Getting Started Out

[jcslone]

After having been an AR-fanboy for quite some time now I've decided (with the wife's blessing) to begin my foray into long distance/precision shooting. As of now I only own a Glock 19 Gen 4 (sold my M&P 15 ORC foolishly a couple years back) so I'm aware of the start up costs associated with this hobby.

A little background on me...I've been a Marine 0311 Rifleman for the past 5 1/2 years with qualification scores ranging from Marksman to Expert. I most recently achieved my Expert rating under the mentorship and tutelage of one of my unit's Scout Snipers who helped me correct a number of deficiencies ranging from my bone support, trigger control, and estimating windage holdovers with the M4 RCO. It was with his guidance that I massively improved both my Known Distance qualification score as well as my Combat Marksmanship qualification scores. I'm pleased to say that at the 500 yard line I was 15/15 hits in the black. I'd like to think I have a decent understanding and application of my shooting fundamentals but I also know for sure that I can use improvement and I'm completely open to advice and tutorship.

While my knowledge of the AR platform and it's employment and components is extensive I'm pretty much brand new to bolt action rifles and everything that goes into them as well as long distance shooting with optics. I've only used a scoped bolt action rifle a handful of times and I know I have much to learn.

So that all being said, here's my game plan right now...

Step 1: Purchase a .22LR or .223 rifle (bolt action preferrably) and use that to master my basic fundamentals using iron sights. (I haven't used irons since Recruit Training in 2007). Shoot prolifically but with purpose. Call and record all my shots, weather conditions, changes to my shooting position, how I controlled the trigger, etc.

Step 2: Purchase a base model .308 bolt action rifle, likely a Rem700 or equivalent, top it with a FFP optic and expand my training from there. Drill down on progressively smaller and farther targets, not increasing distance until I am highly consistent at a given range and target size. I'm stationed in 29 Palms, CA and the local gun club has a pretty decent range that goes out to 1000 yards from what I remember (though I honestly don't expect to shoot that far anytime soon). They do have monthly competitions that I would eventually like to participate in.

Step 3: After having mastered my base rifle and having become further competent in the fundamentals, usage of my optic, and making accurate range/wind calls and/or adjustments, invest in a "top notch" precision rifle and glass and continue to train, evaluate, make changes, and shoot better.

If I had to give myself an end goal it would be to be able to engage a man-sized target at 1000 yards with kill shot accuracy and consistent repeatability (I never plan on shooting anyone at that distance ever but the "man-sized" reference is the best thing I know given all my previous training).

A few questions for you all...

1) What would be the best .22/.223 rifle to start off with? Not looking for anything fancy just low budget and practical. Also, personal recommendations on target drills. I've read through some of the FAQ's and threads on here and I've seen a lot of great stuff I'd just like your personal input and what has worked for you in the past/present.

2) Base rifle/optic recommendations. I know there's a world of decent to great stuff to choose from in this category...I'm slightly partial to Vortex glass only because my dad has one on his target AR and at least out to 600 yards I'm impressed with the clarity of the glass (sunuvabitch is heavy though!, I believe he has a 5-22x). Rem700's to my knowledge have an excellent track record for outta the box performance, are reasonably priced, and easy enough to upgrade should I be inclined to do so.

3) Ok now this is an age old discussion hehe...what action is "better" than the rest? I've been doing a fair amount of reading on the Surgeon and GAP Templar actions (including threads on here) and the consensus seems to be that they're both outstanding choices and it's a matter of personal preference as well as pocketbook impact. I have no preference myself having never built nor used a high end precision rifle so I'm an open book in this regard. That being said, I took at look at the Surgeon Scalpel .308 today and it seems like it's a pretty good buy for the money.

4) Is there anything I am missing? I'm an open book ladies n gents, I want to learn as much as I possibly can and constructive criticism is my best friend.

Thanks in advance everyone!

Josh

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

for 22's the CZ 450 series guns are really nice and a good buy for the money, manners stocks makes a nice stock for em. If you want to spend some serious money the remington 40x's are nice as well.

for 223's i would seriously just look at a SPS r700 or something of that nature i'm not sure if FN makes their SPR in 223 but thats another valid choice as well as the tikka guns seem to be a good action or starting point for a 223.

glass is the one thing you get what you pay for. with that being said the vortex PST line gives a lot for the money, the SWFA scopes don't seem too bad (no experience personally), the bushnell HDMR's seem to be a REALLY well liked scope if you want to step up a little, then you get into the vortex razor, Nightforce F1, steiner, Kahles scopes. Being military i would look heavily at the leupold military purchase program as they offer a really good discount as well.

