still have to get to a point where they can engage the enemy to begin with so unless and until we come up with a fully automated, remote control, drone sniper, the guy in the gillie suit will still be with us.
 
This is a great thread. I follow these discussions because I learn so much. First off, I didn't realize, for instance, there is a new focus on the 1500m range for sniper rifles and/or the sniper's capabilities. If you look at the "old" .308 type rifles, which are capable to 1000m, with a majority of their shots beings 80% of that range or closer, (800m or closer), then is the Army still planning for their shooters to engage at the same "majority of these shots" being 80% of that range: or 1200m? Even if they aren't, and really plan on most all of their snipers to engage at 1500m, the .300WM is a pretty good choice, IMO. Around here in the rolling-hill countryside of Southern Illinois, one would be hard-pressed to actively engage a target that distance. In fact, 800m would be a long shot. That's just the nature of the landscape here. Go out to Colorado Springs area, and head up into the hills, and I'd say the distance would be even shorter. My point is: in WW2, the equipment was pretty-well matched for the battlefields we were mainly fighting in, either Europe or the Pacific. Today, the battlefields we are actively engaged in can be from near point-blank (ie...urban areas in Iraq), to 1500m+ (ie...Afghanistan). As such, the Army feels it needs sniper rifles with requirements the .308 can't meet (in their opinion). That in no way takes away from the snipers of old, and their achievements, but I believe it does make it hard to compare them with today's military snipers. Today's snipers are trained for a much longer period of time, but a lot of that is also in using specialized equipment. My understanding, from what I've read, is the SEAL Sniper course is something like 13+ weeks, and the first part of it has to do with being able to photograph, and send images with their very specialized gear. In WW2 times, this component wasn't even imagined, as one example. For any "long range" shooting for defensive purposes, the .308 suits me fine should a very remote possibility ever arise. For really long-range shooting / sports / competition, my choice is more the 7mm mag, not the .300WM, but that's just my personal preference. I'm not going for "kills" per se, but rather for hitting steel, and punching paper. It would seem the military has gained a LOT of institutional knowledge these past 15 years or so; I hope they continue to keep it and build on it in the decades to come.
 
The reality is snipers have always been relied upon to not only engage strategic targets and targets of opportunity but to gather intelligence vital to the effective conduct of operations. If you read "Sniping in France" by Major H. Hesketh-Prichard D.S.O., M.C (available to read on line here: Sniping in France by Major H. Hesketh-Prichard ) you'll rapidly discover that while the snipers on both sides were effective in reducing morale, their value as observers and scouts was even more important in the greater scheme of things. Indeed, the book is subtitled; "With Notes on the Scientific Training of Scouts, Observers, and Snipers."

While the methods of imparting real time intel to the head sheds or big brains may have changed, the mission hasn't. I think the adoption of the new sniper system is an attempt to provide a mission specific adaptable platform with the maximum amount of compatibility and a minimum amount of parts. There's no secret to what makes an accurate and reliable rifle: a good barrel, properly chambered and fitted to the action so as to remove any stresses, bolt in line with the barrel, a rock solid stock properly bedded to the action with a manageable trigger, a good optical system firmly mounted and quality ammo. After that, its down to the person behind the trigger to fully understand the system and work to maximize its potential.
 
gman,

You seem to have inferred the wrong conclusion from my post.

Nowhere did I say that the .30-06 is the equal of the .300WM.

What i did say is the loads the military chose for the .300WM can be achieved by the .30-06. Not only can the .30-06 achieve those velocities with more modern bullets, with Higher BC, (and hence better performance in wind and elevation), it will also do so safely, without having to "hotrod" or over-pressure the rifle/cartridge.

Firstly though, we need to define the terms of the performance claim; specifically what constitutes "over-pressure"...if SAAMI values is your definition of over-pressure, then sure, the 60,000psi load (30-06) will not perform well when compared to the 64,000psi load (300WM).

