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GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

O

Onemoretime

Gunny Sergeant
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 1, 2007
1,330
11
San Diego, CA
#1
In the latest issue of Surefire/Guns&Ammo's "Combat Tactics" there is an article about a couple rifles GAP had built. One of these rifles was said to be a 16.5" Bartlein barreled .308 that the author shot over a chrono with a suppressor attached. He claims the rifle was sending Black Hills 175gr match ammo down range at 2625fps.

Lowlight posted this for velocity from his Gladius
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Black Hills 175gr Average Velocity = 2649.1 for one box, and 2663fps for another...
</div></div>

Now, I don't know how calibrated my eyes are but, in the pictures the barrel doesn't look much different, and actually looks a bit longer then the Gladius.

But, just in case my eyes are jacked up and it's not a severe typo in the magazine, would the suppressor negate the velocity lost from 1.5 - 2 inches less barrel?

If you haven't seen it I'll see if I can post some pictures.
 
#2
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

Top rifle is the one in question.

cimg18051.jpg


LL's Gladius

Gladius7.jpg
 
#4
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rem700p</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe the difference is in the length of the stocks forends? That's what it looks like to me. </div></div>

Hmmm, not to me. Could be my eyes. Maybe George can chime in. Lets say it is correct. Would the suppressor add back the velocity lost in a couple of inches?
 
#5
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

Based on the stock in that pic it dosen't look like a 16.5" barrel. It's either a typo or they used another rifle for the pic in the article. Both not uncommon for Guns & Ammo magazine.

Two things, Bartlein barrel can be had with tight bores which will increase velocity, and yes with some cans you can also see a bump in velocity as well.

With my 18.5" Bartlein tight bore barrel I was getting on average for BH 175 for 10 shots was 2537.9 FPS without a suppressor.

Even with a tight bore Bartlein and a can I would question the velocity they are quoting out of a 16.5" barrel, with or without a can attached. But hey I can't claim I have seen everything yet.


 
#6
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

That clearly looks 16.5" from the picture, especially if the OD one is 18.5"... so I don't that.

Black Hills did make a faster load for us, I know I tested it as well as many others and it was much faster than the standard Black Hills Loading. I like it a lot.

Now, as far as an Average being 2650fps from a 16.5" barrel, even a tight bore Bartlein, sounds a bit optimistic, I would say closer to 2550fps because my loads were just over 2600fps for the Gladius. Closer to 2625fps, but I don't remember 100% as my numbers are in TX. You could alway chalk it up to a bad Chronograph, the real test would be his real world dope as I know what the Gladius is at 1000 yards or less, and if he is truly going 2650fps, he would be using less dope than I am.

That said, the merits of going shorter are proving, at least for me, to be very positive. The accuracy holds strong and the velocity is acceptable, although I understand I am not trying to set the 1000 yard world on fire with it, but the handiness of the rifle and the ability to effective work at 1000 if necessary can't be overstated. I can routinely hit well at distance, especially the 800m and in, its a house of fire there. 1000 yards is consistent, but requires a lot of shooter behind the rifle.
 
#7
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

Frank your Gladius barrel looks shorter then the one in the pic.

If that rifle has a 16.5" barrel then that pic is very deceiving, and that bottom rifle looks longer then 18" as well, especially since part of that barrel is covered by the Surefire adapter.
 
#9
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

That OD gun is not 18.5". There is clearly more than 2" difference between the OD Manners stocked rifle and the MCM A1/3 stocked rifle. Those look 20" and 24" respectively and would explain the velocity values.
 
#10
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

Using my very technical photoshop skills, assuming each red line is about 3 1/16" based on the AI mag....and knowing I started the first red line a little to far forward, my educated guess is closer to 18" than 16"

6gez2o.jpg
 
#11
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

The bottom rifle is a 26" 300wm or so the article says. The rifle in the A1-3 is supposed to be 16.5".

My reason for posting this was because some have been asking about performance from rifles even shorter then 18" and this article was giving velocities that mirrored what LL said his Gladius was getting.

I was thinking either the suppressor made up for the loss or something was fishy. Then I started comparing the pics to the Gladius pics.
 
