I was reading this month's Handgunner and there was an article about getting scholarships to gunsmithing students because they seem to vanishing due to the cost of education and tooling, combine with the amount of work a smith has to do just to make ends meet. Now I take anything I read with a grain of salt but I thought it was an interesting article because of all of the lurking I do around here, it seems that you guys are busy as hell. Heck, how long is the current wait time for a GAP these days? I had to wait quite a bit to get my barrel threaded and my smith said he can't handle anymore work. So is it really as bleak as painted in that article or is it just that there are just a few GOOD smiths and they're backed up or a problem with people needing work done connecting with the people who do the work?
Gunsmithing Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
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Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Think of a good gunsmith like a good barber. The really good ones have a very loyal clientele, and word of mouth is some of the best advertising. For reference, I've only had my hair cut by 2 people in my life and the main one has given me all but about 4 or 5 cuts. Good gunsmiths have lifelong customers most of the time.
Kelly
Think of a good gunsmith like a good barber. The really good ones have a very loyal clientele, and word of mouth is some of the best advertising. For reference, I've only had my hair cut by 2 people in my life and the main one has given me all but about 4 or 5 cuts. Good gunsmiths have lifelong customers most of the time.
Kelly
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Too true. A good gunsmith is a true artisan and they arent a dime a dozen. The good ones make a good living I think but are always busy. Just call and get lead times from any of the sponsors here. I dont think they are going to fade away though. We will always need good stick builders and handgun builders. I think that with CNC technology getting cheaper though some of the art in the profession will be lost if the next generation doesnt take the time to learn it from the old timers which will be very sad.
Too true. A good gunsmith is a true artisan and they arent a dime a dozen. The good ones make a good living I think but are always busy. Just call and get lead times from any of the sponsors here. I dont think they are going to fade away though. We will always need good stick builders and handgun builders. I think that with CNC technology getting cheaper though some of the art in the profession will be lost if the next generation doesnt take the time to learn it from the old timers which will be very sad.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
I think most shooters think their gunsmiths make more money then they actually do. There is a very large over head and no matter how much stuff you bought for the shop last month (you think you will spend less next month) you always seem to spend more next month on tooling, reamer, parts, etc....
I would be out of business if I took in the majority of local business (fixing grandpa's .22 lr that wont cycle or reblueing the old shot gun that is rusted up in the basement).
I'm sure other smiths would agree with me, but charging $250 to properly fit a barrel to the action and hold tolerances of .0001 on the chamber/bore concentricity is not a big profit. It can easily take all day to true an action/bolt and then barrel it up properly.
Mark
I think most shooters think their gunsmiths make more money then they actually do. There is a very large over head and no matter how much stuff you bought for the shop last month (you think you will spend less next month) you always seem to spend more next month on tooling, reamer, parts, etc....
I would be out of business if I took in the majority of local business (fixing grandpa's .22 lr that wont cycle or reblueing the old shot gun that is rusted up in the basement).
I'm sure other smiths would agree with me, but charging $250 to properly fit a barrel to the action and hold tolerances of .0001 on the chamber/bore concentricity is not a big profit. It can easily take all day to true an action/bolt and then barrel it up properly.
Mark
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
I too have found recently that it is a dying bread,but not as a smith. I am a department armorer and instructor. I have always dreamed of going off to CO to go to school, but as a full time LEO, husband, and father of 2 little ones, it aint in the cards. It really became appearent when I approached several of the local gunsmith/gun plumbers and asked if they would allow me to spend a little shop time w them to learn some of the basics of machining and set up. Most that call themselves by the trade name can do no more than find factory fitted parts in a brownell's catolog and put them in. The true art of gunsmithing seems to be leaving my generation. Who wants to learn how guns work and fit together when they can watch a youtube video about doing a trigger job on a glock. Most guys think the most important tool in the box is a dremel tool, but dont have a clue how to properly use a screw driver or brass hammer. Sure, they can get a decent 4lb trigger out of the gun, but they cant tell you what the parts do, or how changing angles/fitting can effect the gun.
Unfortunately, the guns themselves are partly to blame. all of the new guns made are done using castings, push pins, and injection molding. Even the classic model 10 S&W has no true hand fitted parts. It is amazing, I was looking at a magazine and saw an article featuring a pic of a guy in india building a rifle with nothing more that a file, his hands, and his feet. I have tons of books on how to build rifles, pistols, ect, but that does not make me know what I am doing. Hell, I even have the equipment, but I am not at that level yet. We no longer have lots of "machinists" that love the guns for what they are. Now, they write computer programs, or live in other countries.
