FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

[Tactical30]

I was helping to clean out my great uncles basement after he passed and found a whole collection of stuff from WWI that his father was in.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">I found:</span>

1.) Lee Enfield MK III .303 Rifle (pictured)
2.) Complete WWI uniform (US)
3.) Diary from his father- stories he wrote when he was in in a P.O.W. camp.
4.) German Helmet
5.) Old pins and ranks for uniform.

From what i know the markings under the bolt handel on this one indicates:
LSA= London Small Arms
1911= Date of production
S<span style="text-decoration: underline">ht</span> LE = Short Lee Enfield
III = Mark III

This one with the cut off magazine was the original Mark III, then they made cost cuts and made the
Mark III* w/o the cut off. I would think this one is somewhat of a rare one because of the mag cut off and I heard LSA made the better built ones but thats just what I searched/googled.

The rifle was up in the rafters. If i would have never looked up in that corner with the flashlight I would have never found it. It probly been up there for the past 60+yrs.

When I held this rifle it makes you think of shit the guy must have went thru that used it.

When your holding a rifle that was used in a war 100yrs ago it makes ya think.

What do you think a collection of this type would be worth. Im just wondering but I would <span style="text-decoration: underline">never </span>sell any of it.

I know there were a ton of these rifles built but I know some of them are really valuable. I guess the markings on it make the difference, I tried to include them in the pics. I also cleaned it up the best I could but the rifling is pretty rusted but the action slides like new. They dont make like they used to! Those boys back then knew how to build rifles. Im thinking about taking it to a gunsmith and have it gone over and clean really well so I could shoot it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Here are some of the markings I found on it:</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">I would think these notches cut under the stock would be his confirmed kills maybe.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Any information on this rifle would be appreciated.</span>

 

[rman1]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Can you take a clear picture of the disk on the stock with the screw through it?

Thanks.

R.

 

[rman1]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

As far as I can tell, and I'm sure someone else will fill in the blanks, it is a MKIII, made by the London Small Arms Co. in 1911. The disk on the stock should tell us who the rilfe was issued to, regiment wise. This is all I have for now.

R.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

SWEET!
It's in great shape and what a nice piece of history you have.
Respectfully,
LG

 

[Longbow_06]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

It looks to be in damn good condition for a rifle stored away that long. Cool find !!

Lee.

 

[brent98k]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

hi

A fantastic find, in very good condition, as far as i know (i could be wrong).
its a Lee enfield mark 3 smle ( short magazine lee enfield) in .303 mark 7 rounds. made by london small arms company,
The Lee-Enfield got its name from the designer of the rifle's bolt system – James Paris Lee, and the factory in which it was designed – the Royal Small Arms Factory in Enfield.


again a very nice piece of history
take care of her

regards

brent98k

 

[swd]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Looks like a pattern 1 Mk3 with the magazine cut off. Very cool find with all the extras! IMO the pattern 1 rifles with the mag cut off are the coolest of the smle's.

 

[mackdrvr]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Holy Shit! Awesome score. Lets see some pics of the other stuff as well.

 

[patriotoutlaw]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

How appropriate on this Memorial Day. God Bless all the fighting men past and present. Congratulations on a special find, I hope that all generations to come, hold these items in reverence of those gone on before us who fought for our freedom.

 

[libertyman777]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

That's very cool. I'm a sucker for old military rifles and having one with a personal history is awesome. Good find!!

Paul

 

[whitetailnut]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

I would post it over on gunboards.com in the lee enfield forum.
Those guys are very knowledgeable with the old military surplus rifles .

I would bet the sling on that rifle is worth quite a bit.

Heck of a nice find, congrats.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

TRUE TREASURE. Tom.

 

[Tactical30]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Thanks for the info. Keep it comin!


I will get a picture taken of the disk on the stock and post it.

Im surprised the sling stayed in that good of shape for that long.

 

[Emilio]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Contact Splean here on the Hide. I know he use to collect those and could tell you about it.

 

[JRose]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Very cool rifle. Those kind of rifles are what really crank my tractor, real history n your hands there.

 

[Tactical30]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

I would like to to find a estimate on what this would be worth. any ideas.

Anyone know of any gunsmiths that would be able to totally go over this rifle (fix any problems) and clean it properly so I could feel safe to shoot it?

Do they sell the .303 ammo on the clips anymore anywhere?

 

[Queequeg]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

That must be one special attic your friend has! That rifle looks to be in very good condition considering it's nearly 100 years old!

For ammo check out Cheaper than dirt and Sportsmans guide. They frequently have surplus .303. Sometimes in clips.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Cool find.

