Glass decisions

[tex68w]

I just put together a new stick for deer season. 20" Proof Carbon 308 on a TL3 action, TT Special, Hawkins DBM, AG Alpine Hunter, with the option of running a TBAC Ultra 7 Gen 2 on a CB brake. Now I need to pick out some glass for it. I get the Pro/MIL/VIP deal on NF, Leupold and Vortex so the pricing on their glass is appealing and likely where I'll focus my options. I want something to compliment the quality of the rifle itself but also to provide me good visibility in low light conditions, which is why I am demanding it have illumination. My eyes are still pretty good considering I am knocking on the door of 40 but I won't deny any added help I can get from better glass and /or a larger objective (within reason).

Where we hunt 90% of the shots are inside of 150, visibility at dawn and dusk is hindered by the thick cedar surrounding the clearings/sendero's from the blinds to the feeders which limit light when the sun is low on the horizon. I think in MILs so no MOA reticle suggestions please. I plan to have the option to run this gun out west in a 6.5 PRC layout so I'd like the glass to be enough for shots 500+ when/if needed.

With all of that said, I see Vortex as the third best option of the three, I just sold the Razor HD LHT I had on last years rifle and I wasn't all that impressed. I am leaning towards the Mark 5 HD 3.6-18x or the ATACR 4-16x. Any thoughts between these two, how they compare? Should I be considering something else from another make as well, maybe a ZCO 420? Any input here would be much appreciated as I want to buy once and get this thing setup and fine tuned prior to the season opener in 130-ish days. Thanks for any input.

 

[FredHammer]

Leupold 3-15X56 VX5HD Firedot duplex. Bright AF glass, lighter weight, easy reticle.

 

[FuhQ]

I just put together a new stick for deer season. 20" Proof Carbon 308 on a TL3 action, TT Special, Hawkins DBM, AG Alpine Hunter, with the option of running a TBAC Ultra 7 Gen 2 on a CB brake. Now I need to pick out some glass for it. I get the Pro/MIL/VIP deal on NF, Leupold and Vortex so the pricing on their glass is appealing and likely where I'll focus my options. I want something to compliment the quality of the rifle itself but also to provide me good visibility in low light conditions, which is why I am demanding it have illumination. My eyes are still pretty good considering I am knocking on the door of 40 but I won't deny any added help I can get from better glass and /or a larger objective (within reason).

Where we hunt 90% of the shots are inside of 150, visibility at dawn and dusk is hindered by the thick cedar surrounding the clearings/sendero's from the blinds to the feeders which limit light when the sun is low on the horizon. I think in MILs so no MOA reticle suggestions please. I plan to have the option to run this gun out west in a 6.5 PRC layout so I'd like the glass to be enough for shots 500+ when/if needed.

With all of that said, I see Vortex as the third best option of the three, I just sold the Razor HD LHT I had on last years rifle and I wasn't all that impressed. I am leaning towards the Mark 5 HD 3.6-18x or the ATACR 4-16x. Any thoughts between these two, how they compare? Should I be considering something else from another make as well, maybe a ZCO 420? Any input here would be much appreciated as I want to buy once and get this thing setup and fine tuned prior to the season opener in 130-ish days. Thanks for any input.

If you want something to compliment the quality of the rifle, I sure wouldn't buy anything from Leupold or Vortex.

ZCO 420 MIL is a good one, so if the Kahles K318i CCW Right-windage SKRM3 MIL (running one on my 20" carbon 7mm-08 for my main deer rifle), Burris XTR-3i 3.3-18x50 SCR 2 MIL, NF ATACR F1 4-20x50 MIL-XT, Zeiss LRP S3 4-25x50 #16 .1 MIL

 

[tex68w]

If you want something to compliment the quality of the rifle, I sure wouldn't buy anything from Leupold or Vortex.

ZCO 420 MIL is a good one, so if the Kahles K318i CCW Right-windage SKRM3 MIL (running one on my 20" carbon 7mm-08 for my main deer rifle), Burris XTR-3i 3.3-18x50 SCR 2 MIL, NF ATACR F1 4-20x50 MIL-XT, Zeiss LRP S3 4-25x50 #16 .1 MIL

I totally forgot about Kahles. I've never been all that impressed with stuff from Burris or Bushnell, I don't think they are in the same league with the other you listed. Touché in regards to Vortex, that's why I touched on that in my original post, short of my Razor 1-6x I don't have a place for their glass in my safe anymore. I have had some great experiences with Leupold over the years but they obviously don't hold a candle to the likes of ZCO, S&B, Zeiss, Kahles, Tangent, etc.

