• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

Papagallos

Papagallos

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 5, 2009
2,576
130
47
South Texas, United States
I'm very aware that generally every gun builder out there guarantees a specific accuracy. But the question is do they test fire each weapon to confirm the accuracy before they ship it out? Or is up to you/us to achieve the guaranteed accuracy? Any thoughts on this? And if they do test fire the rifle, does that mean they break-in the rifle too? How about a list of builders that do or don't test fire rifles to confirm their accuracy guarantee prior to shipping them?
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

I'm pretty sure most do not test accuracy because of the cost of time. If they do and are reputable they go through the break in process. Just remember you will be paying them for their time. Most have a set standard of accuracy based on components and work requested. If the rifle is not achieving that accuracy most will get it there free of charge. I had this question a month ago and ask my friend who builds rifles. That is what he told me.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dudeman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm pretty sure most do not test accuracy because of the cost of time. If they do and are reputable they go through the break in process. Just remember you will be paying them for their time. Most have a set standard of accuracy based on components and work requested. If the rifle is not achieving that accuracy most will get it there free of charge. I had this question a month ago and ask my friend who builds rifles. That is what he told me. </div></div>
Are you kidding me? Tac Ops shoots and sends you a test target, APA does as well, Im sure others do too....
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

To make a guarantee statement like that, I am sure they have to test it. Now, for someone who literally builds thousands and thousands of them, where it becomes an exact science, then they may not test each rifle. But who knows, I am not a gun builder.

I met a guy at a local gun range and he was testing his rifles 223 cal. before he sends out to his customers along with a target. Of course, he was using manufactured ammo (match grade of course). When asked, he said that he testd each one of them for his cutomers, because he guaranteed each one to shoot sub MOA (to whatever level that he told me but I forgot).

So, I am sure that most reputable builders will do so. Now, you can have a subMOA rifle, but the driver behind it is not using good fundamentals of marksmanship, then it doesn't matter if the rifle can shoot sub, sub, sub MOA.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

That's the big issue with accuracy guarantees, shooters who can't drive the rifle good enough then bitch that it's the rifles fault. Remington ships a test target with the 40-X rifles that they supply an accuracy guarantee with.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage110</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dudeman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm pretty sure most do not test accuracy because of the cost of time. If they do and are reputable they go through the break in process. Just remember you will be paying them for their time. Most have a set standard of accuracy based on components and work requested. If the rifle is not achieving that accuracy most will get it there free of charge. I had this question a month ago and ask my friend who builds rifles. That is what he told me. </div></div>
Are you kidding me? Tac Ops shoots and sends you a test target, APA does as well, Im sure others do too.... </div></div>

Last I checked...APA charges a ridiculous amount of money for this. I wouldnt pay it because it should be free. It's the builders responsibility to make sure it shoots... not my wallet's.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

Custom/trued action + Custom barrel + Reputable smith = it'll shoot better than we can.

I don't need a ridiculous little tiny three shot group of nonsense @ 100yds to prove it. Nor should anyone else.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Custom/trued action + Custom barrel + Reputable smith = it'll shoot better than we can.

I don't need a ridiculous little tiny three shot group of nonsense @ 100yds to prove it. Nor should anyone else. </div></div>

3 shot groups prove little anyhow.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

gun builders build so many rifles every year, it would be a big waste of time to put a group on paper. I know that benchmark carries a 1/2 MOA standard. They do not test the rifles before they send them out. They are confident in their ability to build 1/2 MOA or better rifles. I dont think they have had one rifle come back yet. Maybe if a rifle builder does want to test fire a rifle and put a 3 shot group on paper it make me wonder how many rifles they cant get that guarantee and then they start over. Just a thought. I have no knowledge of this just saying maybe they have something to be worried about and are not as confident as some other builders.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

Man, I need to raise my prices. We do break in, accuracy test, provide load data, test target, and a dummy round with every rifle that leaves the shop. We also check for functioning...feeding rounds from mag, extracting, ejecting, etc... It takes a little extra time, but it gives me an excuse to shoot more. This is all included in the price of the rifle.

Oh, and its not a confidence in my work issue as suggested above. Every rifle I have built shoots well under the 1/2moa mark. Just seems like if somebody is paying you to build a $3500+ rifle, it should at least be test fired and function tested.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

My most recient GAP rifle came with a test target with 8 groups on it. Each group had the load and the shooter written next to it.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

No apology needed...just explaining our procedure is all. I know there are builders out there that don't function test or test fire rifles before shipping, I just feel its the correct thing to do is all.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage110</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are you kidding me? Tac Ops shoots and sends you a test target,<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> APA does as well</span></span>, Im sure others do too.... </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My most recient <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt">GAP rifle came with a test target</span></span> with 8 groups on it. Each group had the load and the shooter written next to it. </div></div>

One APA and two GAP rifles in the last three years, no test targets received with any of them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Custom/trued action + Custom barrel + Reputable smith = it'll shoot better than we can.</div></div>

All three shoot these tiny little bug-hole groups that defy improvement. I'm glad these Magicians did their mystical work, and wouldn't question who is responsible for an errant group or stray shot!
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

If I remember correctly the APA test target/break in is extra. I do believe they test fire the rifles though.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

I don't doubt, for one minute, that all the reputable 'smiths test for fit, function, and/or accuracy. My point is simply that we all pay them to do what they do, and I have been completely satisfied with all my experiences with them.
The value of trust and confidence cannot be discounted...
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TangoDown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Custom/trued action + Custom barrel + Reputable smith = it'll shoot better than we can.

