Can you send your form 1 in before you get your lower engraved?
Suppressors Form 1 and engraving
Yes, you should send your form 1 AND WAIT FOR APPOVAL before getting the engraving done.
I would get it engraved BEFORE you send in your Form1 just in case your engraver screws up and damages your receiver you aren't stuck with that jacked up receiver forever as an SBR.
Not arguing here since I don't know if there is an actual answer but...
Would it matter if you had your lower engraved and it didn't get approved? Wouldn't you just end up with a receiver that had your name and city/state of residence? The engraving doesn't change the status of the receiver legally, right?
Whereas, as someone pointed out above, if you send it pre-registration and the engraving gets screwed up or UPS loses the receiver at least you have just lost a receiver versus an NFA firearm if you send it after approval.
Or no?
Would it matter if you had your lower engraved and it didn't get approved? Wouldn't you just end up with a receiver that had your name and city/state of residence? The engraving doesn't change the status of the receiver legally, right?
Whereas, as someone pointed out above, if you send it pre-registration and the engraving gets screwed up or UPS loses the receiver at least you have just lost a receiver versus an NFA firearm if you send it after approval.
Or no?
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Good points. I was not sure if there was regs which stated one way or the other. I tried to find black and white answer on net before posting question. It would be a month before I could get the lower engraved, now I will just send the paperwork off and get the engraving done ASAP.
Thanks for the replies.
Thanks for the replies.
ill share my quick story i posted in another thread. ive got a 2 month wait still on my form 1 and i was going to get the name of my trust engraved before i got it back, but in that time i learned that ATF had a problem with the name of my trust on a Form 4. so, i decided to wait... but if i had engraved after sending off my Form 1, i would have had incorrect information engraved on the gun.
if you are sure you have it all perfectly done and submitted, than its your call on when you engrave it. but just remember, things can happen with the ATF examiners and it might not be correct when your Form 1 is approved.
if you are sure you have it all perfectly done and submitted, than its your call on when you engrave it. but just remember, things can happen with the ATF examiners and it might not be correct when your Form 1 is approved.
Thanks for the info Charger. I already have one form 1 and one form 3 approved so I am sure that the name is good with ATF. My concern was if it was legal to send it off before engraving was done.
You can engrave anything you want on any gun out there as long as you don't obliterate the original manufacturer markings.
Before the Form1 is approved your name/city/state are just markings, after it is approved those markings are required.
why engrave at all, when I called the ATF and asked if it wasn't necessary they said only if I plan to sell it in the future was the engraving necessary, I have had my SBR for 4 years and had an ATF agent friend look it at it and he said the same thing as long as I have the stamp and never sell it I am good
This is true of title 1 firearms only. If you build a rifle from scratch you don't legally have to even put a serial number on it unless you sell or otherwise transfer it.
On the other hand this is not true of title 2 / NFA firearms. For them the regs very clearly state that you (the maker or manufacturer) must mark it with Name, City, State, Cal, Serial and model. The serial number must be on the receiver, the other info can be on the frame, receiver or barrel but cannot be put in an area that is obstructed or covered in normal use. It must be conspicuous so you cannot put it under handguards or grips etc.
As for whether you can engrave prior to the form 1 being filed or approved it is as noted previously. You can engrave whatever you want at any time on a title 1 firearm. Once it is NFA as in short barreled rifle, suppressor, MG, DD etc than the marking regs change and you cannot alter or move them. That means if you decide to change your HK 94 pistol into an MP 5 PDW you need to alter the markings prior to registering. Weld up the HK 94 marking and re-engrave the MP5 marking before you send in the paperwork.
Details, details, details.....
I for one wouldn't engrave the lower at all. Its unnecessary and just clutters things up. Engrave the barrel if there is enough sticking out or engrave the upper. Read the regs and you will see its legal and proper. All you need to add is the name, city and state in most cases since the cal is either on the lower or upper or barrel already. The serial number must be on the receiver already and you use that for the form 1 (read the form 1 instructions). That means with a normal sized name, city and state you might use up 3/4" of space lengthwise on your barrel or upper. If you wear out the barrel you can do another. If you decide you don't want it to be an SBR anymore you don't have to explain why your info is on the lower. Barrels are cheap and so are uppers.....why screw up the good part?
Just my opinions of course based on many years of dealing with ATF and the NFA.
Frank
ATF NFA Regulations are pretty darn clear when it comes to the engraving requirements for Title2 firearms.
If your "Agent" said its not needed its one of 3 things.
A - Wasn't an ATF NFA Branch representative.
B - You didn't specify that it was an NFA item and he thought you were asking about Title1.
C - The agent needs to go back and read the regulations again.
You should NEVER listen to an "ATF Agent" for NFA guidance. Either ask IO or NFA Branch they know what they are talking about not generic ATF guys. Our previous local ATF had no idea that silencers were legal for civilians, and they were an ATF Investigator.
You must engrave any Form 1 item, there is no gray area there.
The least bad thing that would happen if caught is the ATF electro penciling your gun, not sure if they would bother with actual charges or destroying the weapon.
The actual regulation is very clear.
7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.
The least bad thing that would happen if caught is the ATF electro penciling your gun, not sure if they would bother with actual charges or destroying the weapon.
The actual regulation is very clear.
7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.
I called the ATF NFA branch again and got two conflicting answers, One said yes no matter what, the other when I called back said only if I plan to sell it. So Good god the ATF NFA branch needs a staff meeting. I went and got it engraved after 4 years of not having it, way I see it is if they can't make up their minds I better make up mine and cover my ass
remember that any advice you get from a phone call to anyone....even the damn president of the US is completely and totally useless. If you can't find it in the regs than hire a lawyer who can. Why waste time talking to people who have no reason to know all the regs you are supposed to? If you can't find it in writing don't ask the ignorant. As a matter of fact its not really defensible to ask us here. All our advice is worth exactly what you paid for it....nothing. Read the regs. It is in there pretty clear though most is not always clear. You must mark the firearm if its NFA. There isn't any allowance for homebuilt stuff because NFA doesn't allow for homebuilt under the radar guns. NFA requires quite clearly that it must be marked while title 1 of the code says firearms made by non manufacturers do not have to be marked. Are you building an NFA firearm? Yes, then mark it. Don't take the word of some NFA branch flunky because he or she isn't going to be there in court to say, " Yes, I told him he didn't need to comply with NFA regs that are found in title 2 of the USC 18." If you want defendable advice from NFA than you will have to write them a letter to which they are most likely to reply that you either need to contact Technical branch or you need to contact a lawyer because NFA branch is not the business of giving legal advice. Once you have that in hand you've got a place to start more letters. Phones are not good for legal advice and neither are we in reality. Just a place to start looking.
Don't trust us, look it up for yourself.
Frank
Don't trust us, look it up for yourself.
Frank