 

[FuhQ]

I totally forgot about Kahles. I've never been all that impressed with stuff from Burris or Bushnell, I don't think they are in the same league with the other you listed. Touché in regards to Vortex, that's why I touched on that in my original post, short of my Razor 1-6x I don't have a place for their glass in my safe anymore. I have had some great experiences with Leupold over the years but they obviously don't hold a candle to the likes of ZCO, S&B, Zeiss, Kahles, Tangent, etc.

Yeah, the Burris isn't quite on the same level as the others, but it's actually not as far away as one would think. For years I refused to use Burris, but dude, after owning 2, I bought 2 more. LOL I have 3 of the XTR-2i SCR MIL 5-25x50 scopes, and a XTR-3i 5.5-30x56 SCR 2 MIL. The XTR-3i glass is exceptionally good, and the turrets are really nice. So are the mechanical controls. I wouldn't sleep on the XTR-3i if you're ever in need of a $1,500 scope for a certain project, or great for target shooting. LOTS of guys are using the Burris XTR-3i 3.3-18x50 SCR 2 for a hunting scope, and sing it's praises.

Yeah, I'm getting rid of all my Viper HS-T's and other Vortex scopes. I'm keeping all the prism optics and stuff on my AR's, because they're nice and bombproof, but as far as the "real" rifle scopes go, I'm axing all of them. I might even sell my Strike Eagle 5-25x56 EBR-7C, as well. Haven't decided yet. It's been a good scope, just want to replace it with something higher end, probably another XTR-2i 5-25x50.

My unpopular opinion is that Leupold and S&B are both running off of 30 year old tech, stuffed into fancy new packaging, and calling it "innovation". We ALL know the MK-IV scopes were as solid as your stool after a night at the bar and waffle house at 3am... They were undoubtedly the shittiest scopes Leupold ever tried to pawn. Fragile as a Fabergé egg. And the S&B PM-II is the same scope from 30 years ago, maybe with a couple tweaks to call it "updated" to keep it remotely relevant in the market. You're right about neither of them being in the same class as the others.

Yeah, I've got a bunch of Kahles, Zeiss, and other alpha scopes, they're mainly what I'm swapping everything over to now. Rifles I don't shoot much will all be getting XTR-2i 5-25x50's ($1,499 MSRP, $1K retail, on sale for $650 right now at EuroOptic).

This is the K318i one I'm running on mine...

Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 CCW SKMR3 w-right Riflescope 10633

FREE SHIPPING on Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 CCW SKMR3 w-right Riflescope 10633

www.eurooptic.com

 

[Glassaholic]

I just put together a new stick for deer season. 20" Proof Carbon 308 on a TL3 action, TT Special, Hawkins DBM, AG Alpine Hunter, with the option of running a TBAC Ultra 7 Gen 2 on a CB brake. Now I need to pick out some glass for it. I get the Pro/MIL/VIP deal on NF, Leupold and Vortex so the pricing on their glass is appealing and likely where I'll focus my options. I want something to compliment the quality of the rifle itself but also to provide me good visibility in low light conditions, which is why I am demanding it have illumination. My eyes are still pretty good considering I am knocking on the door of 40 but I won't deny any added help I can get from better glass and /or a larger objective (within reason).

Where we hunt 90% of the shots are inside of 150, visibility at dawn and dusk is hindered by the thick cedar surrounding the clearings/sendero's from the blinds to the feeders which limit light when the sun is low on the horizon. I think in MILs so no MOA reticle suggestions please. I plan to have the option to run this gun out west in a 6.5 PRC layout so I'd like the glass to be enough for shots 500+ when/if needed.

With all of that said, I see Vortex as the third best option of the three, I just sold the Razor HD LHT I had on last years rifle and I wasn't all that impressed. I am leaning towards the Mark 5 HD 3.6-18x or the ATACR 4-16x. Any thoughts between these two, how they compare? Should I be considering something else from another make as well, maybe a ZCO 420? Any input here would be much appreciated as I want to buy once and get this thing setup and fine tuned prior to the season opener in 130-ish days. Thanks for any input.