I too have found recently that it is a dying bread,but not as a smith. I am a department armorer and instructor. I have always dreamed of going off to CO to go to school, but as a full time LEO, husband, and father of 2 little ones, it aint in the cards. It really became appearent when I approached several of the local gunsmith/gun plumbers and asked if they would allow me to spend a little shop time w them to learn some of the basics of machining and set up. Most that call themselves by the trade name can do no more than find factory fitted parts in a brownell's catolog and put them in. The true art of gunsmithing seems to be leaving my generation. Who wants to learn how guns work and fit together when they can watch a youtube video about doing a trigger job on a glock. Most guys think the most important tool in the box is a dremel tool, but dont have a clue how to properly use a screw driver or brass hammer. Sure, they can get a decent 4lb trigger out of the gun, but they cant tell you what the parts do, or how changing angles/fitting can effect the gun.
Unfortunately, the guns themselves are partly to blame. all of the new guns made are done using castings, push pins, and injection molding. Even the classic model 10 S&W has no true hand fitted parts. It is amazing, I was looking at a magazine and saw an article featuring a pic of a guy in india building a rifle with nothing more that a file, his hands, and his feet. I have tons of books on how to build rifles, pistols, ect, but that does not make me know what I am doing. Hell, I even have the equipment, but I am not at that level yet. We no longer have lots of "machinists" that love the guns for what they are. Now, they write computer programs, or live in other countries.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Mark is right on the ball with what he said. The time when the most work gets done in my shop is after closing time, when there's no one coming in to shoot the shit(which I don't mind but not for 2 hrs at a time). Maybe I'm stupid or poor in business but I rarely charge a minimum for small jobs. Someone brings gun in that needs a minor tweek in 2 minutes I don't feel right about charging them $45 or whatever. I had a customer 2 weeks ago that told me he went to the new big gunshop locally to check on a 1911 trigger fitting and he was quoted $95... After I got back off the floor I told him that was a $25 at most.
Mark is right on the ball with what he said. The time when the most work gets done in my shop is after closing time, when there's no one coming in to shoot the shit(which I don't mind but not for 2 hrs at a time). Maybe I'm stupid or poor in business but I rarely charge a minimum for small jobs. Someone brings gun in that needs a minor tweek in 2 minutes I don't feel right about charging them $45 or whatever. I had a customer 2 weeks ago that told me he went to the new big gunshop locally to check on a 1911 trigger fitting and he was quoted $95... After I got back off the floor I told him that was a $25 at most.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
I think that there would be a lot more people interested in gunsmithing if the training was more readily available. The schools are so few and far between that they make it impractical for most to go to them. I'd be interested in going to gunsmithing school, but I'm not quitting my job and moving across the country to do it though.....I imagine there are a lot of guys that fall into that category. That said, I wonder how necessary gunsmithing school really is? If I had the machines to do it with, I'd not hesitate building my own rifle. Someone with a mechanical mind, some machinist training and a self learner should be able to get by just fine without gunsmithing school I would think.
I think that there would be a lot more people interested in gunsmithing if the training was more readily available. The schools are so few and far between that they make it impractical for most to go to them. I'd be interested in going to gunsmithing school, but I'm not quitting my job and moving across the country to do it though.....I imagine there are a lot of guys that fall into that category. That said, I wonder how necessary gunsmithing school really is? If I had the machines to do it with, I'd not hesitate building my own rifle. Someone with a mechanical mind, some machinist training and a self learner should be able to get by just fine without gunsmithing school I would think.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
That is like saying that rock musicians are a dying breed.
In both cases there is a huge amateur pressure on the market.
How many guys do you know with a guitar that never earned a nickel with it? How many guys do you know that worked the road playing in bars for $100/week when the roadies got $200?
How many guys do you know with a mill and lathe they bought for gunsmithing, but never earned any money gunsmithing? How many gunsmiths out there will work for $20/ hour shop time?
There is a 23 year old kid that can play my guitar and run my mill, but he makes $70/hour + benefits doing engineering.
What does it all mean?
Anyone who makes a living doing gunsmithing could have made more money doing something else.
They are doing it, in part, because they like it.
What does THAT mean?
We have too many guys who want to be gunsmiths and rock musicians, thus pushing down on the entry level income for those professions.
That is like saying that rock musicians are a dying breed.
In both cases there is a huge amateur pressure on the market.
How many guys do you know with a guitar that never earned a nickel with it? How many guys do you know that worked the road playing in bars for $100/week when the roadies got $200?
How many guys do you know with a mill and lathe they bought for gunsmithing, but never earned any money gunsmithing? How many gunsmiths out there will work for $20/ hour shop time?
There is a 23 year old kid that can play my guitar and run my mill, but he makes $70/hour + benefits doing engineering.
What does it all mean?
Anyone who makes a living doing gunsmithing could have made more money doing something else.
They are doing it, in part, because they like it.
What does THAT mean?