I wouldnt take it to anyone to fix up but keep it the way it is. Its easy to de value something like that by "fixing" it. I have a couple of 303's my grandpa gave to me. Shot them a couple of times just to say i did, but...

 

[madcratebuilder]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to to find a estimate on what this would be worth. any ideas.

Anyone know of any gunsmiths that would be able to totally go over this rifle (fix any problems) and clean it properly so I could feel safe to shoot it?

Do they sell the .303 ammo on the clips anymore anywhere? </div></div>

DO NOT let anyone touch this rifle. It appears to be in very good condition, the furniture does not look dry, so it's had some BLO in the not to distant past. Check the bore and chamber. Check the head space with a BRITISH spec gauge.

There are not many smiths around that have a lot of LE knowledge, choose wisely.

The sling is very valuable, possibly as much as the rifle. The markings determine rifle value but as a family heirloom it's priceless.

SOG is getting in shipment of Greek surplus, it's good ammo. If you can find South African surplus it's non corrosive and very good stuff. If you ever consider selling this I would be very interested.

 

[E3C3H3O3]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Wow I wish I could find something like this, hope you keep it, with the family history and all. It would be a great thing to pass down the generations. I don't think it would be a good idea to have anyone screw around with it though, who cares if it shoots, it's the history of it that matters.

 

[Tactical30]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Im thinking of some how framing the other things (uniform, etc.)and hanging the rifle and helmets below it on my wall somewhere.

I decided to not let anyone screw with it and just hang it up someplace in my house and leave it how it is.

 

[Ferryman]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Hi Longrange

If you want the history, it may be worh contacting the Royal Armouries Pattern Room here in the UK or Royal College of Military Science, Shrivenham, Swindon, Wilts.

I will dig up the contact details of the Pattern Room.

It used to be at Enfield Lock, then it moved to the H&K site at Sheffield and now it is part of RO Leeds

 

[splean]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

That is a very nice find! As has been mentioned it is a SMLE No. 1 Mk III rifle. Although this particular pattern was considered the standard rifle of the British Army at the time of the First World War, more war-time variants exist today. These are the No.1 MkIII* rifles. I believe the No.1 Mk III pattern was in service for something less than ten years before the war started and the "*" designation was added. The "*" disgination indicates certain cost-cutting measures introduced during the war. Some No.1 Mk. III rifles were "upgraded" to the No. 1 Mk. III* when they found their way to armories for service.

The main difference as you pointed out was the magazine cut-off. This feature consisted of a metal slide with a thumb piece that would be slid in and out of the action. When engaged the piece would be positioned over the magazine preventing it from feeding. This allowed the soldier to single feed his rifle while keeping the ten round magazine in reserve for "rapid fire".

Another cost cutting measure was the introduction of simplified sights. If you notice your rifle's sights can be adjusted for wind and drop. The "*" rifle sights adjust for drop only. In addition your rifle actually retains the windage knob, very rare. These knobs often broke and were replaced with "*" sights. In some cases they were removed in the armories in order to upgrade the rifle.

In addition to the sight modification, a second pair of sights found on the No. 1 Mk III rifles were removed entirely on the "*" rifles. The original rifle was fitted with a set of "volley sights". This was a two piece system fitted to the left side of the rifle. The left front forearm was fitted with a disc and arm/front sight. This disc had various angles marked on it. As the front sight was adjusted its opposite end pointed to the corresponding angle. The rear volley sight was a long armed aperture sight that was raised and lowered. These sights were meant to be used against distant area targets i.e. massed troop formations. This feature is a vestage of the Victorian mindset applied to 20th century technology. These are very rarely found intact.

There might be some variation to your rifle's safety lever and "nose cap" as compared to the "*" rifles. The details escape me at the moment so I will refrain from commenting.

I remember reading something about London Small Arms (LSA) in the Ian D. Skennerton book "Lee Enfield Story". If I remember correctly LSA was the smallest of the small arms manufactures making rifles and might have been reduced to making parts during the war. I am not sure of this. The other two manufacturers were Royal Armoury Enfield and Birmingham Small Arms (BSA).

One of the previous posts made note of the brass disc inletted into the right side of the buttstock. These discs were stamped with unit designations once the rifes were issued. The information on this disc will tell you what unit it was issued to. The sling itself is rare in that it is WW1 dated. Many of these slings were not stamped at all.