Of the scopes you list I’d recommend the NF ATACR 4-16x42, oldie but goodie. Leupy illumination to costly for what you get and odd 35mm tube another drawback if you like to swap scopes/mounts. I love the Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50, great scope but it’s FOV very narrow so more like a 4-18 in that regard, outside of that quality all around, new price is not worth it, look for used in the $2200ish range

 

[Chris1972]

I know I’m a fanboy at the moment because I recently bought one, but I would do some serious looking at the ZCO 420. After buying the 527 I’ll put it on anything I shoot or buy another one. It’s a different ball game. The 420 has a nice field of view as well.

 

[Bigwilly556]

I have a very similar setup to yours. 16.5 proof sendero, 308 and TB ultra 5. I also get the MIL/LE pricing. I hunt mostly in the western upper peninsula of Michigan in big timber country but do take it out west. Looked at the mk 5hd and didn't care for how big the reticle was at max magnification nor could I stomach the additional cash for illumination which I feels is a must in your situation. The atacr 4-16 is a phenomenal cross over/hunting scope and I now have 2 of them and can't recommend them enough. Good but not great at low light and the green illumination is perfect for the dark timber or swamps. I choose mil c for both as they have less busy obstructive reticle. I've taken my 6.5 PRC out to 800 with no issue.

308 front.

6.5 PRC

 

[BamaSE]

For the type hunting you described….I’d recommend a S&B Polar T96 2.5-10x50. Excellent in low light. And the 2.5x works very well for the close in woods stuff. Given your average range of 150 no need to dial. I run a standard duplex on mine (Tikka T3 .30-06)…..zero at 100, hold mid front shoulder high at 200, and top of back at 300. There’s one for sale in the exchange right now, but check Europtic for sales.

 

[tex68w]

Of the scopes you list I’d recommend the NF ATACR 4-16x42, oldie but goodie. Leupy illumination to costly for what you get and odd 35mm tube another drawback if you like to swap scopes/mounts. I love the Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50, great scope but it’s FOV very narrow so more like a 4-18 in that regard, outside of that quality all around, new price is not worth it, look for used in the $2200ish range

The 4-16 Mil-C likely makes the most sense and can be had at that $2K or slightly under price. I've shot a few rounds behind a Kahles but it has been a few years back now. I don't want a used salty piece of glass on the new boom stick so I'd have to look hard for a clean used unit to go the K318i route well under $3K.

I know I’m a fanboy at the moment because I recently bought one, but I would do some serious looking at the ZCO 420. After buying the 527 I’ll put it on anything I shoot or buy another one. It’s a different ball game. The 420 has a nice field of view as well.

I have a 527 MPCT-3 and I love it, the 420 is at the top of my list, I am just trying to justify the sticker price and I am only finding the MPCT1 reticle in stock most places at the moment. That might not be a bad thing though considering that it's their simplest and least cluttered reticle option which would be great for a dedicated hunting optic. On paper the 4-16 Mil-C likely makes the most sense and can be had at that $2K or slightly under price point.

 

[Maurygold]

don't let people complimenting Burris talk you out of leupold. The mark 5hd is a fantastic scope

 

[tex68w]

I have a very similar setup to yours. 16.5 proof sendero, 308 and TB ultra 5. I also get the MIL/LE pricing. I hunt mostly in the western upper peninsula of Michigan in big timber country but do take it out west. Looked at the mk 5hd and didn't care for how big the reticle was at max magnification nor could I stomach the additional cash for illumination which I feels is a must in your situation. The atacr 4-16 is a phenomenal cross over/hunting scope and I now have 2 of them and can't recommend them enough. Good but not great at low light and the green illumination is perfect for the dark timber or swamps. I choose mil c for both as they have less busy obstructive reticle. I've taken my 6.5 PRC out to 800 with no issue.View attachment 8172157
308 front.View attachment 8172158
6.5 PRC

Those are some nice setups for sure. I wanted to go shorter on the 308 but Proof Carbon prefits for the TL3 don't go any shorter than 20". I can live with it and it's a lot less wildly at 20" without a can should I want to lend it to a friend or travel with it out of state without the can.

The only problem with the NF VIP is the current wait time, I'd be pushing it in order to get the glass in time for the season. I doubt any of the vendors here or elsewhere honor that pricing either.

