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Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

L

LAKsupply

Private
Minuteman
Jul 28, 2009
48
0
44
Wyo
Based on some advice I received here along with some others' input, I'm going to put together an 6.5 Grendel AR. The ballistics are all-around better than the 6.8 SPC, and appear to even beat the .308 (although with a lighter bullet) at extended ranges. BC and SD are great... small platform... lighter than an AR-10... I think I'm sold.

I want to be able to use the same gun I practice with for extended ranges as a hunting rifle under some circumstances. I think there are some benefits to being that familiar with the gun/loads/optics up here where we can run into 500+ yard shots on big game because of the wide open spaces. Question is... do I want the 24" barrel or the 20" barrel? I think I can put together a 24" barreled unit that weighs somewhere in the 10# neighborhood with some of the optional accessories removed. It would appear that there is not enough weight savings by dropping 4" of barrel to justify the loss in velocity. I want to be able to get out to 800+ yards... 1k would be nice, but weight is an issue. I'm still kind of leaning towards the 24" though... am I on the right track? Maybe I've overlooked something with the 6.8 (just don't see anything close to the BC of the 6.5)? Any thoughts?
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

LAK do you reload? or are you planning on purchasing factory ammo? I would go with the 24" barrel if weight difference isn't that big since any extra velocity will benefit them 6.5s.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Punching paper and hitting steel at 800-850 yards can be done with a 14.5" grendel, but I wouldn't try taking any big game at that range with a 6.5G. A 24" build will likely run you 12-13 lbs with optics.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I have a 24" bbl 6.5 Grendel & love the accuracy it delivers. if weight isn't an issue with you the extra few inches will help velocity due to the lack of case capacity. The additional weight of a 24" versus a 20" isn't that much.

600 yards is a long distance to take big game with that round, look at the published ballistic tables at alexander arms website.

You can go to 1k yards with it for target shooting but there are calibers better suited for shooting groups @ 1k yds.

Reloading for this caliber is a must in my opinion due to cost savings & availability of factory ammo. Besides you should tailor a load to your rifle for the best accuracy in both hunting tips & target tips.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I have a 19.5 inch Grendel, and its a great hunting setup. I sold my AR-10 after putting the Grendel together since the Grendel is a LOT lighter, and a lot more accurate. If you are looking for a 500+ yard hunting gun, the Grendel will do it, but I think there are better options for that distance. For 500 yards and below the grendel is great. The 19.5 will do 800 yards, and even 1000 for that matter, but I would only shoot paper at that distance.

Here is my setup
smile.gif
The center dot on The EOTech hits the target everytime from 0-300 yards.
3844720730_c0fc01d423_o.jpg
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I've got the 19.5" on mine...like the overall package , but when I go to 1K it would be nice to have a few extra FPS of the 24".

One thing that I [and others] have found is to stay within Bill Alexander's recommended reloading parameters...things can get a little dicey trying to push this ctg.

You might want to spend some time over on
6.5grendel.com

...A lot of good info there

FWIW

Wes in AZ
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I love the 6.5 Grendel I had just one together myself.
Dont believe when you hear you <span style="font-weight: bold">cant</span> go out to 1K with the 6.5 Grendel cuz I know plenty of guys that do. I am very glad I built this instead of an AR-10.
It one of my favorite ARs but ammo and parts are very hard to come by.
The pic below is the 6.5 I just built. (<span style="font-weight: bold">specs below</span>)

Grendelpic2.jpg


65Grendelpic1-1.jpg


65Grendelpic5-1.jpg


Vltor MUR1 Upper
Liberty Tactical Lower
Rock River 2- Stage Trigger
KNS Anti-roll pins
Sabre Defence 18" bbl
Sabre Defence Gill Brake
Sabre Defence Matched Bolt assy
BCM Bolt Carrier (auto)
BCM Charging Handle
Badger Tac-Latch
Larue 1.5 SPR optic mount
Larue Bi-pod mount
Daniel Defense M4 12.0 Rail
Daniel Defense low pro gas block
Ergo grip w/ palm shelf
Magpul PRS stock
Magpul Rail panels
AA Mags
Nightforce 3.5-15X50 NXS
Harris 6-9" Bi pod
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

