Gas Guns in Tac matches?

[ReaperDriver]

How prevelent are gas guns becoming in Tac matches? It seems that with the advent of all these accurate .308 gas guns like the Larue OBR, LMT, POF, M110, AR-10s, etc - that they would be cleaning up in Tac matches around the country. At least in the few matches I've shot in, rapid fire timed shooting at medium ranges (500m or less) was one of the main point getter.

Is anyone winning matches with one of these new .308 gas guns? Or even with a 5.56 SPR?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

People were using Gas guns to great effect for a while, hell even back to the early 2000s there were guys shooting 260 gassers. Shannon Kay did very well with one.

Also I believe Nomad won a match 2 weeks ago with a 6.5 Creedmoor POF...

You can do it, but you have to be 3X the driver as the bolt gun guy.

The stages you might gain in are not enough to move the field towards one. Its like guys who are building 1000 yard guns for tactical matches who may only shoot 10 rounds to 1000 if that... there still maybe 2500 other points besides the 100 or 200 you might gain focusing on that distance.

Matches are balancing act... there is no magic bullet and there is no one gun solution, if there was, the match was designed very well.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

I feel that the ability to keep on the glass and follow up with instant dope more than makes up for their shortcomings in a lot of scenarios.
The are driven differently so you may do worse at first.
When time is a factor (especially when you need to act as your own spotter) they really excel.

 

[Oodin]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the match was designed very well.</div></div>

Do you mean poorly? As in, if there's one rifle that'll do every event in your match you've done a bad job of setting up your match?

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel that the ability to keep on the glass and follow up with instant dope more than makes up for their shortcomings in a lot of scenarios.
The are driven differently so you may do worse at first.
When time is a factor (especially when you need to act as your own spotter) they really excel. </div></div>

This is kinda where I was going with this. Granted in my extremely limited experience shooting in TAC matches, the couple I've seen were moderate range events with an emphasis on timed rapid fire drills often from odd positions (barricade, windows, sitting, etc) rather than the pure 1-shot precision at long range type thing. That seems like the ideal event for a semi-auto gun yet I've not seen one shoot yet.

I guess my real question is are the current crop of gas guns accurate enough to compete with the bolt guns assuming the driver is up to the task? As the previous poster said, the ability to rapidly follow on shots and see your hits and shift to new targets would appear to make the auto a tac match winner in all but the really long range 600-1000 yd events. I just wonder why you don't see them much in current matches.

 

[Blaster4]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

every match is different. imagine a golf bag...you use what the match is set up for. if you get the course of fire thats even better...if its short and the targets are big then semi can do very well...if its long and windy...then run the bolt gun whizbang cartridge.

guys are still hitting 70%+ on movers with manual actions so its not like a lot of points are given up in rapids. the super accurate gasser that wins a whole season full of matches (let alone top tens)is still in development...hopefully. maybe some day...but for now I think semi autos are for spotters...security for the sniper(bolt gun)...that being said I hope to have a semi-auto configuration up by the end of the year...lol.

Respectfully,

--KJ

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel that the ability to keep on the glass and follow up with instant dope more than makes up for their shortcomings in a lot of scenarios.
The are driven differently so you may do worse at first.
When time is a factor (especially when you need to act as your own spotter) they really excel. </div></div>

This is kinda where I was going with this. Granted in my extremely limited experience shooting in TAC matches, the couple I've seen were moderate range events with an emphasis on timed rapid fire drills often from odd positions (barricade, windows, sitting, etc) rather than the pure 1-shot precision at long range type thing. That seems like the ideal event for a semi-auto gun yet I've not seen one shoot yet.

I guess my real question is are the current crop of gas guns accurate enough to compete with the bolt guns assuming the driver is up to the task? As the previous poster said, the ability to rapidly follow on shots and see your hits and shift to new targets would appear to make the auto a tac match winner in all but the really long range 600-1000 yd events. I just wonder why you don't see them much in current matches. </div></div>

YES

I have fairly limited experience in tactical type shooting, but what I've learned so far is that the autos are king for a lot of disciplines IMO.
My first match had 18" x 30" silhouettes, that started around 850 yards, that needed to be engaged from several locations.
My rifle was an 18.5" AR10 style rifle in 308.
I really cleaned up on that stage, so much so that I later on ran out of ammunition and couldn't finish the very last portion of the match and I still managed to take second (out of about 35 shooters) because the 850 yard portion gave so many others problems.
I still don't understand the scoring system though, but I shoot for fun and don't worry about such things.