 

[tex68w]

don't let people complimenting Burris talk you out of leupold. The mark 5hd is a fantastic scope

Like I said, my experience with them has been good overall, it's still an option.

 

[FuhQ]

don't let people complimenting Burris talk you out of leupold. The mark 5hd is a fantastic scope

Your opinion is just as invalid as mine.

@tex68w Don't let Fudds tell you whose opinion is or is't invalid, or who you should or shouldn't be listening to. Decide that for yourself.

 

[mp0311]

If you want something to compliment the quality of the rifle, I sure wouldn't buy anything from Leupold or Vortex.

ZCO 420 MIL is a good one, so if the Kahles K318i CCW Right-windage SKRM3 MIL (running one on my 20" carbon 7mm-08 for my main deer rifle), Burris XTR-3i 3.3-18x50 SCR 2 MIL, NF ATACR F1 4-20x50 MIL-XT, Zeiss LRP S3 4-25x50 #16 .1 MIL

How does the zeiss/burris stack up against the others you mentioned, I too get a deal on them and have wondering where they fit

 

[kthomas]

don't let people complimenting Burris talk you out of leupold. The mark 5hd is a fantastic scope

The new(ish) MK5HD scopes actually seem pretty decent. I personally wouldn't overlook them.

A used K318 would be a nice fit on a hunting rifle, though I agree that the MSRP price is steep - I would look on the used market if pursuing that option.

While I'm not a huge NF guy, those would also be hard to overlook if you get a great deal on them. 3-18/4-16 is probably a good power range to be looking at.

 

[FuhQ]

How does the zeiss/burris stack up against the others you mentioned, I too get a deal on them and have wondering where they fit

The Zeiss LRP S3 is an excellent scope. Great glass, bright, clear, nice reticle, nice turrets. The XTR-3i is the same way.

The Kahles K318i is true Austrian alpha glass. But MSRP is $3,700, compared to the Zeiss at $2,200-2,500, and the XTR-3i at $1,500.

I wouldn’t put them in the same category as the Kahles or ZCO, but they’re only a step below it, IMO. I don’t think you’d be disappointed in them, if you went that route. But it all comes down to your budget. If you can afford the K318i or ZCO 420, then go that route. If you’re budget stops around $2,500, go Zeiss. But if you only want to spend $1,500, you won’t be disappointed in the XTR-3i.

 

[RayDBonz]

The only problem with the NF VIP is the current wait time, I'd be pushing it in order to get the glass in time for the season. I doubt any of the vendors here or elsewhere honor that pricing either.

I ordered a NF 4-16x42 in January. It gets here tomorrow. Very fast for their mil program.
I also ordered two of their competition scopes, April 2022 and July 2022. They get here next week.
And no, other vendors can't match the mil pricing - it is their cost.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I wouldn’t pick any of your choices or most of the suggestions in here for what’s essentially a short range hunting rifle. 1-10, 2-10, 2.5-10, 3-12 will actually be useful on the lower end of mag range where you’ll be using it the most.

 

[tex68w]

I ordered a NF 4-16x42 in January. It gets here tomorrow. Very fast for their mil program.
I also ordered two of their competition scopes, April 2022 and July 2022. They get here next week.
And no, other vendors can't match the mil pricing - it is their cost.

I got one in under three months earlier this year, beat their original estimate by two months. Right now the ATACR 4-16 is six months out.

I wouldn’t pick any of your choices or most of the suggestions in here for what’s essentially a short range hunting rifle. 1-10, 2-10, 2.5-10, 3-12 will actually be useful on the lower end of mag range where you’ll be using it the most.

I actually use the 10x-ish power setting quite often out there, a very busy low light backdrop for the most part.

 

[Bakwa]

ZCO if you can afford it. ATACR for $1k+ less. Maybe look at the new Steiner T6Xi if going cheaper than that. NXS is always an oldie but good one too.
I agree that leupy and vortex are overrated.
Buy once cry once.
Feel free to PM me if you want to ask any specific questions. I'm blessed to have had experience on a lot of optics spoken about in this thread.

 

[tex68w]

Leaning hard towards the ATACR 4-16x at the moment and they seem the most readily available on the used market as well. I'd love to have a look behind a Kahles K318i but they are on the porkier side of this range north of 30oz. just like the ZCO 420 and I don't see any for sale in the exchange at the moment either. I'm not gonna lie, that S&B Polar T96 2.5-10x that @BamaSE suggested is kind of tempting on the lower end of the power and weight scale.