It's a great round with the right bullets. Otherwise you are just wasting your time. In comparison with the 6.8 SPC that is the single factor that separates these two. There are very high BC bullets in midweight. There aren't in 6.8 SPC. All of the like bullet weights give just about the same velocities. 85-85, 90-90 100-100, 108-115, 120 and 123 even 130 and 140. The two cartridges are just about dead even. The difference is when you push a 6.5 123 Scenar @ 2550 and a 6.8 125 gr. anything at the same velocity the Scenar will win because downrange it has better BC. No one except Berger makes a super high BC bullet in 6.8 (.277")

Also, you need to keep in mind that 6.5 G brass is expensive and hard to come by. It is small primer. You can neck up and form 6mm PPC or you can neck down and form 7.62x39. Those are large primer cases. You have to remember to separate large and small primer cases. No using AA loads with Wolf (any large primer case i.e. IMI), or vice-versa.

My 6.5 G was the 24" overwatch. If you intend to shoot long range this is the length I would go with. Otherwise again, it's six of one half dozen of the other if you go with a 6.5 or 6.8.

I love both of these rounds for what they do. But chose the 6.5 because of the long range capability.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Yep, needless to say, a 6mmAR (dunno if Turbo or not) is pretty high in my wish list.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

lotta, lotta high BC 6mm bullets out there too. 6mm AR/AR Turbo good choice as well.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

The 24 inch barrel only gives marginal velocity increase over the 19.5 incher. At 1000 yards the difference is 30 fps. Using 123 grain scenars the 24 is going 1300 fps vs 1270 fps from the 19.5 barrel.
I would certainly go with the 19.5 for the overall handiness of the rifle and 30 fps is hardly something I would miss.

http://www.alexanderarms.com/grendel_ballistics.pdf
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Thanks for all the replies... So what's the vote on the 20" vs 24"? Really only 30fps at 1000 difference?

I do reload... will be getting dies for the presses first thing. More than adequate 6.5 bullet selection. Already have plenty of primers and powder.

I don't plan on shooting something at 600 yards, but 500 or so isn't uncommon for deer and whatnot out here. I wouldn't take that shot unless I was confident.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I'd still go for the 24".

Also look at the energy & drop(path) in the table. 30 FPS is really nothing but the 24" has 10.94 inches less of drop @ 1000. Don't know if this matters to you.

Keep in mind this table was made using a factory test rifle using factory loads. Your data will be different when you load for it.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: awp762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
600 yards is a long distance to take big game with that round, look at the published ballistic tables at alexander arms website.

You can go to 1k yards with it for target shooting but there are calibers better suited for shooting groups @ 1k yds.
</div></div>

How practical is it to take big game at that distance any way? I love this round, but people make it out to be "Superman". Mark Larue took an elk at 400+ with the Grendel, and I thought that was getting out there. Long kills are possible, but where do you draw the line for an ethical kill, even with a much larger caliber weapon?
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

FWIW, I just got a AA Overwatch. The rifle I have was purchased a couple years ago and it has the LW barrel. I have both AA 123 Scenar's and BHA 123 SMK's for it and, in my rifle, both average slightly under .700" @ 100. I have not had the time/chance to go longer but plan to this weekend.

I had a box of the Wolf 123 sp that I used to zero/confirm, and it was not good in my rifle. Not good at all... As I have no interest in blasting ammo, and another reason I will describe down below, I will not use any more Wolf.

The ammo and brass are expensive and hard to find, but you CAN find them. You just have to be willing to pay $80+ per 100 for Lapua or wait until AA has their headstamped Lapua in stock for $69.

The dies are available from Midway as I received mine yesterday. I went with the Forster as I use them in just about everything else. Problem is, and I had read this before on 6.5grendel.com, the Wolf brass (PPU) will not be sized down enough to hold the bullet. The AA brass (Lapua) runs .2615" after sizing, and the Wolf runs .264" after sizing. I would need to get the Redding fl sizer if I will use the PPU brass. I don't know if it is worth the $52.99 more just to be able to use PPU brass.
eek.gif
You can always just buy the Redding dies in the first place if you prefer them. The Lee dies that AA and Midway sells are available too, but paying $52.99 for Lee dies makes me cringe.

The AA brass is small rifle primer with a very small flash hole, and the Wolf is large rifle primer with a sewer pipe for a flash hole. That would be your reason for treating the brass/loads differently.