We have too many guys who want to be gunsmiths and rock musicians, thus pushing down on the entry level income for those professions.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
i for one have yet to figure out how gunsmiths get out on their own with the big equipment expenditures--i can see going to school and working for an established firm but without winning the lottery or receiving a large inheritance i do not see how all
the CNC machines and such could ever be acquired--my banks have
only politely turned doen the idea of loans for any such purchases--if i were togive up all else I could attend a top school and have the confidence to achieve but cannot possibly
dream of ever being on my own
i for one have yet to figure out how gunsmiths get out on their own with the big equipment expenditures--i can see going to school and working for an established firm but without winning the lottery or receiving a large inheritance i do not see how all
the CNC machines and such could ever be acquired--my banks have
only politely turned doen the idea of loans for any such purchases--if i were togive up all else I could attend a top school and have the confidence to achieve but cannot possibly
dream of ever being on my own
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BERTMAN77MK2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i for one have yet to figure out how gunsmiths get out on their own with the big equipment expenditures--i can see going to school and working for an established firm but without winning the lottery or receiving a large inheritance i do not see how all
the CNC machines and such could ever be acquired--my banks have
only politely turned doen the idea of loans for any such purchases--if i were togive up all else I could attend a top school and have the confidence to achieve but cannot possibly
dream of ever being on my own
</div></div>
Its the same as college. People pay big bucks to go to college and end up paying back those loans for 20 years. The old addage of you have to spend money to make money still applies.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BERTMAN77MK2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i for one have yet to figure out how gunsmiths get out on their own with the big equipment expenditures--i can see going to school and working for an established firm but without winning the lottery or receiving a large inheritance i do not see how all
the CNC machines and such could ever be acquired--my banks have
only politely turned doen the idea of loans for any such purchases--if i were togive up all else I could attend a top school and have the confidence to achieve but cannot possibly
dream of ever being on my own
</div></div>
Its the same as college. People pay big bucks to go to college and end up paying back those loans for 20 years. The old addage of you have to spend money to make money still applies.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
So true... Keep the day job... gunsmith part time until the client base is built up. Or come up with something new... Very tough to do in a 500 year old business
So true... Keep the day job... gunsmith part time until the client base is built up. Or come up with something new... Very tough to do in a 500 year old business
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
I guess if you're trying to break into the business you're stuck "fixing grandpa's .22 lr that wont cycle or reblueing the old shot gun that is rusted up in the basement" to make a little to live on and start building up the clientele. Initially is that the hardest part for an emerging smith? Connecting with clients?
I guess if you're trying to break into the business you're stuck "fixing grandpa's .22 lr that wont cycle or reblueing the old shot gun that is rusted up in the basement" to make a little to live on and start building up the clientele. Initially is that the hardest part for an emerging smith? Connecting with clients?
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is a 23 year old kid that can play my guitar and run my mill, but he makes $70/hour + benefits doing engineering.
</div></div>
He's doing damn well for a 23 y/o engineer.... double a good salary for a 23 y/o even with a MS degree.
The point is well made though. If I were to quit my engineering job and go do this stuff for a living I'd end up taking about a 65% pay cut. As much as I enjoy working on this stuff, enjoyment doesn't pay the bills.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is a 23 year old kid that can play my guitar and run my mill, but he makes $70/hour + benefits doing engineering.
</div></div>
He's doing damn well for a 23 y/o engineer.... double a good salary for a 23 y/o even with a MS degree.
The point is well made though. If I were to quit my engineering job and go do this stuff for a living I'd end up taking about a 65% pay cut. As much as I enjoy working on this stuff, enjoyment doesn't pay the bills.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.. my engineering job.. </div></div>
For a while I have wondered why your posts already said what I wanted to say.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.. my engineering job.. </div></div>
For a while I have wondered why your posts already said what I wanted to say.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
No argument with any of the observations above. What started out as a hobby has become a paid/part-time passion. Fortunately my military job allowed me the opportunity to attend several armorer courses. When I retire from active duty, I'll do this full time...but only because I love it, not to rely on it as a sole source of income. I could get away with charging $95 for a 1911 trigger job, but could not do so honestly.
Paul--
No argument with any of the observations above. What started out as a hobby has become a paid/part-time passion. Fortunately my military job allowed me the opportunity to attend several armorer courses. When I retire from active duty, I'll do this full time...but only because I love it, not to rely on it as a sole source of income. I could get away with charging $95 for a 1911 trigger job, but could not do so honestly.
Paul--
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Paul,
I am in the same boat, I should qual for over 30% dis and get Voc Rehab to pay for GS school... and some of the machinery... 30% is the magic # to qualify for vacational rehabilitation. The lesson here is start complaining about the stuff that hurts well before you get close to getting out... If you have been deployed a few times you will not have to pad you med records to qualify.