In all honesty, I feel that I would've done almost as well with a bolt gun as I had a few tricks to get on target that others didn't know about (the targets were surrounded by brush that obscured observing impacts), but the auto was easy to run with, easy to get stable, I know this platform, and memorizing hits in the retical makes favoring a snap.

Once I got the wind, other ballistically superior rifles had little advantage on me. I got off most of my shots in the same wind condition which is a huge advantage.

All in all:
just imagine how you would like to accomplish the requirements, imagine the equipment you'd need to do this and how you'd use it, attempt to put it into practice, and see how you do.

 

[ALMAORFE]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

Reaper, I agree with LL that the ability of the driver really comes into play. If one can't drive the gas gun properly the advantages go out the window and they bring themselves disadvantages. However I know you can drive one well so I would consider it if I were you. Just not 5.56. In the little breeze we had the morning 308Sako said he was holding a good half mil of wind at 200 meters with the 5.56. If it's dead calm maybe but it's never dead calm and here in vegas it's dead calm as often as it snows you know. well those are my $.02.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

some matches are won 300yd and in, others do favor the long game or ukd offerings, which demure to the bolt gun in my opinion.....really all depends on the the person driving the weapon.
Nomad spanked the oregon match....but him being as salty as he is ...he could have done it with a crossman air rifle.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

If you can't stay on target with a bolt gun to spot your own shots, what makes a person think they can do it with a gasser any better... if their fundamentals are to the degree where you are coming off the gun to run the bolt, chances are, you'll not shoot a gasser any better. Most cannot shoot a gasser as well as a bolt in terms of precision.

We run two of the biggest tactical matches in the country and see it all. We try to mix up the course of fire so no one system will have an decided advantage over another. When people think they are going to bring a gas gun to "command' the mover stage they usually just end up just missing faster. there is no reason why a person can' t complete any stage with a manual bolt. The timings are designed to work that way, and yes I have seen people shoot faster with a gasser, it didn't gain them anything in doing so because the points aren't given for speed, they are given for hits. Usually where speed counts, the person is moving and the gun has to be made safe to move.

We do a couple of run and guns, and because we have people at the matches we don't know, we make the gas gun guys, lock the bolt to the rear. So they lose a round at every station, because they have to lock the bolt back. The bolt gunners can just leave the bolt back and up. It's a safety issue because of the movement and it works against most gassers.

That said, you can do as well as any one else, but I guarantee if you think you want to use a gasser for a speed advantage you are wrong. It just doesn't work that way.

And... yes I meant "wasn't" designed very well.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

I feel as though gas guns recoil softer (for their caliber) and it seems easier to get back into the glass to gather dope.
A lot of this probably has to do with me being confident with what I know.
They are more finicky to get accuracy out of, but an honest 1 MOA all the way out is very attainable.
In 260 REM, out of the same platform, the ballistics improve to the point that 1200 yards is a reasonable stretch (depending on the conditions).
All shooting seems to involve some form of compromise, but I feel that gas guns can have a lot to offer.

I am very inexperienced with tactical competition shooting, so I still have many lessons to learn (most the hard way I'm sure).
My early success probably had more to do with the general inexperience of many of my fellow competitors than my shooting platform.
I hope to participate in more tac matches, where me and my 260 autoloader will be put to the test.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel as though gas guns recoil softer (for their caliber) and it seems easier to get back into the glass to gather dope.</div></div>

There is a new invention out there, it's sure to catch on with tactical shooters it's called a, <span style="font-weight: bold">"muzzle brake" </span> and it reduces the recoil of the rifle down to nearly nothing, in fact some people even go a step further and use this tube called a Suppressor. It <span style="font-weight: bold">"suppresses"</span> the sound and recoil making the larger calibers a joy to shoot.

As an FYI, "Jim" was using an 260 Gasser at ASC back in 2002 as well Shannon K also used one so the idea of a 260 Gasser is not new. So what you are saying is not foreign to anyone.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

Shannon took 1st place a couple times once with a 260 gasser and once with a 308 at the Badger match.

