Got a call from the ATF today...

[kbrady]

I got a call from the ATF today, Tracing department. She asked me if I could send them a copy of the 4473 where I had sold a Springfield XD. 40 handgun. I explained to her I wasn't a dealer and with my type of FFL, C&R FFL, I couldn't do any kind of transaction like that. I asked her to read me the FFL number and the info she had, and sure enough......it was actually my info. She said she assumed the dealer mistyped or misread his FFL number and she was going to retrace it to figure out where they messed up. She thanked me for contacting her, she had left a message on my machine, and she would keep me updated until they found out what was up, and to have a wonderful day! Definitely not the type of ATF employee that I expected.

Was just wondering if anybody else has had this happen and how it turned out.

Kelly

 

[Magforce]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

I have the C&R and havent had anything like that happen ever thats concerning how the numbers can be that close that someone can get crossed up. You would think that a C&R FFL Number would have a whole different series of numbers or different Key. But hey at least she was nice enough about it.

 

[SmokinAce]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

That is some scary stuff there. How does someone give the wrong FFL number.

 

[kbrady]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

I didn't know it was possible for the transaction to go through with that type of mix-up. She informed me that the handgun should have been shipped in late March, and I told her I have not received anything. I was amazed that they didn't try to make it out like I did something wrong. It was a good first experience with them, even if it weird and has got me worried lol. I'll keep this thread updated when and if I get more information. I will be treating this like someone used my SS # for something just in case. The ATF isn't anybody you want giving you a hard time I hear!

Kelly

 

[Guest]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmokinAce</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is some scary stuff there. How does someone give the wrong FFL number. </div></div>

When everything is not on the up an up.

We had a local shop selling guns w/o correct paper work on the true buyer. Seems those that were buying properly, were having extras added to their paper work after they left the shop.

He was good, but in the long run he could not walk on water, a 100 dollar hand gun that was picked up at a flee market brought down his house of cards. He is not the first nor will he be the last to run this game on the public. It's a brave world out there, and all do not play within the rules, hence the perceived need for LE.

 

[Cleaner]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kbrady</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was amazed that they didn't try to make it out like I did something wrong. It was a good first experience with them, even if it weird and has got me worried lol.

Kelly </div></div>

It aint over yet friend. Twer it me Id be feverishly relocating iany item I didnt want confiscated. I dont think those guys even need a search warrant. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Just sayin

 

[kbrady]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cleaner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kbrady</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was amazed that they didn't try to make it out like I did something wrong. It was a good first experience with them, even if it weird and has got me worried lol.

Kelly </div></div>

It aint over yet friend. Twer it me Id be feverishly relocating iany item I didnt want confiscated. I dont think those guys even need a search warrant. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Just sayin</div></div>

I was thinking along those lines.........they can stop by anytime they want, unannounced, and check out everything you have. I've taken precautions.

 

[CDiPrecision]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

I had one customer buy ten Beretta 40 cal pistols. I just did the transfer, so I did all the paperwork, and sent in the Multiple form..About 3 weeks later, I got 2 agents on my doorstep, big guy and small lady. Both were nice, but they wanted to know some about this transaction. I told them I just did the transfer, but I had all the paperwork on where they came from ,and everything else. So I made copies, and they were out the door.. It kind of surprised me, I was expecting maybe a call, but sending people in person really kinds made me take notice.

 

[kbrady]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

This was more of a courtesy call, requesting some additional information about a transaction. She was very helpful because I asked some questions about how and why this happened. I'd like to keep this polite, and over the phone........I will be ready if an agent stops by the house unannounced though. My books are in order and I'm not worried about anything that I've done, or what I have. What I am worried about is that this isn't just accidentally dialing a wrong number, someone used my actual FFL# for a transaction and I don't want to have to prove that it wasn't me. Hopefully she can take care of it and find where the mistake was made. Will keep you all posted.

Kelly

 

[BigDKC]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kbrady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I was thinking along those lines.........they can stop by anytime they want, unannounced, and check out everything you have. I've taken precautions. </div></div>

This isn't true on a C&R from my understanding. Granted I just got mine, but my understanding is the ATF can only visit you (without a warrant of course) AFTER calling and setting up an appointment at either your place of residence (or where ever the C&R was addressed to) OR their closest local field office. It was my impression that they could not show up un-announced without a warrant. If your one of the other FFL type's then this is not the case.

