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Rifle Scopes Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

M

mdmp5

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • May 7, 2009
    5,086
    2,507
    #1
    I don't have the time or resources for an extensive comprehensive review at the current time, but I just wanted to share my good once over if this scope. In my opinion, it is a superb value; excellent glass, great reticle, great clicks, great illumination. I waited about 14 months for this scope, and I am glad I did. It is mounted on my M1a right now, and it looks great. Can't wait to shoot it.

    mike
     
    #5
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    Got my 24x SFP yesterday scope looks like a great piece of gear. I am excited!!! Still waiting on my SFP 16x from Cameraland about ready to cancel
     
    #8
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    It happened...shitty iphone pics, but it is the best I can do right now

    2c2c43f1.jpg

    5e3a9c49.jpg
     
    #15
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reticle straight or canted? Any particles or defects that are visible inside or outside?</div></div>

    Reticle is straight from what I can tell. I don't see any defects either. Glass is very clear. Of course, I will have a much better handle on how good it is when I get it to the range. But with the weather up here and my hellish schedule, that might not be for a little while. I think Vortex produced a real winner here.
     
    #20
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    Those are Smith Enterprise wire edm rings in the lowest height they had. With a 50mm objective, you can go as low as they make them. Plenty of clearance, and you still need a cheek rest to get your head up high enough. I am gonna throw the rifle in a Sage stock one day hopefully.
     
    #25
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntersedge89</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is it that the FFP scopes are usually more expensive than SFP scopes? Are they more expensive to manufacture? </div></div>


    This is somewhat conjecture, but educated conjecture, so take it for what it's worth.

    FFP simply moves the reticle to a different part of the scope. In the bigger scheme of things, they are probably no less expensive to manufacture IF you can match economy of scale of the SFP. Numbers of FFP scopes compared to SFP scopes are probably fewer in the bigger picture, so the cost will be higher.

    However, with something like the PST, the target audience is probably a much higher percentage of FFP, I would think, so this doesn't necessarily hold true. Here I think you probably see the "Tactical" pricing rule in effect. Because they can and we do.

    .02

    John
     
    #26
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    thats kind of what I was thinking because I've seen some other manufactures scopes and the price is about the same for either FFP or SFP... so maybe it is just the "tactical" pricing
     
    #28
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    it may be some tactical pricing and i doubt that it cost any more to manufacture a scope with ffp vs sfp but its a big conveinence (at least i think it is) to have ffp so they know they can get more money for them since people who want it will pay for it, especially with the already low price point of this scope.
     
    #29
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntersedge89</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thats kind of what I was thinking because I've seen some other manufactures scopes and the price is about the same for either FFP or SFP... so maybe it is just the "tactical" pricing </div></div>

    I could be wrong, but in my mind, one of the worst offenders of this is NF. Look at the difference in price between a 3.5-15 NXS and an F1. Really? $500? Can you say "gouging?". That's a significant "tactical" penalty to pay, *ESPECIALLY* when you consider that the NXS is their "tactical" line to begin with!

    Rant off.

    Sorry for the thread derail. We now return you to your normally scheduled programming.

    John
     
    #31
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntersedge89</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would be cool if someone some that knows more about scope manufacturing would chime in on this and set us straight </div></div>

    That *might* be informative, it might not... it depends completely on the who. I would trust noone who works for a scope company to be completely forthright about costs and pricing. Those tend to be held very close to the vest.

    John
     
    #32
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    I talked to NF themselves about this last week. I was wondering the same thing "Why does FFP cost so much more"? They told me it takes alot longer to get the reticle in the Front Focal Plane, and the job is slighty meticulous.

    Now this leads me to wonder, HOW MUCH ARE THEY CHARGING AN HOUR TO PUT A PIECE OF GLASS IN A DIFFERENT POSITION? I could understand charging a little more, like what Vortex has done in their PST series ($150 more for FFP to be exact), but $500 more for the F1 FFP...come on now NF, lets hear one of your reps chime in and convince us you're not taking advantage of the market with this 'new' technology!

