Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

[taseal]

I'm building a new load up with the 208 and my magazine is 3.700, so I can load about 3.600 (.30-06) and still have .1 clearance.

Now let me also mention I'm getting my action trued along with a Rock Creek barrel being chambered, so whatever dummy cartridge I make for him, my gunsmith will chamber it so that I have .01-.015 jump to lands. so if I make my round 3.600, he will have a 3.610-3.615 chamber for me.

Is my goal pretty much to get the longest bullet seating that sits in my magazine? (yes I'm gonna use the magazine)

or is there something else that I'm looking for to get the right seating depth. I obviously can't do any load testing to see which seating depth would work since he is going to build the rifle/barrel off of the dummy I give him.

I've been running numbers on QL, and with a 3.600 seated 208 amax, and Norma MRP, I can hit ~2800-2820 fps with 58000 psi out of a 27 inch barrel, which is pretty damn good. shortening it to 3.500 takes about 10fps. 3.650 was 15 more fps

 

[memo43]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

What stock do you plan on getting.
Have you seen the stocks that Gary Elisio makes, it is pretty much a tub gun concept, but I hae seen him custom magazines.
that way you are not limited to mag length. pretty much get them to what ever lenght you want.
Is this for a long action or short action

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

"Is my goal pretty much to get the longest bullet seating that sits in my magazine?"

Maybe. But MY goal is to find and use the OAL that shoots best and that's rarely the longest possible.

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memo43</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What stock do you plan on getting.
Have you seen the stocks that Gary Elisio makes, it is pretty much a tub gun concept, but I hae seen him custom magazines.
that way you are not limited to mag length. pretty much get them to what ever lenght you want.
Is this for a long action or short action
</div></div>

I already have a b&c stock that I'm happy with and it sports a wyatt DBM

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Is my goal pretty much to get the longest bullet seating that sits in my magazine?"

Maybe. But MY goal is to find and use the OAL that shoots best and that's rarely the longest possible.
</div></div>

And how do you do that with a rifle that hasn't been built yet?

I'm talking about getting the barrel reamed so that a dummy round I make will be the dimensions for chamber/free bore etc.

I can't fine tune a load if I don't have a barrel.

My question was what should the dummy round be so that my gunsmith can ream the barrel accordingly. Once I have the rifle, I cam fine tune to see how much of a jump, or jam the bullet likes.

 

[battlestick]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

I have thought about this as well. I am changing from 06 to 6.5 and was thinking about the same chicken before the egg thing. Someone will be along shortly to tell me I am doing it wrong, but at this point here is what I am planning to do....

Ingore mag length a bit, and I am going to seat the bullet base .020 past the bottom of the neck. This will allow me to seat a little deeper if the bullet likes to jump, jam it if need be, and still have room to chase the lands.

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

Yeah while posting I thought Bout that...

If I set the bullet at 3.6 and my gunsmith chambers with .010 jump, and in my testing this thing likes to get jammed in the lands, I won't be able to use the mag. Or if I decide to use vld bullets, theyll be even longer...

But then again, I just don't know. Want to make the best guess, because once it's cha,breed and reamed. That's it. I gotta work with it

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah while posting I thought Bout that...

If I set the bullet at 3.6 and my gunsmith chambers with .010 jump, and in my testing this thing likes to get jammed in the lands, I won't be able to use the mag. Or if I decide to use vld bullets, theyll be even longer...

But then again, I just don't know. Want to make the best guess, because once it's cha,breed and reamed. That's it. I gotta work with it </div></div>

Leave yourself a bit of space to work with in the mag. You are going to chase the lands as the throat erodes over time.

Josh

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah while posting I thought Bout that...

If I set the bullet at 3.6 and my gunsmith chambers with .010 jump, and in my testing this thing likes to get jammed in the lands, I won't be able to use the mag. Or if I decide to use vld bullets, theyll be even longer...