Sounds like you have a pretty good head on your shoulders about this, I highly suggest watching the used gun section for a 308 when you want to step up as their is a pretty good flow of guns goin through there with no wait from most reputable builders. GAP or surgeon are both top tier builders as well as SAC, Phoenix, APA, and the others frequently mentioned on this site. For a 308 another thing to look at are the AI AE's and TRG"s which are great choices as well.

READ READ READ READ as much as you can on here, buy the day 1 DVD that this site offers and get a monthly membership so you have access to all the articles and videos and it will go along way to further your learning.

good luck

 

[Greg Langelius *]

For your iron sights trainer, I would suggest the Savage Arms MKII FVT. It encompasses all the features you'll need in a basic, reliable package. It lists a 5rd ammo capacity, but 10rd DM's are easily available (for now anyway)

For the .223 Centerfire, I suggest something from the Mossberg MVP family. I sighted my Mossberg & Sons MVP Predator| 27711 in yesterday at 250yd using Prvi-Partizan 75gr Match. The rifle employs a (SFP) Tasco 6-24x42 Target / Varmint Riflescope VAR624X42M, my basic standard riflescope, and accuracy was very satisfactory with all shots inside a 6" Shoot-n-See target while I was doing final zeroing. Settling in and shooting for groups, I think 1MOA at 250yd is a reasonable goal.

I suggest this series of rifles especially since you probably already have a slew of AR magazines, which it uses interchangeably. The MVP action design has a (for now) unique feature that allows it to strip out rounds from an AR magazine

I was holding out for the Mossberg & Sons | 27710 MVP Varmint; which employs the same action in concert with a longer, heavier barrel and a more target-oriented stock; but on review after yesterday's outing, I am fully content with what I already have. These rifles are chambered in 5.56 with 1:9" rifling and will shoot both .223 and 5.56 ammo of up to 75gr (HPBT) very satisfactorily indeed.

These MVP rifles are ones you will hang onto, and continue to enjoy immensely, well after you progress on to more specialized platforms.

I can sympathize with a desire for an FFP scope, but in my years of shooting (I am 67 as of a week or two ago), I have yet to feel cheated by any of my SFP scopes. The FFP's are nice, but far from absolutely necessary.

I will go further and suggest that good and adequate are terms preferable to nice and expensive. My viewpoint is that anything whose price postpones one's entry into getting out there and actually getting started is counterproductive. In the first instance, it's hard to tell exactly what one will need in order to progress, and starting out with specialized and expensive gear only masks the real needs before they can present themselves. Better to start out basic, generic, and affordable, then progress from there; the odds for a specialized selection being made before then being a good match are not good.

Also, there is one instance where this does not apply. I use, and have only ever used, a Dillon RL550B handloading press. Yes it's a premium instrument, but I believe it is easy to say that it would most likely end up being just about anyone's ultimate handloading press, and that any time or expense employed with something lesser is simply wasted time and money. It's one instance where it's really preferable to skip straight to the chase. I would also suggest that, many, many arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, the RL550B produces ammo of a quality that no decent factory rifle, and many a superior custom rifle, need find inadequate. It's all the press I've ever needed, and I still compete regularly.

The basic concept of the trainer should consider accuracy as a requisite only in so far as that it needs to be accurate enough to distinguish between operator and equipment failure, and that reliability and simplicity far outweigh raw accuracy as mandates. You should always be able to distinguish that when things are off, it's the shooter who's having the bad day, and not the equipment. Beyond that, pursuit of equipment accuracy is a hollow goal.

When you get to the 1Kyd stage, recognize that you are already operating in a rarified environment, and that specialization is a requisite; but that you can still keep things (relatively) basic and generic. I would recommend one make of rifle only, the Savage Arms Model 12 F Class, or the Savage Arms Model 12 FTR. It is a factory rifle, with a factory warrantee, that's competitive right out of the box. Yes, shooting with handloads voids warrantees, but at least this rifle starts right out with a warrantee; and I think that puts it a leg up right out of the chute. The F Class Champions shoot Savage Rifles.

Greg

 

[B.A.C.]

I'm no help on the precision trainer front, but you also forget to tell us what you're wanting to spend. Most people who start with a Remington 700 do so because they cannot afford the upfront cost of a $3-4k rifle. I'm one of them. If you insist on a starter gun then you should consider the Remington 700 or Tikka T3.