    I know that if we were questioning Vortex, Scott@Vortex would gladly jump in and tell us the exact reasoning behind it!! And that's why I'm totalling sold on Vortex, as a product line, and as a company.

    Just my $.02,
    Scott
     
    #33
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    +1 thats also why im going with vortex. I think that the huge price increase is NF riding their name. They know that people want NF scopes and there are many who are insanely loyal to this line (which i dont think is bad, wrong, or unjustified for the record) but they realize that those who are die hard NF people will go back to NF when they have an interest in a FFP scope. Plus, the F1 was/is used by some special operations groups in the military which unfortunately also comes with a price tag.
     
    #34
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    I could see them raising the price for the military, cause money for our military is basically endless. Now by no means am I saying that NF can't justify the FFP costing $500 more, because I don't build these scopes, nor do I know exactly what they have to do to get that reticle in the front plane, besides drawings of the internals that I've seen. But for the fact the one company can do the same thing for a fraction of the price has to say something.

    But like cooper said, there are diehard NF fans that would pay anything to have that 'NF' on top of there gun. So hats off to you Nightforce, you've brain washed a few, but the rest of us are wising up to your tricks, haha.
     
    #37
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M14_Fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot to ask you... How's the eye relief on the m1a with this scope?

    Cheers,</div></div>

    The eye relief is not bad at all from what I can tell right now. Again, I need to get behind the rifle at the range before I can contribute more objective information; how comfy the rifle is to shoot with a clean picture. But it does seem to be rather forgiving thru the magnification range. The main problem with the M1a is the cheek weld. You have to get the stock on the lower part of your face to reach the line of sight. So it is not as comfortable as my bolt guns, which have a much tighter cheek weld. Hopefully it won't bother my neck too much to shoot.
     
    #39
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im guessing they are paying for R&D time, it takes a lot more optical engineering in order to make a FFP scope work and work well.</div></div>

    Thats total bull.

    the truth is that 2nd focal is much harder to make work since you got to keep the reticle on zero all the way through the mag range. a FFP is not affected by this which means its actually easier to make. European scope makers actually say FFP is easier to make, its on the S&B website even.

    i think the key here is that its harder to make SFP work as it should!
     
    #41
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McKinneyMike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that it boils down to economics for manufacturers. They sell far more SFP scopes than they do FFP scopes. If and when the ratio is closer, I would imagine that pricing will be reflected. </div></div>

    That's like the government saying they'll remove the toll on a bridge when it's payed for.
    wink.gif


    John
     
    #42
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    When will people stop trying to compare these scopes to NF, they don't compare.

    Why does a NF F1 cost $500 more than a SFP model? Well for starters it includes a set of rings that cost almost $200 by themselves, comparing it side by side to the SFP it appears to have better glass, more than 80% of the parts are made here in the US for it to be eligible to put "Made in USA" on it which labor here costs more than Japan, and they have to pay for the R&D on a brand new scope. All things considered a little over $300 upgrade taking the rings out of the picture the to the F1 is a VERY good price to get FFP, and USA quality.

    Now let's compare apples to apples. A new F1 is $2290 MAP, a new 3.5-15X50 SFP Hi-speed ZS MRAD is $1792 and a set of ultralight 1.0 rings goes for $163. so the exact difference after subtracting the rings is $335 which is a 18.7% increase in price. A Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 SFP is $699.95 MAP, and the same FFP model is $849.95. The Vortex is over a 21% increase in price to the FFP.

    The Vortex's are both made in the phillipines at bargain bin prices, both are new R&D, and there are NO other differences besides FFP vs. SFP. Now tell me who is charging more for their features.
     
    #43
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When will people stop trying to compare these scopes to NF, they don't compare.

    Why does a NF F1 cost $500 more than a SFP model? Well for starters it includes a set of rings that cost almost $200 by themselves, comparing it side by side to the SFP it appears to have better glass, more than 80% of the parts are made here in the US for it to be eligible to put "Made in USA" on it which labor here costs more than Japan, and they have to pay for the R&D on a brand new scope. All things considered a little over $300 upgrade taking the rings out of the picture the to the F1 is a VERY good price to get FFP, and USA quality.