I shot a Gasser (6 mm Grendal slinging berger 105's) at the Cup one year and if I would have shot as good the first day as I did the second I would have won with it.

Flounder was in 1st place after the first day of the cup in 09 with a 260 Gasser.

I really think the only downside for the Gas Guns is unloading them (making them safe) between stages on the Run and Gun courses. It really sucked ass running the Cup Pit Run and gun slinging out live rounds and pulling out mags and reinserting them, I know its all for saftey but it blows and kinda takes the Gas Gun advantage away as Frank already mentioned.

I will probably run another match with the Gas Gun and try to stay more consistant.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel as though gas guns recoil softer (for their caliber) and it seems easier to get back into the glass to gather dope.</div></div>

There is a new invention out there, it's sure to catch on with tactical shooters it's called a, <span style="font-weight: bold">"muzzle brake" </span> and it reduces the recoil of the rifle down to nearly nothing, in fact some people even go a step further and use this tube called a Suppressor. It <span style="font-weight: bold">"suppresses"</span> the sound and recoil making the larger calibers a joy to shoot.

As an FYI, "Jim" was using an 260 Gasser at ASC back in 2002 as well Shannon K also used one so the idea of a 260 Gasser is not new. So what you are saying is not foreign to anyone. </div></div>


I never claimed to be novel, just sharing my experience.

My 260 wears a break and I can't have a suppressor in Minneapolis (but I would).
I was just responding to the topic with my experience and opinions.
Didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way.

The one thing that really sucks about knowing everything is that you can't learn anything new.
I'm still learning, and hopefully always will be.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

Lowlight, good words and as always I appreciate your insight. I guess the main reason I posted the question in the 1st place was to see if the Tac match world was following in the footsteps of the Army Sniper corps and migrating slowly towards gas guns because of their better rate of fire and ability to rapidly engage multiple targets. Again in my brief experience with my local matches, numerous stages were 10 shot timed events engaging multiple targets at multiple ranges, all 500m or less. It just seems that's where a Gasser would shine over a bolt gun IMHO. I totally get that its "horses for courses" and each type gun will have its strengths and weaknesses.

Anyway LL, you mention that its "harder to drive a gas gun than a bolt".... can you expand on that notion? Is it just because of the inherent accuracy of a bolt over a gasser that makes the difference, or is there something else about the gas gun that makes it "harder" to drive? Thanks

 

[Blaster4]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

I think the way to go would be to find a cartridge that can work in an AR15 frame over the AR10 frame...6mmAR is one I think has possibilities.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

There are several pages to this thread, but you may find it informative with respect to your question:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1820544&page=1

 

[pshell]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but for now I think semi autos are for spotters...security for the sniper(bolt gun)...that being said I hope to have a semi-auto configuration up by the end of the year...lol.

Respectfully,

--KJ

</div></div>

KJ, snipers are carrying semi autos. A semi-auto is dual role capable. S/O's need to get to their position. If both guys have a semi, it makes life easier. I know the shooter could take his M-4 with him, but why if his SR or M-110 can fill the bill. You can do anything an M-4 will do with a 110. You just need a little more room.
M-110's are every bit as accurate as an M-24. Both weapons are limited by the ammo shot through them. I'm speaking from personal experience. I've shot my hand loads through both, and there is a difference. M118LR is okay, but there is better stuff out there. Corbon's 175gr load for instance. The days of the ultra accurate semi are here and have been here for a while. It just took a while for people to get used to the notion.

 

[superde]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

KJ probably knows what is going on out there due to previous and current occupations.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superde</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KJ probably knows what is going on out there due to previous and current occupations.</div></div>

Superde, pshell is active in the game and knows of what he speaks...

 

[Pat M]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

Single or stationary position, a good bolt gun
Multiple targets or changing shooting positions a good gas gun

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

During some testing on M118LR that I was involved in, one thing that seemed to be holding back the full potential of the ammunition was the liberal neck sealant that is applied to keep out moisture.
When this was cleaned off the neck, and projectile, (neck tension restored) this ammunition really started to group well.
A PITA yes, but it answered some questions regarding the ammunition's potential and quirks.