#12
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using my very technical photoshop skills, assuming each red line is about 3 1/16" based on the AI mag....and knowing I started the first red line a little to far forward, my educated guess is closer to 18" than 16"

6gez2o.jpg
</div></div>

Nice job Jason but remember there is a surefire QD mount under there as well. Looks like maybe 20" to me.... using your "very technical photoshop skills". Hehe.
 
#14
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is a 762K model so the break does not go back over the barrel like Frank's Gladius Rifle. The OD has a break for 762SS. </div></div>

The article says 762FAK, I don't know what that means but...

Is it like this?
November2009suppressorpics051.jpg
 
#17
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

Thats a K model suppressor adaptor, so the can does not come back over the barrel but about an inch. Barrel is 16.5 from the lug so its really a 17.5 " barrel. That author shoots in the California high desert so in warm dry air its possible he is getting exactly the velocity he claims.

Some of the work Lowlight and others have been doing with 18" and shorter barrels has alot of interest spiked in these handy short rifles. The "SH Gladius" is being added to the GA Precision line as a production rifle like the Crusader and the Hospitaler. The Website should be updated with it soon. There will be one at Shot as well. Every rifle sold benifits the Hide.
 
#19
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats a K model suppressor adaptor, so the can does not come back over the barrel but about an inch. Barrel is 16.5 from the lug so its really a 17.5 " barrel. That author shoots in the California high desert so in warm dry air its possible he is getting exactly the velocity he claims.

Some of the work Lowlight and others have been doing with 18" and shorter barrels has alot of interest spiked in these handy short rifles. The "SH Gladius" is being added to the GA Precision line as a production rifle like the Crusader and the Hospitaler. The Website should be updated with it soon. There will be one at Shot as well. Every rifle sold benifits the Hide. </div></div>

George,
Is the spec Gladius going to be built on the Gen 2 Templar action or a trued 700?

Thanks,
Jack
 
#22
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

I have two 16.0in rifles that are from the port hole of the action. one of them shoots the same speed as three of my 25in barrles all at the same temp. I think some bbls are faster than others. Atleaset in my cased they are. I am just woundering if that has something to do with it????.
 
#24
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GHOSTRECON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have two 16.0in rifles that are from the port hole of the action. one of them shoots the same speed as three of my 25in barrles all at the same temp. I think some bbls are faster than others. Atleaset in my cased they are. I am just woundering if that has something to do with it????. </div></div>

Yes it does.
 
#25
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

What barrels are faster then? I've heard that Bartlein barrels are one of the faster ones because of some sort of "tight bore".

Can someone explain this to me in case I rebarrel to a 16.5".

I was origanally thinking Kreiger,but now I just got thrown a curveball!!

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh
 
#26
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Walsh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What barrels are faster then? I've heard that Bartlein barrels are one of the faster ones because of some sort of "tight bore".

Can someone explain this to me in case I rebarrel to a 16.5".

I was origanally thinking Kreiger,but now I just got thrown a curveball!!

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh </div></div>

Just what it means. Tight bore as in a .308 for example. Normal barrel specs would be .300 - .308 or there bouts. Tight bore would be .298 or .299 - .306 or .307.

There can be variations but you get the picture.

Other factors like cut vs. button barrels, lapped barrels vs. non-lapped barrels. How many times a barrel is lapped during the manufacturing process. What type of chamber is cut. Will all play a part into how fast or slow a barrel might be
 
#27
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Walsh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What barrels are faster then? I've heard that Bartlein barrels are one of the faster ones because of some sort of "tight bore".

Can someone explain this to me in case I rebarrel to a 16.5".

I was origanally thinking Kreiger,but now I just got thrown a curveball!!

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh </div></div>

Kreiger does tight bores as well I believe. The reason tight bores are faster is because it creates a tighter seal and thus more pressure and thus higher velocity. Anything manufactured has tolerances even if there .0000002 that is still a tolerance so no two are exactly the same. The tighter the tolerance the more consistent from one to another. Two factory barrels can have a pretty big difference in performance from one to the other. My 20" LTR barrel is very slow compared to others but it shoots well. All things being equal a tight bore is faster than a loose one and a tight girl is....
 
#28
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

I just got one back from George and had it out on the chrono yesterday and here's where things went. I'm in Tucson and I think about 2250 is a good elev, we had 65 degrees yesterday.

DSCN0237.jpg


I had three loads with me from some other guns that worked so I tried them

First is my Dillon loaded battle load....