    Now let's compare apples to apples. A new F1 is $2290 MAP, a new 3.5-15X50 SFP Hi-speed ZS MRAD is $1792 and a set of ultralight 1.0 rings goes for $163. so the exact difference after subtracting the rings is $335 which is a 18.7% increase in price. A Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 SFP is $699.95 MAP, and the same FFP model is $849.95. The Vortex is over a 21% increase in price to the FFP.

    The Vortex's are both made in the phillipines at bargain bin prices, both are new R&D, and there are NO other differences besides FFP vs. SFP. Now tell me who is charging more for their features. </div></div>

    redneckbmxer24,

    Unless I missed something noone was comparing the two, other than examples of companies that made an SFP and FFP scope and their relative pricing. I at least am not deluded enough to believe that a sub-$1000 scope can compete head-to-head with a $2000+ scope.

    The information you gave was informative, and it would appear I opened my big mouth about a subject without having all the facts. I was unaware that the F1 price included rings. Or that there was a difference in the way/place the two (sfp/ffp)were manufactured.

    We ARE treading on thin ice here as this is OP's thread and we are way off topic. My fault as much as anyone's. Interesting and informative, but a derail nonetheless.

    Sorry, OP.

    John
     
    #44
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    So you've had it for ~3 days now where the hell is the range report?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">stuff</div></div>

    Yeah, I wondered about the cost between the FFP vs. SFP PST's too. I think it has to do with the demand for the item more than anything else. I have a hard time believing that it's 15-20% more difficult to place the reticle on a different lens. As far as euro scopes go for a long time they were all FFP. I had an old kahles from the 40's that was FFP with a 3 post reticle.

    It could also be that when your whole production line is geared towards SFP scope manufacture making a few FFP could take a little extra time, therefore more $$$$.

    As an aside, I think some of the NF SFP stuff is made in USA as well. Not sure why the glass would be "better" in the FFP though, could just be your eyeballs/expectations.
     
    #45
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    redneckbmxer24,

    Unless I missed something noone was comparing the two, other than examples of companies that made an SFP and FFP scope and their relative pricing. I at least am not deluded enough to believe that a sub-$1000 scope can compete head-to-head with a $2000+ scope.

    The information you gave was informative, and it would appear I opened my big mouth about a subject without having all the facts. I was unaware that the F1 price included rings. Or that there was a difference in the way/place the two (sfp/ffp)were manufactured.

    We ARE treading on thin ice here as this is OP's thread and we are way off topic. My fault as much as anyone's. Interesting and informative, but a derail nonetheless.

    Sorry, OP.

    John </div></div>

    John, nobody compared the scopes directly but their prices and increases are still being compared like they are comparable scopes. Not to mention not one person bashing NF for a price increase to FFP even bothered to do even the slightest research on the product. It's no secret the F1's are USA made and come with free rings, a simple visit to the products page on their site states both. http://nightforceoptics.com/nightforcescopes/SCOPES_OVERVIEW/3_5-15x50_F1/3_5-15x50_f1.html

    Vortex has the most extreme fanboyism I've ever witnessed with this scope which is probably due to the long anticipation, and constant postponed delivery dates. The scope is what it is, and if somebody isn't comparing the scopes directly the NF's they're comparing the companies. It just needs to stop, if somebody wants something to compare it to, try the 4200. And by compare I mean the scopes side by side with actual use, not the spec sheets.
     
    #46
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you've had it for ~3 days now where the hell is the range report?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">stuff</div></div>

    Yeah, I wondered about the cost between the FFP vs. SFP PST's too. I think it has to do with the demand for the item more than anything else. I have a hard time believing that it's 15-20% more difficult to place the reticle on a different lens. As far as euro scopes go for a long time they were all FFP. I had an old kahles from the 40's that was FFP with a 3 post reticle.

    It could also be that when your whole production line is geared towards SFP scope manufacture making a few FFP could take a little extra time, therefore more $$$$.