I believe that autos will become more and more prevalent in roles that were previously the sole domain of the bolt gun.
I'm no stranger to being wrong, but time will tell.

 

[weaver126]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I believe that autos will become more and more prevalent in roles that were previously the sole domain of the bolt gun.
</div></div>

and thats what knights armco thinks too.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

I plan on shooting a gas gun in .243. The biggest issue i see with gas guns is learning how to drive them.

 

[superde]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superde</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KJ probably knows what is going on out there due to previous and current occupations.</div></div>

Superde, pshell is active in the game and knows of what he speaks... </div></div>

Understood.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel as though gas guns recoil softer (for their caliber) and it seems easier to get back into the glass to gather dope.</div></div>

There is a new invention out there, it's sure to catch on with tactical shooters it's called a, <span style="font-weight: bold">"muzzle brake" </span> and it reduces the recoil of the rifle down to nearly nothing, in fact some people even go a step further and use this tube called a Suppressor. It <span style="font-weight: bold">"suppresses"</span> the sound and recoil making the larger calibers a joy to shoot.

</div></div>

LL, I know brakes are the "in vogue" thing at tac matches these days and its indisputable that they work to allow you to stay on target easier and have more rapid follow on shots. Why then, given these advantages, do you not see brakes on M24's in the field?

 

[Blaster4]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

PShell...I wasn't Army...Never used a M24. I was on the Marine side...and admittedly ten years ago. I would however take an old M40A1 over a M24 or a M110 any day for a Rifle Competition. I haven't heard anything that made me feel warm and fuzzy about the M110 and most of that was from LL himself.

That being said, I would have killed for a .308 semi to use as a Spotter. We didn't have such a thing back then...or a Carbine.

We are mixing Military/Combat accuracy and Tactical Competition accuracy. These are two very different requirements. Our M40A1's only had to make a 1MOA standard...to compete your rifle better be at least .5MOA. Minute of body or 1MOA isn't going to score you any points on a Rifle's Only Dot drill...and there goes almost half your points for the match.

I've been shooting these matches since 2005 and Semi Autos and Savage(hahaha) rifles have never been a threat...especially in .308Win. Recently there have been some new cartridges in the gas guns which has helped. But you have to take other factors into consideration not just ShooterX won this match with a semi...what was the COF...What was the skill level of the other shooters...how far out did they shoot...how bad was the wind...is ShooterX winning matches all over the country with that gas gun? Two shooters that win a match with a semi is hardly a shift in the trend...especially since the two mentioned were neither .308 or 5.56

The OP asked if these new semi-autos in .308 or 5.56 are prevalent in tactical matches. The answer is no. Not at Rifle's Only, not at ASC, obviously not at NorCal, not at Terry Cross' match, not at Scott Milk's match in AZ...That's coast to Coast with some in the middle. I would consider 10% of the field nowhere close to prevalent and semi-autos (even in different calibers)don't reach that level at these competitions listed.

LL said it was a balancing act...this is true...you bring what you think will serve you the best. Matches have evolved and the equipment has to catch up. It use to be that matches were won with the points you scored past 800 yards...competition guns were built accordingly...now matches are won with the points you make under 500 yards. So the question has to be asked...have semi-autos made such an advance that they are competitive...or have the matches changed to the point that allow them to be competitive. My guess is it's a little of both.

At this point there is nothing I have seen in a 308 or 556 semi that I would compete with. That changes when the use is for combat and the logistical restrictions...in that case...yes I have seen some real improvements.

Respectfully,

--KJ

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

In reference to the M24 and muzzle brakes.

Because the M24 is 30 yrs old, and when these systems are upgraded they are given suppressors. Larger calibers do in fact have muzzle brakes in some cases as well as there are plenty of foreign sniper rifles with them.

Sorry to say there is nothing new or innovative with the m24 it's far from State of the Art or something I would consider a standard I would adhere too. We've progressed a little since 1982, and unfortunately the Army doesn't always move in a logical ways.

There are a lot better sniper rifles out there than the M24, does it work sure, but that doesn't make it good, just capable.