If you have Quickload, i invite you to load up the 215gr Berger in an -06 with RL-22 or H-4831 powder and compare it to the .300WM with same bullet but with H-1000 or another suitable powder...what you will notice is

* A performance delta in the 150-200ft/s range in favor of the 300WM...same as the performance delta between .308 and .30-06 with heavier bullets.
* 15-25% less powder required in the 30-06 for the same chamber pressures.

There are also things such as:

* Significantly longer barrel life 3-5 times longer barrel life in favor of the .30-06
* Longer barrel life = less time swapping barrels, less equipment maintenance
* Less recoil and reduced tendency of shooter flinch during training

So Yes, while the .300WM is a step up from the -06, the specific application (new sniper load developed by the army) could have been done more cost efficiently by the selection of the .30-06 with a modern bullet + powder combination.

With respect to the Army's projectile choice, the 215gr Berger has a G1 BC of .696. This compares to the .696 BC of the 220gr SMK chosen by the military. You could therefore run the 215 Berger at a significantly slower velocities (150ft/s slower) and still outperform the 220gr SMK at 2,850ft/s.

There's a reason Bergers rule the roost at the long lines...the Berger bullets are a significant performance increase compared against the sierras in any weight category.
 
gman,

You seem to have inferred the wrong conclusion from my post.

Nowhere did I say that the .30-06 is the equal of the .300WM.

What i did say is the loads the military chose for the .300WM can be achieved by the .30-06. Not only can the .30-06 achieve those velocities with more modern bullets, with Higher BC, (and hence better performance in wind and elevation), it will also do so safely, without having to "hotrod" or over-pressure the rifle/cartridge.

Firstly though, we need to define the terms of the performance claim; specifically what constitutes "over-pressure"...if SAAMI values is your definition of over-pressure, then sure, the 60,000psi load (30-06) will not perform well when compared to the 64,000psi load (300WM).

If you have Quickload, i invite you to load up the 215gr Berger in an -06 with RL-22 or H-4831 powder and compare it to the .300WM with same bullet but with H-1000 or another suitable powder...what you will notice is

* A performance delta in the 150-200ft/s range in favor of the 300WM...same as the performance delta between .308 and .30-06 with heavier bullets.
* 15-25% less powder required in the 30-06 for the same chamber pressures.

There are also things such as:

* Significantly longer barrel life 3-5 times longer barrel life in favor of the .30-06
* Longer barrel life = less time swapping barrels, less equipment maintenance
* Less recoil and reduced tendency of shooter flinch during training

So Yes, while the .300WM is a step up from the -06, the specific application (new sniper load developed by the army) could have been done more cost efficiently by the selection of the .30-06 with a modern bullet + powder combination.

With respect to the Army's projectile choice, the 215gr Berger has a G1 BC of .696. This compares to the .696 BC of the 220gr SMK chosen by the military. You could therefore run the 215 Berger at a significantly slower velocities (150ft/s slower) and still outperform the 220gr SMK at 2,850ft/s.

There's a reason Bergers rule the roost at the long lines...the Berger bullets are a significant performance increase compared against the sierras in any weight category.


Everything you say is reasonable except for the fact that the military is not working up a load for one rifle!
secant ogive projos generally don't like to jump very far to engagement. So unless your going to have all the snipers hump loading equipment so they can tweak their loads per individual rifle you go with a tangent ogive on your run of a billion rounds which is much less critical and produces the required accuracy over a much wider band of rifles and their conditions.
Will this give you the optimum in every rifle ? No
Will it give you acceptable across a greater majority of rifles? Yes
I can still remember the conversations when the M24 was in the works. " Long action for .300W !! when are they ever going to need that?
Now all everyone says is .300W isn't enough. Cracks me up!
Your points are valid but not for mass production.
 
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There's a reason Bergers rule the roost at the long lines...the Berger bullets are a significant performance increase compared against the sierras in any weight category.

No Bergers don't rule the roost, nor does Sierras.....................Military Ball rules the roost, when you have to start dealing with company trains, supply problems, etc. You'll see that.

Bergers and Sierras are nice when we can have Midway send them to our door, but when you're in the field for 30-60 days or more, you best be able to use what the resupply choppers bring you.