However, if you have the cash available then you should completely scratch Step 2 and save yourself a boat load. Personally I can't think of more than a handful of guys who were lucky enough to purchase a basic 700 SPS that would shoot 1 MOA at 1000 yards straight from the factory. Maybe a 5R. Also, starting off with a "top notch" rifle and glass eliminates any equipment related excuses you may have for a bad day at the range. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

You could do a lot of research in selecting parts for a custom build or you can buy something like a TRG or AIAW. Depending on what kind of competition you will be shooting at will help you decide which is best for you. I'm of the opinion, as well as some of the Hide admins, that custom actions cannot justify their price tag. If you compete in a run and gun Snipers Hide Cup competition, then you would probably be best suited with a modified Remington 700 that you aren't afraid to beat up.

As far as optics are concerned, Vortex makes some great products and has a fantastic warranty to back it up. Again, we need to know what you're wanting to spend. The PST gets good review, but the Razor is on another level. Be sure not to overlook Bushnell's Elite Tactical offerings. If you want top shelf optics then look at S&B, Kahles, Nightforce, USO, Steiner, and Premier.

After you've overwhelmed yourself with information about rifles and optics then head over to the Reloading section.

 

[Bear24]

You have gotten great advice from the above posts already.

I am relatively now to the long range precision game but to me starting out with a very capable and accurate 308 rifle with good glass will speed up your learning process much faster and save you money in the long run and with the 308 you will still have good barrel life. I say this because I have shot with rifles that I was not 100% confident in and it makes adjusting for variables kind of a crap shoot not knowing for sure if you messed up or the gun is having an issue. Since you are lucky and have a great range close to you it will be even easier to hone your long range skills. You will get to know your rifle inside and out and not have an added learning step that you would have going from .223/22 to a 308.

For my first real rig I didn't have a ton of money to drop right off the bat but I found a FN SPR used for $1200 that came with a Nikon buck master scope. I shot a couple times with that and actually did very well out to 500 yards. I quickly sold the Nikon and picked up a vortex PST 6-24ffpand got the action bedded and have gotten a lot better. around 700 rounds down range and I can make consistent hits at 1k on 12" steel.

Here is my rig and I love it.

 

[lte82]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in all of this... but you can definitely get a nice ar-platform rifle to shoot sub moa and stretch all the way out to 1000 yards. Since you are already familiar with the platform might as well consider it.

Ok, to your questions...

1. skip the 223 and go for the 22 as a trainer. I second the savage mark 2 fvt. Really good accuracy and great sights out of thr box.

2. Does it have to be a 308? The 6.5x284 or 6.5cm and even the 260 rem are better calibers for long range and cost about the same as a 308 to own and shoot. Regardless, I would look hard at sako or tikka. They are definitely a step up from remington or savage but wont break the bank. From that price point on you are really starting to split hairs in terms of quality and accuracy. Scope wise, if you are going to have one go to gun, buy quality. NF, vortex, s&b, etc. I wouldnt get hung up on ffp either... not necessary at all.

 

[jcslone]

Sweet...

Ok, I was amiss in specifying budget(s) for each step...for a .22LR I was honestly only planning on $150-200. Maybe a tad more, maybe but that's iffy.
For the Step 2 rifle if I had to guesstimate I'd say around $1700 for both a rifle and optic.
For the custom build...well let's just say that my wife would be receiving a 2ct. diamond in her ring to soften the blow...

I am pretty well up to speed on most of the major brands and their respective levels of quality/feature sets (NF, Vortex, LP, S&B, SWFA, Manners, Surgeon, GAP, etc etc etc)...as well as how much they cost. Ya'll shoulda seen my wife's face when I told her that most high end scopes cost as much as a used 4-banger. For me with my family (2 kids, 3rd on the way due in Feb!) and the budgetary concerns thereof dropping a crapola of money on a custom rifle simply isn't feasible right now and most likely won't be until after my reenlistment and subsequent retention bonus (assuming Uncle Sam still wants me around). Buying a R700 or something in the same price bracket is something that I can do say by mid to late fall. I just want to get shooting as soon as possible.

As for caliber choice I chose .308 because simply put, there will never be a true "shortage" of 7.62x51. Every military in the world uses it, many police depts do, and it's the most plentiful round on shelves period (rivaled only by 9mm and .22LR IMO). That and it won't knock the snot outta the wife and kids either haha. And I'm just not really interested in the AR for a long range platform...too dang heavy, parts are nowhere near as easily procured, won't ever be as accurate as a custom bolt action rifle..aaaaannnnddd....I might do mag dumps with it a little more than once in a blue moon. I want something that forces me to slow down, shoot slow, and shoot accurately with repeatability. I can do failure drills, box drills, and head shot drills on Ivan targets all day long with an AR out to 100 yards..but I can't hit a moving target at 500 yards. That's the kind of ability I want to develop.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm not sure how things are where you shop for ammo, but .308 is definitely not on the menu anywhere near me. I own no .308's although I did start out with it.