I do really like my Grendel and as with every other rifle/caliber I load for, I will go in whole hog. Hell, it's only money right....
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ninpo2006</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 24 inch barrel only gives marginal velocity increase over the 19.5 incher. At 1000 yards the difference is 30 fps. Using 123 grain scenars the 24 is going 1300 fps vs 1270 fps from the 19.5 barrel.
I would certainly go with the 19.5 for the overall handiness of the rifle and 30 fps is hardly something I would miss.

http://www.alexanderarms.com/grendel_ballistics.pdf</div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: awp762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd still go for the 24".

Also look at the energy & drop(path) in the table. 30 FPS is really nothing but the 24" has 10.94 inches less of drop @ 1000. Don't know if this matters to you.

Keep in mind this table was made using a factory test rifle using factory loads. Your data will be different when you load for it.</div></div>

I would need to qualify my position on that, in that I never worked with the 19.5-20" barrels. I did help a friend load with his 16" barrel. We noted a big velocity dropoff with that compared to my 24" overwatch.

However, this was still a viable 600 yd. gun if the wind wasn't going to blow you into yesterday. As an overall round evaluated from point blank to 600 yds. the 16" barrel was adequate. Given the SHTF test it did alright. I prefer the 24" barrel but it wasn't nearly as wieldy in tight spots. And it was somewhat heavy. Not yet ten pounds with a Meopta 3-12x56 on it though, but somewhere around there. Ammo was also a lot lighter than .308. I put 200 rds. of .308 in my ruck for a short road march and though WTF!...How did I used to carry this?? The Grendel ammo runs about 1.5 lb. per 100 more than .223. doable. You have to remember too to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges when comparing the 6.5 Grendel to the .308. It outperforms most of the lower weight bullets but not the upper weight bullets. Again, heavier platform, heavier ammo, more recoil. Cost at this point is subjective. If the 6.5 Grows you'll see costs coming in line with .308.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: awp762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd still go for the 24".

Also look at the energy & drop(path) in the table. 30 FPS is really nothing but the 24" has 10.94 inches less of drop @ 1000. Don't know if this matters to you.

</div></div>

A 24 inch barrel feels so much more front end heavy than a 20. Even if the weight isn't much more the balance point is further out making the AR feel unbalanced. If you are ONLY going to be shooting with a bipod then it won't matter but if you want to do anything else with it you will regret getting the 24.

A drop of 10 inches at 1000 yards is nothing. You dial your dope in and shoot. How often are you going to be shooting that far anyway?

Do yourself a favor and get the shorter barrel. Resist the urge to listen to others telling you to get the 24. They only want you to suffer with them.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Not really that interested in going to 1000 with it... if I could get to 800+ I'd be happy... Maybe punch a few holes in paper at 1000, but not critical. From what I'm reading it appears that a 20" would still be effective at 800+ yards...?
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LAKsupply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not really that interested in going to 1000 with it... if I could get to 800+ I'd be happy... Maybe punch a few holes in paper at 1000, but not critical. From what I'm reading it appears that a 20" would still be effective at 800+ yards...?</div></div>

According the numbers published by AA you won't lose much. I wasn't far off his numbers but most of my stuff was in 10F or 20F weather. The best powder for the Grendel, and I tested all of them that I could, was usually 2520 and that always has a drop when it comes to temps. Another good powder though was 4895, and H4895x is very stable temp-wise. I got as good and sometimes better than what was published with that. I do believe that 4895 was one of the best powders in the large primer cases I tested.

As far as suffering because the barrel is heavy? I don't think so. If you want a lighter more maneuverable gun in close quarters, then the long barrel is a problem. I kept my left hand right at the rear of the handguards (standard A2) when shooting offhand and that's about where the balance point is. If you like the balance point further back then so be it. I would sooner choose the barrel length you like for your needs rather than go by that, though.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Care to provide your recipe and chrono data with the 4895? I take it you are using the PPU cases? How did it work in the Lapua brass?

Thanks,
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I build 18 inch 6.5's and shoot them with sub MOA out to 600. 20inch guns are ok too, but I personally think the 24 is too much barrel.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Have looked at the Grendal but was never that impressed with the compromises inherent in the round. That being said I did put together a 6mm based off the Grendal (6 RAT, Refined AR Technology). Makes a small format AR into a decent rifle.