 

[Graham]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

If you know how to properly work a bolt you are not at a disadvantage against a semi-auto at a match. Follow-through is always necessary, so having to hold the trigger back and delaying the re-set for precision work evens-up the speed somewhat. One advantage to a semi is not having to break and re-set your grip, so when rythm is important - for movers and otherwise - it's a different kind of rythm that you need to get used to (if that makes any sense). There are also advantages to shooting a semi offhand, but again only if you are used to doing that, and even so you don't gain anything over a guy who knows his bolt-gun.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PShell...I wasn't Army...Never used a M24. I was on the Marine side...and admittedly ten years ago. I would however take an old M40A1 over a M24 or a M110 any day for a Rifle Competition. I haven't heard anything that made me feel warm and fuzzy about the M110 and most of that was from LL himself.

That being said, I would have killed for a .308 semi to use as a Spotter. We didn't have such a thing back then...or a Carbine.

We are mixing Military/Combat accuracy and Tactical Competition accuracy. These are two very different requirements. Our M40A1's only had to make a 1MOA standard...to compete your rifle better be at least .5MOA. Minute of body or 1MOA isn't going to score you any points on a Rifle's Only Dot drill...and there goes almost half your points for the match.

I've been shooting these matches since 2005 and Semi Autos and Savage(hahaha) rifles have never been a threat...especially in .308Win. Recently there have been some new cartridges in the gas guns which has helped. But you have to take other factors into consideration not just ShooterX won this match with a semi...what was the COF...What was the skill level of the other shooters...how far out did they shoot...how bad was the wind...is ShooterX winning matches all over the country with that gas gun? Two shooters that win a match with a semi is hardly a shift in the trend...especially since the two mentioned were neither .308 or 5.56

The OP asked if these new semi-autos in .308 or 5.56 are prevalent in tactical matches. The answer is no. Not at Rifle's Only, not at ASC, obviously not at NorCal, not at Terry Cross' match, not at Scott Milk's match in AZ...That's coast to Coast with some in the middle. I would consider 10% of the field nowhere close to prevalent and semi-autos (even in different calibers)don't reach that level at these competitions listed.

LL said it was a balancing act...this is true...you bring what you think will serve you the best. Matches have evolved and the equipment has to catch up. It use to be that matches were won with the points you scored past 800 yards...competition guns were built accordingly...now matches are won with the points you make under 500 yards. So the question has to be asked...have semi-autos made such an advance that they are competitive...or have the matches changed to the point that allow them to be competitive. My guess is it's a little of both.

At this point there is nothing I have seen in a 308 or 556 semi that I would compete with. That changes when the use is for combat and the logistical restrictions...in that case...yes I have seen some real improvements.

Respectfully,

--KJ

</div></div>

KJ, thanks. Best answer yet. My intent was never to open up the combat can of worms or try to compare the disciplines. I was asking about tac matches only. And as you said, and in my limited exposure with matches, it seems to point to many of the points being gained at shorter range with fairly rapid shot COF and many "odd shooting position" type of stages. That seems to point to a semi as long as you know how to drive it.

I AM amazed however at the shooters using bolts that clean these stages. It amazing to me how quickly they can cycle the bolt and stay on target. I'll be the 1st to admit that I truly suck at rapid fire with a bolt gun. And my light-weight, non-braked factory SPS-T doesn't help when competing with $3K+ custom 20Lb braked .260 and 6mm's. But regardless of the rifles I've seen these guys using, I'm nowhere near their level of skill. I was just wondering out load if a decently accurate semi would help a bit on these shorter range, rapid shot COFs.

edit: and I wasn't necessarily asking whether semis were "winning" matches around the country. Just whether they were "showing up" more in matches?

 

[chainring]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

Very interesting. I got a long way to go, 'cause I don't know what I don't know, yet. "Driving" a rifle? I need to sign up for a Rifles Only class. Do they have a "Shooting boom sticks for guys who have nice gear but don't know how to shoot" class?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Gas Guns in Tac matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very interesting. I got a long way to go, 'cause I don't know what I don't know, yet. "Driving" a rifle? I need to sign up for a Rifles Only class. <span style="font-weight: bold">Do they have a "Shooting boom sticks for guys who have nice gear but don't know how to shoot" class?

</span></div></div>

That is most of them... at least most of the civilian classes.