I now shoot .260 Rem (and occasionally .280 Rem.). The brass for .260 can easily be necked down from 7-08, or up from .243, giving a potential 2nd and 3rd reasonably ready source of brass. I had some .260 Rem ammo, Rem and Fed, in my hand yesterday.

The .223 is even more marginal for 1Kyd than the .308. But conversely, it can teach the shooter about coping with conditions at extreme (in the transonic threshold) and extended (subsonic) LR regimes at lesser distances, which may be a lot easier to find closer to home. This can be even more true if one considers the .22LR for LR wind skills training. Staying with MVP/223 allows you to reuse you AR mags, and load for both rifles using a common set of reloading tools and components.

The .223 with 69-75gr bullets is definitely well within its element at 500yd, the MVP will serve well in that environment, and my own Stag Model 6 Super Varminter will definitely outshoot it with such loads at such distances. The HDY .224 75gr HPBT Match (AMP Jacket) is a true hummer in a properly twisted 5.56 barrel.

I just gotta say, it's an absolute hoot to have my AR be right up there vying for the 'most accurate rifle' tagline within my own collection. My16 Y/O Granddaughter uses it as her F T/R Match gun, and sometimes she even lets me shoot it, too.

You want to see absolute surly aggression? Try telling her that her AR is banned, that little 110lb she-wolverine is something to be reckoned with when she's riled. There's a significant contingent in her HS who wear NRA Tee shirts to school every day. America is not lost, at least not in this portion of Upstate NY.

The Savage MKII FVT may exceed your desired price point, but a decent .22LR iron sights rifle could well be worth the stretch. My iron sights trainer is an old Ex-GI Mossberg Model 44, and it's worth its weight in gold to me.

The absolute bare bones version of the MKII is the Stevens 300 (Factory list $205). It is the same action with a sporter barrel, leaf sights, and a non-Accu-Trigger fire control system. I know from experience that if you can hack it with notch sights and a non-adjustable trigger, it shoots very nearly as well as the FVT.

My basic scoped trainer is an elderly MKIIF that almost precisely duplicates the modern Stevens 300. The kids used to favor this rifle when I used it as a Youth Marksmanship Program workhorse.

Looks like optics could be a potential cost hangup. I suggest you give the Tasco VAR624X42M another look-see. I have owned four of them for several years now, they ride .22's to .30-'06's, have been on my 1Kyd .260 F Class Open custom rifle and one is on my current .30BR FV-250 Open custom. I have learned to trust them completely. It can get you up and running soonest, with very little to feel dissatisfied about. Worse comes to worst, you replace it with an upgraded scope, and keep it as a hot spare on a .22LR trainer.

Greg

 

[jcslone]

I have resources when it comes to military calibers...

I just had a fellow CalGunner PM me about a Marlin 81DL he has. An old one for sure, pics he sent me seem to be in decent condition for a C/R rifle. He's asking $250. Acceptable buy or should I hold out for something else?

yeah, optics are just expensive as hell for the good shit...

Ok so after an excessive amount of reading, debating back and forth with a couple buddies of mine (both of whom are die-hard Surgeon fans) I've got a list of some parts I might use in a custom build. I'd like your input please:

- Stiller TAC 30 A/W Action - $950
- Stiller BM - $295
- AICS 1.5 - $800-ish
- Krieger SS 26" bbl, fluted (roughly $500 ish)
- CG-Xtreme Mod 22 Tactical - $330
- Badger 43mm rings - $200
- S&B 5-25x56 PMII/LP/MTC/LT - $3800

Undoubtedly my list is incomplete so if I'm missing stuff please help me fill in the blanks. And I know that this is sans gunsmithing expenses as well. If I've got a good list going I might starting saving/buying parts sooner than later (so long as the missus doesn't kill me lol!)

Josh

 

[garandman]

My thoughts....

If you already shoot expert, you don't really need to start out with a trainer. But if you really want one, the CZ452 American is a great bolt 22rf gun that scopes up well.

If your interest is long distance shooting, which really begins at 600 yards, skip the 223. Mouse guns are for shooting mice. Close up. Some might argue the 223 can be good for making wind calls, but past 300 its dropping fast, and losing speed so fast it exaggerates wind and elevation calls for your ultimate goal - 1000 yards. And if you bought the trainer, you already have a 22 mouse gun.

The 308 is a great gun, but can be sketchy past 800. Even with the heavy bullets. I love my DPMS LR308 (gas gun) Its a half minute gun, so don't think "gas" = inaccurate.