Again, I am new to this but it's still fresh in my mind.. But I could be wrong.

 

[kbrady]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

I have the C&R FFL and you might be right, I don't remember. I'm just going to assume the ATF is like any other government agency and can likely get away with whatever they want. Also, if there was some kind of investigation where they needed to stop by the house, I'm sure they could obtain a warrant for those purposes.

Kelly

 

[camp carnage]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

I thought the atf could even open fire on law abiding citizens without beig held to account

 

[BigDKC]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

lol both good points, and I DO get both of your points!

but it is of my opinion that if you play their game for their pieces of paper, you have to at least hope that they will be following their own rules on situations like this. I didn't find any references at all online when researching the C&R of this not being the case. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but of all the instances of someone's C&R activities being checked up on that I read, all of them were handled appropriately. Most of the comments on those situations all reflected your same opinion of the agents demeanor. You stated yourself Kelly, she was courteous and friendly, and NOT what you expected.

If there was really that much of a concern on the situation they would have already gotten that warrant and just stopped on by!

But as I mentioned I DO get where your coming from..

 

[Hateca]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

The "girl" or whoever is calling is most likely not an enforcement agent at all, but a person charged with doing the trace, and most of the time they have no idea why the trace was even initiated to begin with.

They’re not suspicious or looking to make a judgment call of the FFL. They get the information from the FFL and pass it along to whoever is requesting the information. What happens after that will depend on whether or not they got the information they were calling about regarding the trace.

In most cases and I mean 99% of the time ATF will only do a trace when requested by LEO if the weapon was used in a crime or was sized from someone who shouldn't have had it, like a parolee, and said person had no good explanation, and the LEO suspect a crime such as an unreported stolen weapon or whatever.

I have had a handful of traces called in over 20+ some years and every time all they wanted was the info off of the 4473 and nothing else, and I never heard from them again about it.

As a FFL holder if you have more then a few "unresolved" traces you will get a visit from ATF, and next time your license comes up you might just find it won't be renewed.

 

[45.308]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

This is a good one, I have done a couple dozen traces over the years. To my understanding, sounds like an error in chain of commerce, an FFL logged the serial number A&D to your FFL. Should be easy for the ATF to find the error, start with Springfield import date, they logged out to what FFL on what date which could be a wholesaler, then follow the chain of commerce to the error in A&D. If every bodies A&D are managed like they should be, takes just a few minutes / phone calls to find the error.

The ATF should not have any record of the serial number matched to 4473.

I would call ATF CS ext 2 and ask how my NTN are assigned to your FFL? If you have NTN assigned to your C&R FFL, then you have problems and get a lawyer.

Its easy well almost to steal or fraud a transfer, you fill out 4473 in said gun shop, get a proceed, once you leave someone now adds more firearms to your 4473, firearms get logged in A&D to you...firearms now follow chain of commerce to a citizen but in actually a thief has them and does what ever. I know about 42 firearms were done this way before being he got caught. When you fill out a 4473, ensure before you leave the gun shop lines are drawn through the empty boxes block 24-28 so only the firearm(s) you are having transferred are on the 4473.

The new MHF has a block for reason why someone is transferring 10 AR, 10 MKIII, 10 10/22 if its good to go like Christmas presents, pot latch, banquets, etc to hopefully help why.

A sort of friend, well he actually worked for me after this, had his FFL gun shop and NTC called for a trace, he said not without a search warrant per the Constitution. Sometime later ATF inspector showed up, after the fines he was given he had to close shop. He stood up for the rights of this citizen but lost. in the end.

 

[kbrady]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

Hopefully this will be resolved with no "unofficial" blemish in my record. This is the first instance where I have received any notification since getting my C&R FFL. I have bought/sold a few firearms and have not had a problem because I followed the rules. Maybe this will work itself out.

Kelly

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

you do know that you will burn in hell for this oversight ?