Still working up loads but so far have a 87 gr. V-max (.4 BC) load @ 2925 that I use out to 600 yd. and several loads using the 105 A-max, 105 Lapua, 108 Berger and 107 SMK in the 2800 fps range, that I've shot to 850 yd. Easy to hold shots in the A zone of an IPSC target at 500 yd, 1/2 moa accuracy is pretty typical. Haven't weighed it but feels about 1.5 - 2 LB. more than standard 20" .223 AR, part of that is the scope.

Specs are:
22" lite contour barrel (.780 chamber to gas block, .750 gas block, .730 to muzzle, threaded 5/8 X 24, 1 in 7.5 twist Krieger by White Oak.
1.8 - 10 USO scope.
Hornaday comp dies.

I really like this rifle, everyone who shoots it has a big smile after.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Bronco, sounds like a pretty interesting gun you got there. Show us some pics when you get a chance.

One reason i like the grendel over the 6mmar is the 6.5 bullet, just personal preference though.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Thanks Scott, don't know if you could tell from my post but I'm really liking this rifle.

It looks like a regular AR outside of the 2" longer barrel and slightly larger exit hole. I did weigh it (bathroom scales) with scope and bipod comes in at 12 lb., really didn't think it was that heavy, balances well.

Pics are of rifle and cartridges lined up.
Cartridges are left to right, loaded 6 RAT with 87 gr. V-Max, virgin 6.5 Grendal brass, and 69 gr. .223. You can see how far the shoulder gets blown out. Holds about 3 more grains of powder than stock Grendal case.

IMG_1385.jpg

IMG_1386.jpg
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DHD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Care to provide your recipe and chrono data with the 4895? I take it you are using the PPU cases? How did it work in the Lapua brass?

Thanks,</div></div>

I loaded up to 28 gr. of H4895x in Fed, IMI, and Wolf cases (all large primer) for a velocity avg. of 2520. After reading what AA said, I bumped that back to 27.5 so as not to be over pressure with the case. There were some bolt failures. When Bill Alexander checked them out they were all due to overloading. Honestly, that is kind of scary in that you could have a bolt failure @ 1/2 gr. too high powder charge. But, bottom line I only lost 30 fps going back to 27.5. Out of my 24" barrel it got 2492.

As far as the Lapua cases went, plain and simple, AA2520 was the go-to powder for best velocity. It has just the right speed for the case and the small flashhole ignites it just right. I tried powders just faster or slower, double and single base, and the velocity dropped. My problem was it's temp sensitivity.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bronco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Scott, don't know if you could tell from my post but I'm really liking this rifle.

It looks like a regular AR outside of the 2" longer barrel and slightly larger exit hole. I did weigh it (bathroom scales) with scope and bipod comes in at 12 lb., really didn't think it was that heavy, balances well.

Pics are of rifle and cartridges lined up.
Cartridges are left to right, loaded 6 RAT with 87 gr. V-Max, virgin 6.5 Grendal brass, and 69 gr. .223. You can see how far the shoulder gets blown out. Holds about 3 more grains of powder than stock Grendal case.

IMG_1385.jpg

IMG_1386.jpg



</div></div>

Bronco,

How much taper did they leave in the case body? It seems like they left a little bit which might help it feed better. I know the AR/AR turbo had more taper blown out of the case than the Grendel.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Sandwarrior, per my calipers unloaded virgin Grendal had .014 taper from web to shoulder, 6 RAT reload has .011. I have around 500 rounds through the rifle with no feeding issues. Have shot it in one 100 round comp with perfect feeding. I use AA mags and have a couple 6.8 that work also.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Just so you guys know, the new manufacturer for Grendel Brass and Ammo is Hornady.

Brass

Ammo

This has been confirmed by Hornady.

Also with Remington offering the ACR in 6.5 Grendel I wouldn't be surprised if they also start offering brass and ammo.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

That is good to know that Hornady is going to be coming out with brass and ammo. I just went on to Midsouth's website to check on the brass. It not in stock yet, but I signed up to have them email me when they get some.

As was posted the AA2520 is a GREAT powder for the grendel. I have used a few different powders also with Lapua brass and 123 grn Lapua Scenars and 107 grn SMK (working with this bullet right now).

Here is a photo of my Grendel. The upper was done by GA Precision.