Paul,
I am in the same boat, I should qual for over 30% dis and get Voc Rehab to pay for GS school... and some of the machinery... 30% is the magic # to qualify for vacational rehabilitation. The lesson here is start complaining about the stuff that hurts well before you get close to getting out... If you have been deployed a few times you will not have to pad you med records to qualify.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Paul, that $95 that I was talking about was just to fit the trigger. I thought it was a complete joke
Paul, that $95 that I was talking about was just to fit the trigger. I thought it was a complete joke
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
I was looking for a smith for about a month before I found someone that I felt comfortable with my rifle build. It seemed to me while looking that most smiths don't advertise enough. Being available to clients is a top rule of business. my two cents
I was looking for a smith for about a month before I found someone that I felt comfortable with my rifle build. It seemed to me while looking that most smiths don't advertise enough. Being available to clients is a top rule of business. my two cents
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Hmm. I wrote a web app for a POC that sounds like it might be perfect for this problem. It's a website that connects users. So for example it could be used to connect smiths with customers and customers with smiths. It was designed for a different vertical but I could easily adapt it for this application if there was a real desire for it. BTW, it wouldn't cost anyone anything. I already wrote it and own the server. If you guys want it let me know and I'll get it online, otherwise I won't waste my time.
Hmm. I wrote a web app for a POC that sounds like it might be perfect for this problem. It's a website that connects users. So for example it could be used to connect smiths with customers and customers with smiths. It was designed for a different vertical but I could easily adapt it for this application if there was a real desire for it. BTW, it wouldn't cost anyone anything. I already wrote it and own the server. If you guys want it let me know and I'll get it online, otherwise I won't waste my time.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seemed to me while looking that most smiths don't advertise enough. Being available to clients is a top rule of business. my two cents </div></div>
Most smiths, including the hubby, are so busy that they don't need to advertise to get steady work. He's getting enough referrals just from word of mouth to keep him busy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seemed to me while looking that most smiths don't advertise enough. Being available to clients is a top rule of business. my two cents </div></div>
Most smiths, including the hubby, are so busy that they don't need to advertise to get steady work. He's getting enough referrals just from word of mouth to keep him busy.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
bcr229, I would assume this is the case for the well established smiths, hence the freakishly long wait times they have. But I guess I was thinking more about the new guys going off on their own or for anyone considering entering the trade. I thought that would be a huge barrier for them and that's who I was envisioning would benefit from some mechanism to connect with potential clients.
bcr229, I would assume this is the case for the well established smiths, hence the freakishly long wait times they have. But I guess I was thinking more about the new guys going off on their own or for anyone considering entering the trade. I thought that would be a huge barrier for them and that's who I was envisioning would benefit from some mechanism to connect with potential clients.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
The problem with gunsmithing is that there is no shortage of tooling and supplies to buy and no shortage of impatient asshats calling/emailing 24/7 to get daily updates on their pet project. Customers like that account for 2hrs out of each work day for me, that's time that I don't generate any profit on. Today's culture has gotten this mentality where everything should be instantly available and at "Walmart prices" and gunsmithing just can't be done on those terms, it takes TIME, lots of TIME, and more and more people won't pay for that time. That is also why gun fit and quality keeps going down too, factories mass produce guns and very little on the gun is hand-fitted anymore because they have to get that rifle/shotgun made dirt-cheap so that Walmart can put it on sale for $179.99. We stopped doing customer work because of this. With the economy slowing down we couldn't afford to keep paying for machinists and overhead for a shop and still spending 2hrs/day answering daily update calls from people that want to babysit their barrel the entire time you have it. I literally had people call to find out how long it would take to do something like thread a barrel, I'd tell them 2 weeks or 2 months or whatever, and they would start calling two days after they dropped it off to see what the status was. It got so bad that we started telling people that we'd charge them $25 every time they called before the due date just because we were spending so much time answering the phones.
Here's a classic conversation that I had with a customer:
----Monday morning----
CUSTOMER: "I'd like to get a KA-1212BR installed on my Rem870 barrel and have it refinished"
ME: "OK, no problem"
CUSTOMER: "How long is it going to take to get done?"
ME: "We are getting ready to set up the lathes to do a batch of barrels next Monday, so if you can get the barrel here by Friday it will be done in 2-3 weeks. If it gets here after that then its going to be waiting till the next batch"
CUSTOMER: "OK, no problem"
----Following Monday----
We start working on the barrels and the customer barrel still hasn't arrived. We get the lathes and machinery set up just to do shotgun barrel work and spend the day sizing breaching attachments, scribing centerlines, and turning barrels.
----Tuesday----
We set the machines back to normal for doing general machining work. Customer finally drops his barrel in the mail.
----Wednesday----
Barrel arrives, we open a work order, tag the barrel, and put it on an empty shelf waiting for the next batch of barrels to get worked on.
----Friday----
Customer: "Uh....yeah...this is *******, I was just going to be in town today and was wondering if my barrel was done yet so I could pick it up?"
Me: "Huh?.........You mean the barrel you shipped here two days ago?"
Customer: "Yeah, I was getting a breaching attachment installed on it....that one"
Me: "I told you that the barrel needed to be here by last Friday to get done on this batch and you SHIPPED it on the following Tuesday."