 

[GasLight]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

From your original post, something defiantely seems out of place. Whenever a sale is made, the FFL gives the NICS system the FFL number and CODE WORD. If they don't match then they make you repeat it. I have had them mistake my FFL number on more than one occassion, and have had to repeat it because the code word and number don't match. They are entering this number into the computer at the time, which is what would bring up a prompt, so there isn't really a way to get around this with the wrong number. Since you don't have a code word since you can't sell via 4473, then I don't see how it could ever happen as a mistake in their system.

That said, I do remember one time when I got audited, a very nice lady from the ATF showed up and wanted to look through everything, and do a firearms count. I inquired about her giving me notice, and she references a call I had received a few days earlier inquiring about a transaction. She said something along the lines that that was my 'heads up' that she would be coming by for an audit. I wish I could remember more clearly the details surrounding the audit, but it was relatively painless, and the agent was a very nice gal. I was also cooperative and had nothing to hide, so it went quick and easy.

You will have to keep us updated on what turns up with the whole thing.

Dave

 

[kbrady]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

That was my point from the beginning, I cannot use my FFL to buy/sell firearms such as this handgun and I don't see how it could have been a mistake in keying in the actual license number. I'm not an expert, but I'm sure before the transaction was finished, everything would have to match up and be on the up and up. That being said, I've done absolutely nothing that I don't want them to know about, I've toed the line in all of my transactions and have it all documented. I will consider that conversation a "red flag" and I won't be caught off guard if they happen to find other mistakes or even show up here.

When I know more, I'll be sure to post it here for you guys.

Kelly

 

[45.308]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kbrady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That was my point from the beginning, I cannot use my FFL to buy/sell firearms such as this handgun and I don't see how it could have been a mistake in keying in the actual license number. I'm not an expert, but I'm sure before the transaction was finished, everything would have to match up and be on the up and up. That being said, I've done absolutely nothing that I don't want them to know about, I've toed the line in all of my transactions and have it all documented. I will consider that conversation a "red flag" and I won't be caught off guard if they happen to find other mistakes or even show up here.

When I know more, I'll be sure to post it here for you guys.

Kelly </div></div>

This is not about a search done / call into the FBI with a 4473 that you requested. By law, no information other than type of firearm is given when a search is requested other than handgun, long gun or other, serial number has nothing to do with a search from an FFL. The only way ATF knows what firearms any FFL has in their A&D is by chain of commerce. Somewhere along this chain another FFL that could be Springfield logged that serial number to your FFL. This is how ATF can track and know where serial numbers are along the chain.

Springfield has the date this serial number entered into country and into their A&D.

Springfield logs this serial number out from their AD to what ever FFL is taking possession next.

This FFL logs the serial number into their A&D taking possession.

This goes on until an FFL logs the serial number out to a citizen. This is where ATF loses the chain.

The FFL before you must have in their possession a copy of your FFL.

I always check on EZ to ensure I have the correct FFL number with matching address and the FFL is current before I log in my A&D for an FFL transfer. Someone along this chain used your CR FFL to transfer this serial number to you.

It will take ATF a few calls starting with Springfield asking what FFL took possession in their A&D next. Somewhere along this chain an FFL will give your FFL number and the oops should be found. Sounds like sloppy FFL A&D management....hopefully a crime was not committed on purpose using your CR FFL to steal firearms.

Good luck!

 

[kbrady]

Re: Got a call from the ATF today...

I was skeptical that it was an honest mistake from the get-go. I know there are mistakes every once in a while but I had the feeling when I was talking to her on the phone that someone purposely used my FFL # to make this transaction. I hope, if it was done illegally, that they take care of the problem and whoever did it. If this keeps happening the responsible people that toe the line will have more and more hoops to jump through when dealing with the ATF in regards to FFL's. And that is ALL we need, more bullshit and red tape to go through. I just wanted a license so I could buy a milsurp rifle every once in a while and have it sent to my house instead of going through a dealer. The license is only 30 bucks for 3 years and a couple of transactions and it has paid for itself. If it turns up that some people are stealing C&R FFL numbers and using them to do something against the law, I can only imagine that the ATF will end up making that type of license impossible to get.

Kelly