But then again, I just don't know. Want to make the best guess, because once it's cha,breed and reamed. That's it. I gotta work with it </div></div>

Leave yourself a bit of space to work with in the mag. You are going to chase the lands as the throat erodes over time.

Josh </div></div>

Good point.

 

[battlestick]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah while posting I thought Bout that...

If I set the bullet at 3.6 and my gunsmith chambers with .010 jump, and in my testing this thing likes to get jammed in the lands, I won't be able to use the mag. Or if I decide to use vld bullets, theyll be even longer...

But then again, I just don't know. Want to make the best guess, because once it's cha,breed and reamed. That's it. I gotta work with it </div></div>

Leave yourself a bit of space to work with in the mag. You are going to chase the lands as the throat erodes over time.

Josh </div></div>

Not to highjack the thread, but does that mean that my train of thought above is correct?

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: battlestick</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah while posting I thought Bout that...

If I set the bullet at 3.6 and my gunsmith chambers with .010 jump, and in my testing this thing likes to get jammed in the lands, I won't be able to use the mag. Or if I decide to use vld bullets, theyll be even longer...

But then again, I just don't know. Want to make the best guess, because once it's cha,breed and reamed. That's it. I gotta work with it </div></div>

Leave yourself a bit of space to work with in the mag. You are going to chase the lands as the throat erodes over time.

Josh </div></div>

Not to highjack the thread, but does that mean that my train of thought above is correct? </div></div>

kind of. but i'm not sure where you came up with that .20 number. unless it's just a base you want to start off with.

How much does a throat erode? .1 per thousand rounds seems ALOT

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kind of. but i'm not sure where you came up with that .20 number. unless it's just a base you want to start off with.

How much does a throat erode? .1 per thousand rounds seems ALOT </div></div>

He said .01. Generally, here is what I would do. Get the longest projectile you plan on shooting and seat it where the base of the bearing surface is at the neck/shoulder junction of the brass. Measure that loaded round and have them make you a reamer that has around.01-.02 freebore. You will be able to seat to the lands, but you will also be able to seat with up to a .02 jump if your projectiles prefer that and not encroach on the powder column. You will be fine to chase the lands as well, but try not to get less that one calibers worth of bullet inside the neck.

Josh

 

[Sr-WiNdTeCh]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

I just made a thread dealing with bullet seating in single shot rifles, check it out.

 

[DocB]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

taseal,

Unless the 225 gr. is longer than the 208 AMAX, the longest bullet I could find to fit my factory Rem. 308 was the 210 JLK. For about .020" jam, I seat them at 3.230". About .150 of the bullet is in the neck of the cartridge.

HTH,
DocB

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

Taseal have you looked at the Serengetti reamer? You can read about it here: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek098.html
German Salazar is the autority on the 30-06.

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">taseal,

Unless the 225 gr. is longer than the 208 AMAX, the longest bullet I could find to fit my factory Rem. 308 was the 210 JLK. For about .020" jam, I seat them at 3.230". About .150 of the bullet is in the neck of the cartridge.

HTH,
DocB </div></div>

This is a -06 so it will be a little longer. Only .150? I have no idea how much of the bullet is in the case with 3.600 oal w/208 amax, I'll have to check.

I might go 3.500 or 3.550. I want something so I can seat both 175 and 208s.

Thanks for for the link. I'm leaving the reamer stuff to the gunsmith though, he has some proven work, so that's his decision.

So what kind of erosion of throat is to be expected overtime? Sorry if I missed it. Posting from my phone is kind of pita, so I might not have seen it. Like .5 1000 rounds will be eaten away?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">taseal,

Unless the 225 gr. is longer than the 208 AMAX, the longest bullet I could find to fit my factory Rem. 308 was the 210 JLK. For about .020" jam, I seat them at 3.230". About .150 of the bullet is in the neck of the cartridge.

HTH,
DocB </div></div>

This is a -06 so it will be a little longer. Only .150? I have no idea how much of the bullet is in the case with 3.600 oal w/208 amax, I'll have to check.