I don't need a ridiculous little tiny three shot group of nonsense @ 100yds to prove it. Nor should anyone else. </div></div>

3 shot groups prove little anyhow. </div></div>

That is your opinion and I am sure some others will agree. Kinda like the cut rifling vs button rifling debates or barrel break-in opinions.

We typically shoot 3-round groups during our range certification process. However, we're not looking for that one magic group in several; we're looking for consistency across several groups. That is really the key.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TangoDown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Custom/trued action + Custom barrel + Reputable smith = it'll shoot better than we can.

I don't need a ridiculous little tiny three shot group of nonsense @ 100yds to prove it. Nor should anyone else. </div></div>

3 shot groups prove little anyhow.</div></div>

A 3-shot group and 1/2 MOA will not PROVE a gun's accuracy, but a 1 MOA 3-shot group would certainly DISPROVE it.

And it is tough to argue that a 3-shot group is just as good of a QC check as not firing the rifle at all.

It is up to each builder, but I think it is good policy to QC your own work by having the rifle perform the task it is supposed to perform before it walks out the door. Most computer companies not only turn the computers on, but run a battery of tests on each computer before they ship them. Costly, yes, but it seems like a good idea.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

My DTA came with a 4 shot group. They are supposed to have a three shot group but one was marked and called a "flyer." The barrel was built by APA and they did not charge additional for the testing.

To the OP, a lot of builders will give you test group targets, but it is up to you to, "break in" the rifle. That is mostly BS if you ask me, the whole "break in" think and I'm sure that there are many that would agree. I've seen some Tac Ops targets that would be very hard for the rifle's owner to duplicate if needed, but impressive none the less.

I'm curious why you ask this question. If you are worried about "break in" do a little research here on the hide and I'm sure you will come to the conclusion that you can stop worrying and go shoot the shit out of it. I know guys that spend more time cleaning their rifles then they do actually shooting them.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

You have to be careful of some gun builders who guarantee a certain level of accuracy . I have owned GAP , AKA-SPOOK , and Predator Custom rifles . GAP and SPOOK made rifles that shot under .5 moa . Predator Custom ( TN ) guaranteed .5 moa . They also break in the barrel and send you the test target . As I have posted before , there was no test target sent with the rifle . Using match ammo and some handloads I was getting around .55 moa . When I contacted the owner he sent me a copy of the test target - it was a little under .6 moa . He then explained he didn't have an accuracy load for a 260 Rem ; what a load of crap ! We aren't talking 499 Whizbang Improved but a 260 Rem . Long story short they screwed up the bedding job . I rebedded it and it groups around .4 with me pulling the trigger . So just because someone guarantees something doesn't mean it really is .

david
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

Don't know if DTA sends a test target out or not, but I see their guy out at the range every week or so with a metric-buttload of the rifles for test-firing. Some of his background is as a benchrester and he usually lays those rounds right on top of each other with the DTAs.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrrifle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't know if DTA sends a test target out or not, but I see their guy out at the range every week or so with a metric-buttload of the rifles for test-firing. Some of his background is as a benchrester and he usually lays those rounds right on top of each other with the DTAs. </div></div>

They sent test targets when I bought mine a year ago.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

APA will test fire your rifle for a fee, I opted not to pay for it. But Jered did say if you have ANY problems with the way it shoots we will fix it!

On edit ... I the only problem I have had is my rifle shoots better than I can consistently.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmAM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man, I need to raise my prices. We do break in, accuracy test, provide load data, test target, and a dummy round with every rifle that leaves the shop. We also check for functioning...feeding rounds from mag, extracting, ejecting, etc... It takes a little extra time, but it gives me an excuse to shoot more. This is all included in the price of the rifle.

Oh, and its not a confidence in my work issue as suggested above. Every rifle I have built shoots well under the 1/2moa mark. Just seems like if somebody is paying you to build a $3500+ rifle, it should at least be test fired and function tested.</div></div>

also one of the reasons you are one of the most underrated smiths i know of. your rifles are works of art and they shoot lights out!!! I will for sure be contacting you for my next full build whenever that might be.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: patches</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curious why you ask this question. If you are worried about "break in" do a little research here on the hide and I'm sure you will come to the conclusion that you can stop worrying and go shoot the shit out of it. I know guys that spend more time cleaning their rifles then they do actually shooting them. </div></div>

Frankly, I don't give a damn about a builder breaking-in the rifle or not for me. But what concerns me is what builders preach. And what most highly recommend, directly or indirectly, is for you to find the most appropriate break-in procedure for your rifle in order to achieve optimum barrel performance. If this is the case, that they encourage a break-in procedure, then I question whether they themselves break-in the rifle before conducting an accuracy test. That is all, nothing more.