Customer: "So is it done yet? I just figured I'd save myself a trip if I could pick it up today while I was up there"
Me: "No, it didn't get here in time to go through on this batch so now its going to have to wait for the next batch of barrels"
Customer: "Uh....OK"
----Following Tuesday----
Customer: "Hi, this is ***** and I was just calling to see if my barrel was ready yet. The work order number is CAS08-****"
Me: "No, we're still waiting on more barrels to come in before we're going to do another batch of installs"
Customer: "Uh....OK"
----Friday----
Customer: "Hi, this is ***** and I was just calling to see if my barrel was ready yet. The work order number is CAS08-****"
Me: "NO! Its not going to be done for awhile because you got it here too late. We will call you when it is ready."
----Tuesday----
Customer: "Hi, this is ***** and I was just calling to see if my barrel was ready yet. The work order number is CAS08-****"
Me: "Seriously? You shipped this thing here a week too late for the current batch and they aren't even finished yet. We'll call YOU"
He called another few times in the two weeks after that and was just a PITA. Three weeks after the barrel arrived we get a letter from the BBB notifying us that he filed a complaint and read the bullshit story he had concocted about it. That is the trouble with customers nowadays and the internet, they can be complete assholes and when you don't kiss their ass they can go blast you on a forum somewhere and waste yet more of your time trying to clear your good name.
Anytime someone asks me how to get into the gunsmithing business I tell them to join a monastery, same pay, same lack of sex, but at least its a more noble cause
The problem with gunsmithing is that there is no shortage of tooling and supplies to buy and no shortage of impatient asshats calling/emailing 24/7 to get daily updates on their pet project. Customers like that account for 2hrs out of each work day for me, that's time that I don't generate any profit on. Today's culture has gotten this mentality where everything should be instantly available and at "Walmart prices" and gunsmithing just can't be done on those terms, it takes TIME, lots of TIME, and more and more people won't pay for that time. That is also why gun fit and quality keeps going down too, factories mass produce guns and very little on the gun is hand-fitted anymore because they have to get that rifle/shotgun made dirt-cheap so that Walmart can put it on sale for $179.99. We stopped doing customer work because of this. With the economy slowing down we couldn't afford to keep paying for machinists and overhead for a shop and still spending 2hrs/day answering daily update calls from people that want to babysit their barrel the entire time you have it. I literally had people call to find out how long it would take to do something like thread a barrel, I'd tell them 2 weeks or 2 months or whatever, and they would start calling two days after they dropped it off to see what the status was. It got so bad that we started telling people that we'd charge them $25 every time they called before the due date just because we were spending so much time answering the phones.
Here's a classic conversation that I had with a customer:
----Monday morning----
CUSTOMER: "I'd like to get a KA-1212BR installed on my Rem870 barrel and have it refinished"
ME: "OK, no problem"
CUSTOMER: "How long is it going to take to get done?"
ME: "We are getting ready to set up the lathes to do a batch of barrels next Monday, so if you can get the barrel here by Friday it will be done in 2-3 weeks. If it gets here after that then its going to be waiting till the next batch"
CUSTOMER: "OK, no problem"
----Following Monday----
We start working on the barrels and the customer barrel still hasn't arrived. We get the lathes and machinery set up just to do shotgun barrel work and spend the day sizing breaching attachments, scribing centerlines, and turning barrels.
----Tuesday----
We set the machines back to normal for doing general machining work. Customer finally drops his barrel in the mail.
----Wednesday----
Barrel arrives, we open a work order, tag the barrel, and put it on an empty shelf waiting for the next batch of barrels to get worked on.
----Friday----
Customer: "Uh....yeah...this is *******, I was just going to be in town today and was wondering if my barrel was done yet so I could pick it up?"
Me: "Huh?.........You mean the barrel you shipped here two days ago?"
Customer: "Yeah, I was getting a breaching attachment installed on it....that one"
Me: "I told you that the barrel needed to be here by last Friday to get done on this batch and you SHIPPED it on the following Tuesday."
Customer: "So is it done yet? I just figured I'd save myself a trip if I could pick it up today while I was up there"
Me: "No, it didn't get here in time to go through on this batch so now its going to have to wait for the next batch of barrels"
Customer: "Uh....OK"
----Following Tuesday----
Customer: "Hi, this is ***** and I was just calling to see if my barrel was ready yet. The work order number is CAS08-****"
Me: "No, we're still waiting on more barrels to come in before we're going to do another batch of installs"
Customer: "Uh....OK"
----Friday----
Customer: "Hi, this is ***** and I was just calling to see if my barrel was ready yet. The work order number is CAS08-****"
Me: "NO! Its not going to be done for awhile because you got it here too late. We will call you when it is ready."