This is a great find. I remember about 10-15 years ago when you could find several SMLE rifles on the rack at BIG 5 for $65-70. Some even had cut-offs. They are getting rarer and the prices have gone up considerably since then. I remember seeing a war-dated No.1 MkIII for about $250 not too long ago. I would venture to say your rifle could be worth $500 or more. It's been years since I bought my last SMLE so I could be off. Nice rifle, thanks for sharing. I hope this helps.

 

[Marchpig]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Just to add to Splean's post, here in Australia the SMLE was made by the Lithgow Small Arms factory from 1912. A nice history here- http://militaryguns.net.au/content/view/45/105/

Currently in Oz, a fair condition one that still has the original military sights can fetch upto $1200AU, "Sporterized" examples go for around $400AU.
http://usedguns.com.au/used_military_rifles.html#military_rifles

 

[kenhil2]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS




that is an incredible find, very cool piece of history

 

[Tactical30]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

thanks for all the info splean!

 

[Tactical30]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

I looked at the buttstock marking but I cant really make anything out on it.
It almost looks like a sloppy sideways "x" maybe, with one of the lines being a little thicker than othe other. I will try to get a pic of it so someone could maybe make it out.

 

[splean]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks for all the info splean!</div></div>

No worries, I'm glad I could help.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Nice find!

I have an LSA 1915 MkIII, all matching, volley sights intact, original wood - it is a great rifle and a real piece of history.

The wood on yours is in much better shape than mine!

Clean it up, shoot it, enjoy it - never forget those who had to use it anger and what they went through for us all!

 

[chris223]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

all i can say is thats a great score you got there .
i found out after my grand father died he had a 22lr but nobody knew where it went .
would love to have had that.

 

[Midodgeguy]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Very cool find. Keep it in the family!

 

[Pvt.Joker]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Beautiful rifle, and a great find and story behind it! I picked up a 1916 BSA No.1 MkIII* in pretty decent shape recently. The wood had been polyurethane coated some time back, but once that was stripped gently back to the original wood and treated, it came out pretty nice. I had to replace the unit disk as it was missing and the rest of the rifle's bluing was about like yours- a little bit of rust, but not too bad. I used Gunzilla on it and most of it cleaned right up. But on the bright side, it was a numbers-matching rifle (even the stock wood, once I cleaned the goo off it) so that was good. I haven't gotten a chance to go shoot it yet, but I've got a couple of boxes of Hotshot and Privi Partisan ammo for it and added a new repro sling since these photos (and moved the sling back to the right place). It's got a great bore, so I'm hoping it will be a good shooter. Any idea what the "*" version like this would be worth?

(You can see the gawd-awful finish it came with in these last two pictures)

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Pvt.Joker, not sure what values are like in the US but my MkIII cost me £700 in the UK 18 months ago. But that is in original condition.

Here refinished rifles tend not to be as desirable to collectors so don't get the best prices.

If you want to take a look at an online dealer (such as gunbroker.co.uk) or the small specialist retailers (like www.thamesvalleyguns.co.uk or www.efdrifles.com) you'll find all models and variants of Enfield popping up so it should give you a good feel for prices (albeit UK ones!).

EFD currently have a couple of Lithgow MkIII* - a 1921 rifle at £499, and a 1917 at £450. Both have had some restoration/refurbishment.

Generally MkIII variants and No.5 Carbines command higher prices than No4 rifles (unless it is the No4T where fakes can get around £2500 and good original rifles anywhere from £3,750 upwards depending on condition/originality and whether they have the transit chest etc.)

 

[Pvt.Joker]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Also a nice looking rifle. I don't know that the pricing there and here will correlate that much, due to the different demands, laws, markets, etc. but thanks for the ideas. And yes, over here an unaltered original will also typically go for much more (with some exceptions) but it was what it was when I got it so I made the best of the situation.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Hope I didn't sound like I was knocking your rifle...that's the last thing on my mind. It looks great - give me a choice between a well restored classic rifle and a knackered original and my choice would be clear any day!

 

[Pvt.Joker]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hope I didn't sound like I was knocking your rifle...that's the last thing on my mind. It looks great - give me a choice between a well restored classic rifle and a knackered original and my choice would be clear any day! </div></div>

No; not at all and didn't take it that way. Simple truth is that you are right- an original unmolested example is going to be worth more than a restored rifle. In the case of what I got, it was just a matter of a clean restored rifle being worth more than a pimp-shined plastic-looking one. WHY the previous owner did it- who knows? Must have seemed like the thing to do at the time, I suppose. Oh well; such is life.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: FOUND - OLD Rifle from WWI . PICS

Know what you mean...my Mauser 98k was like that when it's last owner let it go (including bizarre tiger-striped plasti-wood stock!!).....glad to say that Ed at Miltech saved it!!