And, yes, I will shoot the shit out of my rifle once I receive it. Guaranteed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
grin.gif
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

I don't know many smiths who recommend a break-in period these days. I know some barrel companies do... but they have a vested interest. A smith might have a vested interest as well... first, as an excuse as to why your gun doesn't shoot like you think it should, and then to say, "If you're gun shoots so poorly, why did you send 100 rounds downrange?"

I am pretty skeptical of break-in for custom sticks.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler44</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmAM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man, I need to raise my prices. We do break in, accuracy test, provide load data, test target, and a dummy round with every rifle that leaves the shop. We also check for functioning...feeding rounds from mag, extracting, ejecting, etc... It takes a little extra time, but it gives me an excuse to shoot more. This is all included in the price of the rifle.

Oh, and its not a confidence in my work issue as suggested above. Every rifle I have built shoots well under the 1/2moa mark. Just seems like if somebody is paying you to build a $3500+ rifle, it should at least be test fired and function tested.</div></div>

also <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">one of the reasons you are one of the most underrated smiths i know of. your rifles are works of art and they shoot lights out!!! </span></span>I will for sure be contacting you for my next full build whenever that might be. </div></div>

Yeah, ain't that the truth!
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmAM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No apology needed...just explaining our procedure is all. I know there are builders out there that don't function test or test fire rifles before shipping, I just feel its the correct thing to do is all. </div></div>

Travis,
Not asking to reveal any secrets but what does a test firing entail for you? Are you mounting a base/proven scope and shooting a few groups with previous recipes that worked well or do you start from scratch with each rifle? Do you feel a finished rifle should shoot well with a variety of loads and bullet weights or do you go with an approach of one recipe per rifle? Thanks for your time.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

No problem, here is the brief explantion.

I mount one of our test scopes (mark 4 or NF) or the customers scope if they provided one. If its the customers scope, then I do a quick box test on a proven personal rifle.

Loads:

I have several "standard" loads that we use per caliber. They vary in bullets and powders. If a customer says they want to use a specific bullet, then I do the testing with that bullet, but will also test the other loads as well. I had a guy that just wanted to shoot Hornady TAP ammo in his 308. I purchased a couple boxes of it for testing and also tested the rifle with the standard 175SMK load as well. What I have found is, because the rifles are all chambered with the same reamer, my standard loads are pretty consistent barrel to barrel. Sometimes a little tweaking may be needed, but its rare.

Range testing:

All testing is done under field conditions. I shoot prone off a bipod and feed from the magazine. This allows me to check the function of the rifle and how it is going to behave under field conditions. I shoot 4 test targets at 100yds to start with. 5 shot groups for the smaller calibers, 3 shot groups for the big boomers. This gives me some idea of consistency. Then I move out to 500yds and 950yds. Again, a few shots to check consistency. Generally I have 30-35 rounds down the tube when I am finished, sometimes slightly less.

Once this is all complete, I clean the rifle, enclose test target, load data, and a dummy round. The remaining targets go in the customers file with the build data.

I know there are alot of reputable smiths that don't test and their rifles are very accurate. I just prefer to test them before shipping them out. This is just our process is all. I am just a "small fish" smith in the big pond. I just figure if a guy has waited 4-6 months for the rifle, he is wanting to shoot the damn thing. Not mess around with load workup, etc... I know that part of the fun, I just speed the process up a little is all. Most guys actually just stick with the standard load I provide and call it good.

Hopefully this answered some of the questions. There is more detail in it than this, but it at least gives a little idea of our process.
 
Re: Gun Builder's Accuracy Guarantee?

Thanks Travis, was getting all worked up on the 7mm you built for SU-35 and was plotting something similiar.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

W
Fierce Positive Review
Replies
0
Views
155
Woolsocks
W
M
Custom AR Builders – Precision VS Combat
Replies
11
Views
409
MontanaMan
M
Frank Green
bad lot of steel and rumors
Replies
170
Views
8K
FCrifles
FCrifles
BravoSector1
SOLD New in box Proof Research Elevation MTR, .223 Rem, 16.5in, new mags, QD bipod rail - $2,700 shipped
Replies
8
Views
1K
BravoSector1
BravoSector1
AI Shooter
SOLD Accuracy International AI AT-X Rifle, Dark Earth, 6.5 CM, Folding Stock with extras
Replies
6
Views
700
AI Shooter
AI Shooter
Top Bottom
Back