----Tuesday----
Customer: "Hi, this is ***** and I was just calling to see if my barrel was ready yet. The work order number is CAS08-****"
Me: "Seriously? You shipped this thing here a week too late for the current batch and they aren't even finished yet. We'll call YOU"
He called another few times in the two weeks after that and was just a PITA. Three weeks after the barrel arrived we get a letter from the BBB notifying us that he filed a complaint and read the bullshit story he had concocted about it. That is the trouble with customers nowadays and the internet, they can be complete assholes and when you don't kiss their ass they can go blast you on a forum somewhere and waste yet more of your time trying to clear your good name.
Anytime someone asks me how to get into the gunsmithing business I tell them to join a monastery, same pay, same lack of sex, but at least its a more noble cause
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Ya that is ridiculous king and I understand. I admit I have to hold back on calling my smith. I'm not a nosy ass hole but just an anxious guy waiting too see what my 1000 dollar investment bought me lol. I don't call and complain like that, heck I dont even call except the one time I called and asked him to change my order to go ahead and order the badger M5 bottom metal (at his advice). Smiths aren't the only people over worked under paid and put up with BS, and any one that wants to stay in business usually has to put up with BS customers. Kinda like fishermen complaining about having to wash there hands all the time I suppose (meaning it comes with the job). JMHO
Ya that is ridiculous king and I understand. I admit I have to hold back on calling my smith. I'm not a nosy ass hole but just an anxious guy waiting too see what my 1000 dollar investment bought me lol. I don't call and complain like that, heck I dont even call except the one time I called and asked him to change my order to go ahead and order the badger M5 bottom metal (at his advice). Smiths aren't the only people over worked under paid and put up with BS, and any one that wants to stay in business usually has to put up with BS customers. Kinda like fishermen complaining about having to wash there hands all the time I suppose (meaning it comes with the job). JMHO
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
King you hit it on the head completely!
King you hit it on the head completely!
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Yeah, I hear ya. I don't mind customers calling if they have a specific question about the job or want to change something, but when you get 50 "is-it-done-yet?" calls everyday you end up spending a lot of time on the phone and not a lot of time getting things done. Its a vicious circle, because the more that you are working on, the more people you have calling you, which means you actually have less time in your work week to actually work on anything. Usually make more $$$ when things are just a little on the slow side. When things are busy I will rack up 3000+ minutes/month on the cell phone answering calls, that's 50 hrs/month spent on the phone, or basically one man-week per month flushed down the toilet as far as productivity goes.
Yeah, I hear ya. I don't mind customers calling if they have a specific question about the job or want to change something, but when you get 50 "is-it-done-yet?" calls everyday you end up spending a lot of time on the phone and not a lot of time getting things done. Its a vicious circle, because the more that you are working on, the more people you have calling you, which means you actually have less time in your work week to actually work on anything. Usually make more $$$ when things are just a little on the slow side. When things are busy I will rack up 3000+ minutes/month on the cell phone answering calls, that's 50 hrs/month spent on the phone, or basically one man-week per month flushed down the toilet as far as productivity goes.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Boy, Kingarmory ,you hit the nail on the head.
I have a method for dealing with folks like your example. I just send it back or tell them to come get it as I'm not going to be able to do it in their time frame. Let them go drive someone else insane, they aren't your customer.
It always amazes me how some one can screw around getting something to you and then expect you to just drop everything and work on their stuff while they wait on it because they need it to go hunting in the morning.
Open at 9 and close at 6. Response- Must be nice to live the life of leisure. I damn near fell over laughing.
I could write a book on this stuff! lol
Boy, Kingarmory ,you hit the nail on the head.
I have a method for dealing with folks like your example. I just send it back or tell them to come get it as I'm not going to be able to do it in their time frame. Let them go drive someone else insane, they aren't your customer.
It always amazes me how some one can screw around getting something to you and then expect you to just drop everything and work on their stuff while they wait on it because they need it to go hunting in the morning.
Open at 9 and close at 6. Response- Must be nice to live the life of leisure. I damn near fell over laughing.