I might go 3.500 or 3.550. I want something so I can seat both 175 and 208s.

Thanks for for the link. I'm leaving the reamer stuff to the gunsmith though, he has some proven work, so that's his decision.

So what kind of erosion of throat is to be expected overtime? Sorry if I missed it. Posting from my phone is kind of pita, so I might not have seen it. Like .5 1000 rounds will be eaten away? </div></div>

With a 30-06 clocking the kind of numbers you are describing your barrel should go 3000 rounds before the accuracy falls off any from throat erosion. That is a conservative estimate it could go more maybe less. All this talk of chasing the throat is a bit moot. When you have to chase the throat your accuracy has fallen off and no amount of throat chasing will get it back. At that time you set back the barrel and rechamber then its like a new barrel again.
There was an article in Precision Shooting in 97 or 98 about throat erosion and barrel life. The article followed the life of 5 Shilen test barrels all in 308Win. They all did just fine testing bullet lots until around 4000 round mark best I recall. Perhaps I will dig through my magazines and find the article for you.
You tell me you are leaving the reamer selection up to the smith and then saying you are providing him with a dummy round. When the proper reamer is selected there is no need to alter the throat. Technically you are not leaving it up to the smith if you are providing a dummy round. You can rethroat a barrel after it is reamed and shot but a throat cut too long is a chamber ruined. Have him cut it with a good match reamer and see if it suits your needs first, that is what I would do if it were me. I will try and get some numbers on my rifle today and let you know what I find as far as seating depth distance to lands etc.

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">taseal,

Unless the 225 gr. is longer than the 208 AMAX, the longest bullet I could find to fit my factory Rem. 308 was the 210 JLK. For about .020" jam, I seat them at 3.230". About .150 of the bullet is in the neck of the cartridge.

HTH,
DocB </div></div>

This is a -06 so it will be a little longer. Only .150? I have no idea how much of the bullet is in the case with 3.600 oal w/208 amax, I'll have to check.

I might go 3.500 or 3.550. I want something so I can seat both 175 and 208s.

Thanks for for the link. I'm leaving the reamer stuff to the gunsmith though, he has some proven work, so that's his decision.

So what kind of erosion of throat is to be expected overtime? Sorry if I missed it. Posting from my phone is kind of pita, so I might not have seen it. Like .5 1000 rounds will be eaten away? </div></div>

With a 30-06 clocking the kind of numbers you are describing your barrel should go 3000 rounds before the accuracy falls off any from throat erosion. That is a conservative estimate it could go more maybe less. All this talk of chasing the throat is a bit moot. When you have to chase the throat your accuracy has fallen off and no amount of throat chasing will get it back. At that time you set back the barrel and rechamber then its like a new barrel again.
There was an article in Precision Shooting in 97 or 98 about throat erosion and barrel life. The article followed the life of 5 Shilen test barrels all in 308Win. They all did just fine testing bullet lots until around 4000 round mark best I recall. Perhaps I will dig through my magazines and find the article for you.
You tell me you are leaving the reamer selection up to the smith and then saying you are providing him with a dummy round. When the proper reamer is selected there is no need to alter the throat. Technically you are not leaving it up to the smith if you are providing a dummy round. You can rethroat a barrel after it is reamed and shot but a throat cut too long is a chamber ruined. Have him cut it with a good match reamer and see if it suits your needs first, that is what I would do if it were me. I will try and get some numbers on my rifle today and let you know what I find as far as seating depth distance to lands etc. </div></div>

I meant as far as using what reamer needs to be used. he told me to just get him a dummy round and he will chamber the barrel for it. I could get a reamer and send it to him I guess, and keep it for myself for future...

I would appreciate some numbers. I don't shoot too often, so this barrel will last me a very long time, I want it just right (don't we all?)