I want a rifle I can feed. A 2 MOA rifle beats a .5 MOA rifle that you cant get ammo for by a long shot.
 
MAT4,

Berger also makes Hybrid (tangent + Secant ogive profiles) versions of these bullets which are jump tolerant and have even higher BCs than the "VLD" versions of the bullets.

I hear ya on the old style Berger bullets, but Berger has addressed this with the new Hybrid series.

My comment re meeting the requirements more efficiently with a .30-06 still stands....
 
MAT4,

Berger also makes Hybrid (tangent + Secant ogive profiles) versions of these bullets which are jump tolerant and have even higher BCs than the "VLD" versions of the bullets.

I hear ya on the old style Berger bullets, but Berger has addressed this with the new Hybrid series.

My comment re meeting the requirements more efficiently with a .30-06 still stands....

Tx,
Again valid data.
However I'm afraid you are missing the point.
Comp shooters can chase every new development. The military can't just turn supply systems on a dime.
You mentioned dissatisfaction with the cost of some of the newer adopted systems. Thats what happens when large procurement chases cutting edge.
The M24 hit the field in 88. In development before that. Configuring it for a cartridge upgrade ability was real forethought at that time. The components you propose weren't around then.
and as mentioned by gman would not likely perform acceptably in all environments which is a MAJOR requirement.
Mk 248 is a progression which was on its way before your projos were available to test.
This thread is about the military application and that has to consider the logistical factors involved.
They are likely working on new specs now which incorporate some of what you are talking about but buy the time it is tested, approved, contracted and produced it too will be
outmoded tech.
But you gotta dance with the gal what you brung!

As far as " meeting the" MILITARY "requirement more efficiently with a 30.06" I don't think so.
 
No, hypervelocity may not be at work, however, don't forget the A-10 is shooting a HUGE piece of metal at 3600 fps. The A-10 round has both a ton of mass, AND a pretty high MV going for it. I'm not saying that if the A-10 round was lead, and all else being equal, it would yield the same results, but the size of the 'bullet' going down range, at that velocity, with that given mass all work together to create such a lethal round with devastating impact. Since this thread has began, I've shot some Federal GMM 77gr SMK in my AR. At only 100 yards, on my AR/500 targets, it did nothing more than blow the white paint off of it. Just posting my experience, but also to say that I'm NOT counting on this round to penetrate ARMOR, but rather for what it is: an effective match round, and anti-personnel round, if need be.

I was commenting on the need for hypervelocity for DU to work.

A-10 fired two real rounds (plus a target practice steel round). HEI and API. API was a DU pentrator.

DU works by chemically reacting with the steel upon impact created extremely high heat. It creates spalling on the inside, making molten BBs bouncing around.

A-10 projectile was about 1.2 pounds at 3600 fps, plus 300 - 325 knots airspeed added. But again, it would kill tanks (not front armor) at 2000 yards.
 
I was commenting on the need for hypervelocity for DU to work.

Gotcha.

Has anyone else had the experience of Mr Kraig and 77gr SMK drilling holes in AR500 armor plates? This kind of disturbs me as I like that round, but also, don't really want to risk damaging mine or anyone elses plates I might shoot. Again last night, at 100 yards, just blowing off of the paint, and no damage. I'm going to visit a friend in CO in a couple of weeks, and we'll be doing some shooting while I'm there. He has 8 or 9 AR500 targets he's planning on us using, however, he's mainly an XM193 ammo guy (55gr FMJ), so I'm a bit concerned.
 
I see what youre saying, a .30-06 w/ 215gr Hybrids will match and likely surpass a .300 WM with 220gr SMK`s. However, I dont know that Berger would be able to meet supply demands, and the .30-06 is already phased out so I doubt the .mil would consider bringing it back. A .300 WM with 220gr Scenar-L`s would be a sweet round for the .mil too and should have better ballistics than 220gr SMK while staying with the tangent ogive. But again, the military is a slow moving machine, and has to have stuff that works all the time, every time. Going with a more reliable and readily available piece of equipment will always be a better choice.