I could write a book on this stuff! lol
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mauserman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Open at 9 and close at 6. Response- Must be nice to live the life of leisure.</div></div>
Yeah that's another on that's always great to hear. I almost want to fire back saying I'll call them when I finally leave the shop at midnight
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mauserman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Open at 9 and close at 6. Response- Must be nice to live the life of leisure.</div></div>
Yeah that's another on that's always great to hear. I almost want to fire back saying I'll call them when I finally leave the shop at midnight
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Well king I don't know if this is impractical but I had an idea. Maybe on your advertisements have hours of operation and hours of customer service. When its not customer service and you have it clearly posted tell them to email you. Ultimately its your buisiness to run how you want. GL though and don't get upset over one stupid customer and quit on us cause us shooters need ya! have a good one
Well king I don't know if this is impractical but I had an idea. Maybe on your advertisements have hours of operation and hours of customer service. When its not customer service and you have it clearly posted tell them to email you. Ultimately its your buisiness to run how you want. GL though and don't get upset over one stupid customer and quit on us cause us shooters need ya! have a good one
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well king I don't know if this is impractical but I had an idea. Maybe on your advertisements have hours of operation and hours of customer service. When its not customer service and you have it clearly posted tell them to email you. Ultimately its your buisiness to run how you want. GL though and don't get upset over one stupid customer and quit on us cause us shooters need ya! have a good one </div></div>
No one ever notices the hours of operation anyways. I had some guy calling to finally pay for his barrel (after we sat on it for 9 MONTHS) and he started calling at 6AM! The phone was forwarded to my cell phone and starts ringing every 5 minutes for about an hour. He had to be looking at the hours since its posted right above the phone number on our website
I've had people do the same thing at midnight as well. The problem is that a growing percentage of our gun community brethren are getting dumber and need to be taken out to woodshed for a little 'continuation school'
BTW, normally I wouldn't be bothered by a phone call at 6AM, but I had been working til 2AM and needed the sleep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well king I don't know if this is impractical but I had an idea. Maybe on your advertisements have hours of operation and hours of customer service. When its not customer service and you have it clearly posted tell them to email you. Ultimately its your buisiness to run how you want. GL though and don't get upset over one stupid customer and quit on us cause us shooters need ya! have a good one </div></div>
No one ever notices the hours of operation anyways. I had some guy calling to finally pay for his barrel (after we sat on it for 9 MONTHS) and he started calling at 6AM! The phone was forwarded to my cell phone and starts ringing every 5 minutes for about an hour. He had to be looking at the hours since its posted right above the phone number on our website
BTW, normally I wouldn't be bothered by a phone call at 6AM, but I had been working til 2AM and needed the sleep
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
One of the downsides of shooting sports gaining a wider presence, not everyone who is coming into the sport has their head screwed on straight. Look at some of the younger folks growing up and getting into rifles, etc. J
ust like in more general society, even if the interest in firearms helps filter down the percentage of asshats with no common sense, empirically because there are more young newbies than thier used to be, the number of newbies to spread around to the various shops and ride someone's asshole for thier order has gone up.
One of the downsides of shooting sports gaining a wider presence, not everyone who is coming into the sport has their head screwed on straight. Look at some of the younger folks growing up and getting into rifles, etc. J
ust like in more general society, even if the interest in firearms helps filter down the percentage of asshats with no common sense, empirically because there are more young newbies than thier used to be, the number of newbies to spread around to the various shops and ride someone's asshole for thier order has gone up.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
Gunsmiths tend to have the worst customer service if this thread is any indication...which might be the majority of the problem.
You publish your phone number on the internet where anyone in the world can call you and you bitch about midnight and 0600 calls. You offer to provide a service to the public but bitch about half of the job(customer service side).
If you want to just make parts, make parts. Quit trying to be something you might not be.
Or, do the smart thing and hire a CS rep, utilize technology better, etc . Blaming the customer, the source of the money, is foolish and goes nowhere. People will be people, adapt and overcome.
Gunsmiths tend to have the worst customer service if this thread is any indication...which might be the majority of the problem.
You publish your phone number on the internet where anyone in the world can call you and you bitch about midnight and 0600 calls. You offer to provide a service to the public but bitch about half of the job(customer service side).
If you want to just make parts, make parts. Quit trying to be something you might not be.
Or, do the smart thing and hire a CS rep, utilize technology better, etc . Blaming the customer, the source of the money, is foolish and goes nowhere. People will be people, adapt and overcome.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
If you cant bitch online, where can you bitch? I don't think he hates his job but the oposite but I think he was just making a point
If you cant bitch online, where can you bitch? I don't think he hates his job but the oposite but I think he was just making a point
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
I can't speak for all customers but I understand my gunsmith is trying to run a business and time on the phone with me is costing him money and thus I try to limit my phone calls. On the other hand a rifle build is a major investment of money on my part which I don't have a lot of. A lot of customers have no idea how a gunsmithing business operates. I am fortunate in having a gunsmith over in the next city who could take the time to explain the whole rifle building process to me so I wouldn't be surprised if the build took longer than the stated time. After building a great product he earned my trust. One other thing is customer service. About a year ago I was doing a build and had a ministroke which cost me vision in my dominant eye and put me into a tight money situtation resulting in my inability to complete the build. I called the owner, Jim Ruiz of Predator Custom Shop and the explained the situation to him and asked him to sell the parts that I/he had purchased expecting a loss on my part of the money I had put down but he was gracious and returned all of my down payment with nothing deducted. Needless to say , I was overwhelmed and thus he will always have my loyalty and business. So there you have it in a nutshell I think, educate, communicate and have great customer service (and try to work around the few jerk customers out there)
I can't speak for all customers but I understand my gunsmith is trying to run a business and time on the phone with me is costing him money and thus I try to limit my phone calls. On the other hand a rifle build is a major investment of money on my part which I don't have a lot of. A lot of customers have no idea how a gunsmithing business operates. I am fortunate in having a gunsmith over in the next city who could take the time to explain the whole rifle building process to me so I wouldn't be surprised if the build took longer than the stated time. After building a great product he earned my trust. One other thing is customer service. About a year ago I was doing a build and had a ministroke which cost me vision in my dominant eye and put me into a tight money situtation resulting in my inability to complete the build. I called the owner, Jim Ruiz of Predator Custom Shop and the explained the situation to him and asked him to sell the parts that I/he had purchased expecting a loss on my part of the money I had put down but he was gracious and returned all of my down payment with nothing deducted. Needless to say , I was overwhelmed and thus he will always have my loyalty and business. So there you have it in a nutshell I think, educate, communicate and have great customer service (and try to work around the few jerk customers out there)
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_Biased_Obser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or, do the smart thing and <span style="text-decoration: line-through">hire</span> <span style="color: #CC0000">marry</span> a CS rep, utilize technology better, etc.</div></div>
We wives work cheap.