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

Ok I finally got to check distance to lands on my chamber. With the 208Amax and Lapua brass lands are jammed at 2.669". This leaves the 208 seated perfect in the case, the boattail is just below the neck shoulder junction leaving the neck supporting most of the bearing surface. I would call it perfect.
I understand you want it right but if you overthink this you could mess up. The amount of powder capacity you would gain by having a special throat and long seating depth is negligable. It isn't worth going beyond a normal match reamer. If you are having a rifle built it is worth trouble to have a reamer of your choosing. Just my opinion but I have had 3 custom guns built in the last 4 years and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[patriotoutlaw]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

When working up a load for any rifle I own, accuracy is my #1 priority. Tweaking seating depth helps achieve that goal. Depending on the bullets being used, that may be kissing the lands or backed off .030 or so. Some factory rifles have up to 1/2" of freebore. For anything other than a single shot, your magazine length will determine how long you can go. I have never had to provide a dummy round for my smith on any of my builds. Is he throating the chamber? Usaully the only time that comes into play is when using a long for caliber bullet.

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok I finally got to check distance to lands on my chamber. With the 208Amax and Lapua brass lands are jammed at 2.669". This leaves the 208 seated perfect in the case, the boattail is just below the neck shoulder junction leaving the neck supporting most of the bearing surface. I would call it perfect.
I understand you want it right but if you overthink this you could mess up. The amount of powder capacity you would gain by having a special throat and long seating depth is negligable. It isn't worth going beyond a normal match reamer. If you are having a rifle built it is worth trouble to have a reamer of your choosing. Just my opinion but I have had 3 custom guns built in the last 4 years and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. </div></div>

is that 2.669 with .308 or ogive oal for .30-06? That's def short (at least I think so)

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: patriotoutlaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When working up a load for any rifle I own, accuracy is my #1 priority. Tweaking seating depth helps achieve that goal. Depending on the bullets being used, that may be kissing the lands or backed off .030 or so. Some factory rifles have up to 1/2" of freebore. For anything other than a single shot, your magazine length will determine how long you can go. I have never had to provide a dummy round for my smith on any of my builds. Is he throating the chamber? Usaully the only time that comes into play is when using a long for caliber bullet. </div></div>

This was his email to me:

1st - My reamer has a short throat and I use a throating reamer to adjust to the customer’s required throat length. Send me a dummy round and I will chamber your barrel to that round.

2nd - Just an FYI….My 30-06 reamer is ground for .010” bullet jump to the rifling using a 168-grain Sierra Match King BTHP seated to 3.330” OAL. This OAL will fit Remington 700 and Savage long action stock magazines. The rest is SAMMI spec.
I do have a throater if you want the leade longer.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

That is a 30-06 built on a 700 Remington with a Serengetti chamber. 2.669", That is measured from the ogive, any other measurment means little to nothing in reference to jamming lands. As far as mag length the round has about .200" clearance in the magazine.
Again I will say. The 208 looks good in the case at this length. The bullet is fully suported by the cartridge neck. Only the boattail encroaches into the powder column.

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is a 30-06 built on a 700 Remington with a Serengetti chamber. 2.669", That is measured from the ogive, any other measurment means little to nothing in reference to jamming lands. As far as mag length the round has about .200" clearance in the magazine.
Again I will say. The 208 looks good in the case at this length. The bullet is fully suported by the cartridge neck. Only the boattail encroaches into the powder column. </div></div>

Ah ok. Do you know the oal? I'm just curious for my mG (and QL to run numbers)

I know it's all about ogives. I'd measure it myself by making a dummy, but I'm heading to work.

Do you have a serengetti reamer?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

OAL for the 208 with Lapua brass 3.428". OAL with 175SMK 3.303", ogive length with 175SMK 2.681" all max length touching lands.
I do not have a Serengetti reamer, my smith does.
If you have it throated much deeper than what I am seeing with my chamber, you run the risk of not being able to shoot the 175SMK without a long jump.