    As an aside, I think some of the NF SFP stuff is made in USA as well. Not sure why the glass would be "better" in the FFP though, could just be your eyeballs/expectations. </div></div>

    The price increase to the F1 is right in my post, it has nothing to do with demand, if it did the price would be much higher. NF probably sells 2X or more SFP 3.5-15's per year than F1's, which is the demand for?

    There is a $335 price increase to the F1 that is easily justified with R&D costs designing a completely different scope, and the USA labor. Just like I said in my original post, it's manufactured in a different country that has more expensive labor, and is new R&D but yet is still less of a price increase than what Vortex charges for theirs, both made in the same phillipine's factory.

    The compact NF SFP's are also made in USA but the SFP 3.5-15's and 5.5-22's are made in Japan. As far as glass quality, I feel I'm qualified to speak to that. I've had well over 10 SFP NF's mostly 3.5-15X50's, shot with probably 20-30 others that belonged to other people, owned 1 F1, and used a few others. In every case the F1 had noticably better glass and it isn't just my eyes.
     
    #47
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott300RUM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could see them raising the price for the military, cause money for our military is basically endless. </div></div>


    Okay I can't let this slide... That shit pisses me off. If funding for our military were basically endless, we'd all have squad internal radios, our gear would be better made, our vehicles wouldn't be damned near falling apart, and we wouldn't have lots upon lots of vehicles of every kind waiting funding to be reset into a serviceable condition while some units are making due with less than the number of vehicles required.

    And in terms of weapons... we wouldn't be running leupold scopes for most of the sniper rifles the military as a whole uses, we wouldn't have went the route of rebuilding factory Rem 700 actions that have sometimes literally 10's of thousands of rounds through them instead of buying new rifles.

    The list goes on and on. But don't even think about saying there is an endless funding supply. Any soldier or marine who's equipment has left him wanting would love to ring your neck for such a statement.
     
    #48
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    So what about the overall scoop on these things. Are they worth the money? We have waited and waited for them to be perfected and I would like to have one but I am a little cautious. I like the milling feature of the upper part of the reticle that allows you precisely mil down to .2mils. This would help someone like me that has less experience doing this. It seems it is going to be hard to get good clean glass, a good reticle and repeatable performance in a scope for this kind of money I am afraid. There must be one these that is lacking a little. I am used to my nightforce scopes but I want to go mil. I dont like the nightforce mil reticle because it isn't fine enough for me to range with. I bought a horus the other day but I am not forsure if I can stay on task long enough to get back to the same hold as busy as the reticle is. The razor with the christmas tree reticle is awsome but I cant drop that coin right now. Thoughts?
     
    #49
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



    Vortex has the most extreme fanboyism I've ever witnessed with this scope which is probably due to the long anticipation, and constant postponed delivery dates. The scope is what it is, and if somebody isn't comparing the scopes directly the NF's they're comparing the companies. It just needs to stop, <span style="font-weight: bold">if somebody wants something to compare it to, try the 4200. </span>And by compare I mean the scopes side by side with actual use, not the spec sheets. </div></div>

    That's what I am waiting for. For the money, the 4200 seems like a better deal right now. I'd be curious to see if these Vortex scopes can match the 4200 clarity, repeatability, and ruggedness.
     
    #50
    Re: Got my Viper PST 4-16x50 today!!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BaileyMoto</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



    Vortex has the most extreme fanboyism I've ever witnessed with this scope which is probably due to the long anticipation, and constant postponed delivery dates. The scope is what it is, and if somebody isn't comparing the scopes directly the NF's they're comparing the companies. It just needs to stop, <span style="font-weight: bold">if somebody wants something to compare it to, try the 4200. </span>And by compare I mean the scopes side by side with actual use, not the spec sheets. </div></div>

    That's what I am waiting for. For the money, the 4200 seems like a better deal right now. I'd be curious to see if these Vortex scopes can match the 4200 clarity, repeatability, and ruggedness. </div></div>

    I've had or used both, but I don't want to turn this into a 4200 vs. PST thread as its already off topic enough. You can PM me if you would like.
     
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