GAP6.5.JPG
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bronco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior, per my calipers unloaded virgin Grendal had .014 taper from web to shoulder, 6 RAT reload has .011. I have around 500 rounds through the rifle with no feeding issues. Have shot it in one 100 round comp with perfect feeding. I use AA mags and have a couple 6.8 that work also. </div></div>

Thanks.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

The 123 Lapua Scenar doesnt go sub-sonic untill after 1400yards.
(fact)
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Thanks Sandwarrior.

I have the data from AA and I have some 2520 and Tac being held for me at a shop. These two are the fastest powders, by a long shot, for the 6.5G it seems. Wish Varget and 4895 would give similar velocities.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DHD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Sandwarrior.

I have the data from AA and I have some 2520 and Tac being held for me at a shop. These two are the fastest powders, by a long shot, for the 6.5G it seems. Wish Varget and 4895 would give similar velocities.

</div></div>

The one big name powder I never tried was Varget. However, in the large primer cases H4895x worked about the best. So if you run short on cases and have to find 7.62x39...load with that instead of 2520. I never got the same results in the large primer cases as with the small.

Edit:

This gets me to thinking that possibly this is where barrel length does come in and the faster ignition of the 2520 may work better in a 20" barrel as opposed to a 24". Food for thought
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Good info here... thanks guys.

One last thing I've been pondering... I want to use 140-144gr bullets in whatever rig I buy. Although I can't find it in print I've heard the 6.5 is a bit more sensitive about twist rate. Does anybody have experience with twist rate on these? I may want to use the lighter 123gr, but I don't want to knock myself out of using the heavier bullets. Really a barrel that would work well with 120gr bullets AND UP would be optimal. Any FB on what twist rate I would want in either the 20" or 24" for that purpose?
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

If I remember correctly you will likely want a 1:8" twist for those bullets, maybe even a 1:7.5", but here's the kicker. I don't believe those bullets can be loaded to mag length. The other problem you will run into is that the grendel case capacity is too small to make the heavier 6.5s really shine. I have hear of people using the 133gr JLK VLD, but not sure if they are single feeding them or not.

T
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LAKsupply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good info here... thanks guys.

One last thing I've been pondering... I want to use 140-144gr bullets in whatever rig I buy. Although I can't find it in print I've heard the 6.5 is a bit more sensitive about twist rate. Does anybody have experience with twist rate on these? I may want to use the lighter 123gr, but I don't want to knock myself out of using the heavier bullets. Really a barrel that would work well with 120gr bullets AND UP would be optimal. Any FB on what twist rate I would want in either the 20" or 24" for that purpose? </div></div>

I tried a few of the Berger 140 and Sierra 140/142's that I had on hand and found that velocity suffered to where it wasn't feasibly to use that heavy of a bullet in that case. I personally came to the conclusion that the heaviest bullet I would suggest is the 130 Norma Golden Target.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I have the 18" 1-7.7" twist barrel from Sabre and it loves the
123gr. Lapua Scenars
The Berger VLD's at long range are amazing.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

The 123 has been great so far at 600 yards...
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

123gr Lapua works great for me. With my bbl the 130gr bergers will have to be single fed (loaded long)to avoid using up too much case capacity.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I just picked up a Lilja 1-9 twist 6.5 and scanning through the web for solid info on what weight slugs its going to like.

Alexander's 24" Overwatch is built with a 1-9 , while the 18" are using a 1-8 .

I'd like to run as heavy a round as possible with this 1-9 pipe and kinda having a hard time getting info on it.I'd really like to run Lapua's 123's if possible.

Any help ?

ETA.....this isnt going on an AR platform.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

Lapua 123's won't be an issue. Might be worth looking at 65grendel.com. You will find a ton of useful resources specific to the Grendel. The user JonA and others have reported success with bullets up to 140 grains.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tolson68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lapua 123's won't be an issue. Might be worth looking at 65grendel.com. You will find a ton of useful resources specific to the Grendel. </div></div>


Yepper........Ive perused and commented a few times over on the Grendel site.Pretty nice place.
6BR.com seems to have the best selection of tech info.
 
Re: Going 6.5 Grendel... need some input...

I just built a Grendel in a Remm. action. Be sure to be able to seat the bullet out far enough. My COAL is 2.450. In a AR platform will be less if using their reamer. Get ahold of Dave at Pacfic Tool and Guide. I did a 8.5 twist and handles the 123 great. I haven't chrono the gun yet but hopefully getting around 2600. From what I have read this is close to where I will end up. It is a neat little round Good Luck
 
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