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

Yeah you're right. I was just playing with that. I set the 208 to 3.5 oal, and I can't shoot the 175smk unless I have a long jump.

I guess I have to sacrifice somewhere,

QL predicts I'll loose little bit of speed (10-30fps iirc) by going shorter oal (and higher compression) but this way I can shoot 175 grain bullets too. I guess I have to sacrifice somewhere. Do I want 190-208 bullets, or do I want to be able to shoot more varieties with a .10 jump?

Decisions decisions...

 

[doc76251]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

The decision for OAL of the round has already been made for you...... .1" or so from the internal length of the mag. The question will be "as your smith suggests" is where do you want the leade to be.

If you spec it to a 208 AMAX you may not be able to get to the lands w/ a 210 Berger and fit in the mag. Conversely you may not have enough boolet in the neck to shoot 175's.

I run both 210 Bergers and 208 AMAX with the same powder charge, to the same ogive (2.680") , and they are interchangeably accurate to 1 mile. Now that I think about it I have never measured the OAL of either of them but they work fine out of a GAP'd M-70 magazine box.

IMHO I would load all the possibles that you have available to a specific OAL (0.1" less than the mag) then measure the ogive for each. Write them down and compare them. I'd think about 60% of the average as a good place to put the leade but that's me. If you only plan to run heavy boolets probably 80%+ might be better.

.02 for the pot

Oh and you need to think about leade angles too........

Cheers,

Doc

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

Right,

I did think about vld bullets as they will need to seat further out cuz of the bullets' dimensions...

.1 inch shorter (3.7 mag length) means 3.6 oal for any cartridge I load.

What that also means is with such a long ass bullet, I can forget about < 190gr bullets. (not that it's a bad thing)

Honestly, what am I gaining with a longer cartridge? Less powder compression and tiny bit of speed, is there anything else?

Doc, bit confused about the example about leade example you gave, could you give me an example? I'll do it when I get home from work today.

If armorpl8 was at 3.428 oal with the ogive at 2.669 I guess you're right around 3.44 oal then...

I guess I'll do right around 3.43-3.45 which should give me a good middle for vld and 175s while working for 208 amax.

If I knew I was going to just shoot 208s, I would have just settled on .1 less than my mag which was 3.6

Could you get me a oal of a 210 Berger vld when you get a chance? Wanna know if with the 2.680 ogive it'll be around 3.5-3.6

Does your amax or the Berger touch the lands?

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

taseal-
I think most of the problem is your gunsmith is used to working with experienced shooters who have already settled on their match load and it's specs.

You have no idea what you really want as you have not shot the bullets you ponder enough to pick one to dance with.

If I might suggest, until you know what you are doing just run the 208 amax and let the gunsmith set the chamber for that.

You are waaaaaaaaay, I say again all after are- waaaaaaay over polishing this canonball.

There is a reason for the learning curve and I will bet you a shiny nickle you did not go from basic training to line unit squad leader. There was a few steps along the way like AIT and getting experience as a pivot ammo humper, first class.

I wouldnt sweat the VLDs for a training cycle or two.

Good Luck, Roger Wilcox, over and out!

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

You haven't seen my shooting through chrono thread have you? Hahaha

I over think things, but it's always worked for me

I haven't shot any 208s you're right... Only 175s

I do enjoy running numbers and a lot of research and questions though.

But I think it's best to ask these questions as I learn from them. They're very beneficial to me.

With the help of this thread, I realized I should be at 3.42-3.45 oal to shoot 208 and 175s

 

[taseal]

Re: Goal is to get the longest bullet seating?

ok, I'm done.

I just made 2 rounds, 1 with 175SMK and one with 208 amax.

both are very close in ogive (amax 2.813/175smk 2.815)

they are actually very close in OAL too, but the plastic tip on the amax makes it longer...

OAL for both are
amax - 3.549
175smk - 3.400

Good enough. I'm happy. That gives upto .1 for erosion, which is plenty I think