And I understand the frustration here as I handle the customer calls while the hubby works. Fortunately I have a higher tolerance for bravo sierra than he does.
Also, after receiving calls after 10 p.m. and before 6 a.m. we started turning the phone off at night. Nothing against you folks in California, but don't expect a happy camper on the other end of the line when you call someone on the east coast at 9 p.m. your local time.
I will agree that gunsmiths have the same problem that many gun dealers do - they like guns, or they like working on guns, and while they may be good at it, they fail because they know nothing about running a business.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_Biased_Obser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or, do the smart thing and <span style="text-decoration: line-through">hire</span> <span style="color: #CC0000">marry</span> a CS rep, utilize technology better, etc.</div></div>
We wives work cheap.
And I understand the frustration here as I handle the customer calls while the hubby works. Fortunately I have a higher tolerance for bravo sierra than he does.
Also, after receiving calls after 10 p.m. and before 6 a.m. we started turning the phone off at night. Nothing against you folks in California, but don't expect a happy camper on the other end of the line when you call someone on the east coast at 9 p.m. your local time.
I will agree that gunsmiths have the same problem that many gun dealers do - they like guns, or they like working on guns, and while they may be good at it, they fail because they know nothing about running a business.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: planalpha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bcr229, I would assume this is the case for the well established smiths, hence the freakishly long wait times they have. But I guess I was thinking more about the new guys going off on their own or for anyone considering entering the trade. I thought that would be a huge barrier for them and that's who I was envisioning would benefit from some mechanism to connect with potential clients. </div></div>
Gunsmiths can advertise free at many places, including GunBroker. We've also gotten a ton of referrals from leaving a stack of business cards at places like the local NAPA.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: planalpha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bcr229, I would assume this is the case for the well established smiths, hence the freakishly long wait times they have. But I guess I was thinking more about the new guys going off on their own or for anyone considering entering the trade. I thought that would be a huge barrier for them and that's who I was envisioning would benefit from some mechanism to connect with potential clients. </div></div>
Gunsmiths can advertise free at many places, including GunBroker. We've also gotten a ton of referrals from leaving a stack of business cards at places like the local NAPA.
Re: Gunsmiths - a dying breed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_Biased_Obser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunsmiths tend to have the worst customer service if this thread is any indication...which might be the majority of the problem.
You publish your phone number on the internet where anyone in the world can call you and you bitch about midnight and 0600 calls. You offer to provide a service to the public but bitch about half of the job(customer service side).
If you want to just make parts, make parts. Quit trying to be something you might not be.
Or, do the smart thing and hire a CS rep, utilize technology better, etc . Blaming the customer, the source of the money, is foolish and goes nowhere. People will be people, adapt and overcome. </div></div>
Thanks for walking a mile in my shoes before opening your mouth. Would you like a cork to cram in your piehole or is that foot fitting OK?
We only do install and smithing work for LE and commercial customers any more, a lot less logistics headaches and we're doing several duplicate installs so the retooling time is a lot less.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_Biased_Obser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunsmiths tend to have the worst customer service if this thread is any indication...which might be the majority of the problem.
You publish your phone number on the internet where anyone in the world can call you and you bitch about midnight and 0600 calls. You offer to provide a service to the public but bitch about half of the job(customer service side).
If you want to just make parts, make parts. Quit trying to be something you might not be.
Or, do the smart thing and hire a CS rep, utilize technology better, etc . Blaming the customer, the source of the money, is foolish and goes nowhere. People will be people, adapt and overcome. </div></div>
Thanks for walking a mile in my shoes before opening your mouth. Would you like a cork to cram in your piehole or is that foot fitting OK?
We only do install and smithing work for LE and commercial customers any more, a lot less logistics headaches and we're doing several duplicate installs so the retooling time is a lot less.
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