 

[Bakwa]

Leaning hard towards the ATACR 4-16x at the moment and they seem the most readily available on the used market as well. I'd love to have a look behind a Kahles K318i but they are on the porkier side of this range north of 30oz. just like the ZCO 420 and I don't see any for sale in the exchange at the moment either. I'm not gonna lie, that S&B Polar T96 2.5-10x that @BamaSE suggested is kind of tempting on the lower end of the power and weight scale.

The sporter S&B's have great glass for the money. I'm not sure I'd beat them up like the PMII's though.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

150 yard deer rifle...it really doesn't matter what you use. It's all going to perform essentially the same with the exception of low light. The Vortex razor 4-22 ffp is nice and bright and light and can be had for under $1200. That's my pick for a sub 2k hunting optic. Zco is overkill and I have 3 of them on match guns. If you want to spend the money on something, some alpha binos like swaro EL or Pures will help with finding game in heavy brush. The mk5 has pretty bad glass for its price but its light. The xtr3 3-18 is another awesome little optic with great glass but reticle may be too thin for hunting and a little heavier. A minox zp5 3-15 would be a good choice if you want to get into the 2-3k range. NF is overrated af.

 

[glock24]

Nice setup. Although I'm biased, because I'm building the exact same thing. IMO, it's very close to a "do-it-all" type of precision rifle.

That said, a build like this deserves the closest thing to a "do-it-all optic" as well. For me, that's a large, large field-of-view (FOV) at low power and an unmistakable reticle. Both necessary for hunting, and especially in low-light and thick cover. This is why I believe SFP still has it's purpose.

Frankly, my mind was already made up on the new March 1.5-15x42mm even before it was ready. Unfortunately the reviews have given me pause.

From your list, if I was forced to choose now, I'd still prioritize by magnification and FOV. This is my only criticism of NF. They don't seem to have the best specs. I even ran the 2.5-10x42 for a bit, and it was like looking through a toilet paper tube.

I think the Vortex and Leupold choice is closer. I have both, and the VX-6 in either 2-12 or 3-18 work well. As for Vortex, I would honestly take a hard look at the Razor 1-10x. Sure, I'd rather have 15x on those few occasions I'm shooting out to 500, but 10x gets the job done.

 

[shields shtr]

I have a similar shorty setup in 6.5 PRC. It was topped with the Mk5 3-18, then I put a March 4.5-28 on it. In my opinion, probably the best scope out there for how I hunt. I never really run it above 20x, but the field of view is spectacular at the lower mag ranges. I frickin love it. I do live out west though, so my average shots seem to be a little longer than what you are talking about.

For your setup, I think the 4-16 NF is the best scope NF makes. I have tried my hardest to like them, but I have never looked through a NF and been like "wow". That being said, the 4-16 is pretty dang good.

The Minox ZP5 3-15 is a "wow" scope. The glass is right on par with ZCO and Tangent, and you can occasionally find them used here. They are kinda heavy though. I agree with @DeathBeforeDismount though, if your primary purpose is hitting a deer sized target at 150 yards, most of these would be overkill.

Have you looked at the Leica Amplus? Wide field of view and they have pretty dang good glass. You can also get them with a 56MM objective I think. They don't get alot of press, but I have one on a .22 and it's a solid performer for sure.

 

[tex68w]

I’ve glanced through some Minox at the LGS and they aren’t too shabby. Weight is a concern for the build but it’s not paramount since this is mostly a stand rifle, short hikes, shots seated and from a rest, for that kind of use the weight isn’t as much of a factor. Glass and rings will be roughly 2lbs for most of what’s being discussed here which will put the build at 10lbs flat and that’s more than acceptable for my use case.

It’s hard to justify $3500-4K for glass on a deer rifle but it’s also a top quality build that can easily be turned into a more western hunt stick should I want to push it out further more regularly with a 6.5 and better glass with more power would be beneficial for that use. That glass already on top would make for an easier transition at that time as well.

I have time, the season is still four months out but I want it completed with a few weeks time to get it sorted before opening weekend.

 

[tex68w]

I settled for a ATACR 4-16x50, it'll do for this fall and once that new ZCO comes out or I decide to try something different, this can go on down the road or find its way onto another build. Thanks to all of those who chimed in, your input was appreciated.