My final thought hinges on whether or not you will reload. If not, stick to a major caliber - 308 / 7mm / 300 WinMag. If you intend to reload( and that's the only way to get to serious accuracy) the prevailing thought in F-class 1000 yard shooting seems to be the 6mm and / or the 6.5mm. If you don't plan to reload, begin planning to reload.

Based on your previous training and expertise, and provided you are gonna reload, I'd say go straight to the 6 / 6.5 mm.

Set aside as much money for glass as for the base rifle. Then increase your glass money by 50% before you go shopping. Read a lot. But skeptically. Believe only that which is verified by multiple sources. Particularly those that have nothing invested in (1) selling you something, or (2) justifying how they spent their money (think: fan boys)

 

[broylz]

I would build a spr type ar15, something that you're already familiar with, and scope it with a 2.5-10x vortex viper pst series scope while I waited on a GAP build with the budget it sounds like you're working with.

That said, you might also consider a 30-06 build as it covers the gap between 308 and 300 win mag nicely. In my area, 30-06 is the only round that never had a shortage during the worst of this recent ammo scare. If I build a full custom like you're discussing, it will most likely be an '06. You will need to reload to take full advantage of it though

 

[jcslone]

I absolutely plan on reloading (eventually...).

Never thought about doing an SPR-type rifle...I'll have to look into this some more and begin pricing stuff out. And I have considered GAP but if I were to have something built for me I think I'd be going with the Surgeon Scalpel base rifle because it's about the same price as a GAP rifle and it comes with the AICS <3

I have zero knowledge about the 6/6.5 cals so any info ya'll can throw at me is appreciated *smells a caliber battle coming...*

30-06 is hella flat shooting from what I remember right?

 

[broylz]

If you compare 30-06 to 308 with the same bullets, it will shoot flatter as it will gain a couple hundred fps maybe. But you can also step up to heavier bullets like the 208 amax as well. I personally haven't shot anything like this in '06 yet so this is just my limited research. I have found numerous claims to the effect of a 30-06 can cover up to 90% of a 300 win mag without the extra recoil, blast or short barrel life. But that said, it will also be a bit more than 308 but shouldn't be bad.

As far as the spr, I plan on building a mk12 mod 0 clone with an 18" barrel and a 2.5 or 3.5-10x scope. I plan on the 2.5-10 viper pst but have seen several built with 3.5-10 leupold mk 4 as well. His should give you a nice .223 that's good to 6-700 yards with the right ammo and shooter

 

[jcslone]

Gotcha, that confirms what I've heard from other people.

I did some quick shopping around...I can build an 18" SPR-ish rifle for around 3K including optic, here's my parts list:

Rainier Arms Ultra Match 5.56mm 18.5" upper - $1500
MAG Stripped Lower Reciever - $170
Rock River Arms 2 Stage LPK - $180
Magpul AR-15 Rifle Stock - $90
Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x32 FFP MRAD - $900
La Rue LT 120 mount - $264


Granted it's only 5.56 and not a .308 but I can take that accurately to around 500-600 yards with match ammo and handloads. My dad's running an RRA 20" Varmint upper (SS heavy bull barrel) in conjunction with a Razor HD (I forget which one) and he has taken it out to 600 yards successfully with Black hills ammo. I think with the setup above I could fulfill my short terms wants/need while saving for a bolt action tack driver. It'll allow me to shoot the local comps for sure. And I love milspec triggers so I doubt I'd upgrade the RRA one for a while if ever. Speaking to ammo, there's a local gunsmith (Scott Edwards, RSE Custom Guns) who can load and get ammo for respectable prices given today's market.

 

[broylz]

For the price of the rra 2 stage trigger, I would consider a Giselle SSA or SSA/E. the ssa/e is the nicest trigger ice pulled in a long time

 

[jcslone]

For the price of the rra 2 stage trigger, I would consider a Giselle SSA or SSA/E. the ssa/e is the nicest trigger ice pulled in a long time

the RRA is the LPK and trigger so it's a better deal IMO...My dad has the Giselle SSA on his AR and I do agree that it is very, very nice...perhaps down the road lol. I just want to get something set up now so I can shoot.

 

[broylz]

My mistake. Should have seen the "lpk" part of that line. That's what I get for reading too fast

 

[jcslone]

My mistake. Should have seen the "lpk" part of that line. That's what I get for reading too fast

lol it's all good...I just now got the AOK from the boss to start on this after I get back stateside! Prolly gonna buy all the "cheap" stuff first and then penny pinch/sell my soul for the rest of the stuff...and crap...ammo too...gotta at least shoot my glock in the mean time hehe