168 Nosler CC BTHP
40.4 AA2230
WLR
LC Brass

Two four shot strings

AVG 2598 and 2597
SD 10 Both times
ES 22 Both times

Second was what I thought would be a goto load, but unfortunately, showed some signs of bolt lift, I'll have to drop a couple tenths. I have no idea why, it runs in every other gun I own.



43.0 Varget
175 Nosler CC BTHP
Lap brass
210M

AVG 2551
ES29
SD14

And lastly my goto 168 load that has kept me happy for years now

42.8 RL15
168 SMK
210M or BR2, doesn't matter whatever is available
FCGMM Brass

AVG 2615
SD11
ES25

My barrel is a Broughton, 95 Palma chamber I don't know if it was something special or not, but it looks like from where I'm from this thing is gonna be a hammer with some additional work.

sean

 
#29
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hofhine1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got one back from George and had it out on the chrono yesterday and here's where things went. I'm in Tucson and I think about 2250 is a good elev, we had 65 degrees yesterday.

DSCN0237.jpg


I had three loads with me from some other guns that worked so I tried them

First is my Dillon loaded battle load....

168 Nosler CC BTHP
40.4 AA2230
WLR
LC Brass

Two four shot strings

AVG 2598 and 2597
SD 10 Both times
ES 22 Both times

Second was what I thought would be a goto load, but unfortunately, showed some signs of bolt lift, I'll have to drop a couple tenths. I have no idea why, it runs in every other gun I own.



43.0 Varget
175 Nosler CC BTHP
Lap brass
210M

AVG 2551
ES29
SD14

And lastly my goto 168 load that has kept me happy for years now

42.8 RL15
168 SMK
210M or BR2, doesn't matter whatever is available
FCGMM Brass

AVG 2615
SD11
ES25

My barrel is a Broughton, 95 Palma chamber I don't know if it was something special or not, but it looks like from where I'm from this thing is gonna be a hammer with some additional work.

sean

</div></div>

Good info.

Maybe you could run so Black Hills 175gr match through her so we get a comparison?

We have data from LL's Gladius with the BH 175 and the article stated that's what they were using.

Maybe you could get your hands on some?
 
#30
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

I'm out of town for a couple weeks, but when I get back I'll hunt some down, all I have right now is some of the old school BH175 match that is moly, and I don't want to run that in this barrel.

I'll also post some results with some LC 118LR I have and some of the Isreali M852 I found.

I think this will be my, (and alot more folks') goto rifle in the near future.

sean
 
#34
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

my .299/.308 bartlein barrel finished at 18.5" oal took 34 minutes from a 100 yard zero to 1000 yards with a 155 sierra 2156 today. i would guess the temp was high 40's, the elevation is around 250 feet and it was borderline being foggy. my load was virgin lapua brass, 155 sierra 2156, 215m, 45.2 h4895. someone with a standard bore or longer barrel length running a similar load can be the judge if the tight bore/short barrel really makes a difference. i'm thinking it does.
 
#36
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

Sorry about that, I know this was started as a question on the 16.5, but mine is a true 18 incher, as for the twist, it is an 11 twist 5C...

Obviously your results may vary.

sean
 
#37
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

I am running factory 168gr A-max Hornady TAP though a PSS cut to 16 inches and getting about 2529 fps with the suppressor attached.

This is a mild load though. Out of my 24" AIAE is clocks about 2697 fps.
 
#38
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

i have a rem 700 in .308 with a shilen select match barrel (1-12 twist)@ 23 inches. Sierra 168 hpbt are going 2880fps with 46 gr varget. Hodgdon claims it at 2731 on the front of the can.
 
#39
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Recoil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sierra 168 hpbt are going 2880fps with 46 gr varget.</div></div>

Have you tried to confirm this with another chrono, or some actual dope?
 
#40
Re:GAP 16.5" .308 in Combat Tactics Mag?

13MOA @ 600YD. 36MOA @ 1000YD IN SOUTH TEXAS. I DIDNT BELIEVE IT EITHER. THE CHRONO CHECKED OUT WITH OTHER LOADS AND RIFLES THAT HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY CHRONOED. STILL HAVENT TRIED ANOTHER CHRONO. WILL LET U KNOW WHEN I DO.
 
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