Far as the 248 ammo, didnt some of them have problems with blowing rifles up? And for that matter, Ive heard R700-based rifles had pressure issues with that ammo but Accuracy International rifles did not have any issues. Whats the difference in the chamber design to allow that to happen?

Thanks yall.
 
I am wondering if anyone has the balllistics chart and stats for the new US Military ammo in 300 WM. I probably could have gotten it recently, unless it is classified, but had so many questions there was not enough time for everything. I was told that the new round had nearly the performance of 338 LM and a new high for max effective range for 300 WM.
 
Respectfully!
Along the lines of the point I was making with Txflyer
This thread is totally off topic. Lots of stuff you guys are talking about is very interesting but belongs in a separate thread under a relevant forum topic.
What often causes needlessly rancorous debates is two posters trying to win a debate about totally unrelated subjects.
#2 in the Forum Rules.
No offense, just saying.
 
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Respectfully!
Along the lines of the point I was making with Txflyer
This thread is totally off topic. Lots of stuff you guys are talking about is very interesting but belongs in a separate thread under a relevant forum topic.
What often causes needlessly rancorous debates is two posters trying to win a debate about totally unrelated subjects.
#2 in the Forum Rules.
No offense, just saying.

Welcome to the world of internet forums.

This is how they go. ALWAYS. Just like people talking, the subject moves around.
 
Thanks MAT. I am not seeing the ballistics chart but I am seeing they whipped up somthing better fairly recently, which I had been told. I see some numbers on bullet type, weight etc. and development apparently from Black Hills. I also know ammo was a problem about a year ago and they were having trouble getting ammo that was MOA or better.
 
...I certainly am not intentionally offending anyone. I'm not speaking from a point of any authority, implied or explicit, I'm a novice. Completely green.

My question is, have we really come that far?

The Vintage Sniper Rifle forum feels "warm and cozy" because of my upbringing and family. My understanding of what an issue grade vintage service rifle is capable of, as the extension of a competent rifleman, seems to be at odds with a lot of what I read in other parts of this forum and around the web. The overwhelming spoken or unspoken paradigm is to an outsider, which I certainly am, that large quantities of money and neck breaking weight are a requirement to make modern equipment ring steel at distance that an A4 would be capable of reaching. Am I seeing things through rose colored glasses here? Is there really no comparison? Don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling those who enjoy their "big rigs": I'm not going to tell someone how to enjoy their hobby, and the more interest in marksmanship the better, but is the attitude that those bells and whistles are a necessity fair and founded?

Despite the WAY off topic replies that have been posted here, and after doing a fair bit of research, I'd have to say no, as to your specific question. The current "state of the art" of today's military sniper rifles are not a requirement to ring steel at distance. Today's rifles ARE, however, extremely well-built. They are a very strong action in an amazingly strong, stable stock, with incredible optics, and a true match-grade barrel. I thought I had my FN SPR A1 sold on here, but the deal feel through, thus I still have it, so I'll use it as an example. It IS somewhat heavier than a JRA 1903A4 I had a couple of years ago, and that is with me putting an era-type scope, Weaver KB-60 4x on it, as I never did like the baby-ish 2.5x scope that comes on these models. The action is very strong, like the JRA A4; the stock is much more dimensionally stable than the A4; the barrel is heavier than the A4, and will hold tighter groups in string-fire at longer ranges. I know, most snipers / DMR's don't shoot a lot at any one time, so yeah, the A4's lighter barrel was much nicer to haul around. Both have good triggers. The FN SPR has a much more powerful scope, with mil-dot reticule, vs a much smaller scope on the A4's. Also, the rings today are even stronger than the ones used in WWII. That being said, my rig, when I shoot FGMM 178gr, can "ring steel" at 1300 yards, and costs a fraction of what the US military's rifles cost. My point is: if you are just "ringing steel", then no, today's vastly more expensive equipment is not needed just to make a noise at distance. I would, however, submit, that today's military sniper rifles are far more capable than what sniper rifles were back in WWII, even giving the respective "states of the art" variances between the two eras. Is that work $12k+ / rifle? I don't know, but someone sure thinks so.