Rifle Scopes H59 or Tremor?
- Thread starter WT1
- Start date
I've never dialed my T3 except to zero it ... I shoot it with 7.62x51(20) 175gr or 6.5G(18) ... out to 900yds ... and hold for everything ... I do have to give up a little magnification after 800yds so I can more reticle ...
If I ever shoot a t3 off the .300WM(24) I will dial 5 mils ... and then my wind dot values will be cut in half ... but still usable in more than half the conditions I face around here. Cranking 10 mils quarters the wind dots and I think I'd shift to mils for wind at that point. But ability to adjust for wind without looking at any aids helps get hits faster ...
Here's the tremor 3 manual for those that had questions about the reticle ...
http://appliedballisticsllc.com/User Guides/Tremor 3 presentation civ.pdf
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And the reason I wanted a no-dial reticle is I got range finders on the rifles and you need to be on your zero distance for the range finders to be accurate.
If I ever shoot a t3 off the .300WM(24) I will dial 5 mils ... and then my wind dot values will be cut in half ... but still usable in more than half the conditions I face around here. Cranking 10 mils quarters the wind dots and I think I'd shift to mils for wind at that point. But ability to adjust for wind without looking at any aids helps get hits faster ...
Here's the tremor 3 manual for those that had questions about the reticle ...
http://appliedballisticsllc.com/User Guides/Tremor 3 presentation civ.pdf
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And the reason I wanted a no-dial reticle is I got range finders on the rifles and you need to be on your zero distance for the range finders to be accurate.
I'm really enjoying this thread and learning a lot so thanks guys. My two questions (I posted in another thread) are based within the competition space. I'm from the "know your DOPE school and am happy to dial for range - but is there a solution here I am missing?
Will you dial to the range and use the dots as corrections or will you zero at a set range? (Yes I know the theory but what is really happening out of the box) - wigwamitus posts have been fan
And on the other thread, I saw the reticle "pop" between 16 and 20 power in the link. Is that the practical competition power band for people?
Interested in other's experiences - I'm in a massive argument with friends but I am the first to admit I still do not know (and still not able to form an opinion) on the two points above.
Will you dial to the range and use the dots as corrections or will you zero at a set range? (Yes I know the theory but what is really happening out of the box) - wigwamitus posts have been fan
And on the other thread, I saw the reticle "pop" between 16 and 20 power in the link. Is that the practical competition power band for people?
Interested in other's experiences - I'm in a massive argument with friends but I am the first to admit I still do not know (and still not able to form an opinion) on the two points above.
I use the h59.
Not a fan of "wind dots" myself and the reticles are busy enough.
When I call dope for a target I get a drop + wind hold in mils.
If I had the dots and used it it's sure be nice I suppose, but if you're going to shoot say a prayer stage, you can dial an h59 for the closest target then add mil hold for the rest. Doesn't matter what you dial, mils are mils are mils.
I'd rather not have the extra wind dots floating around in my vision being useless cuz I dialed 3.6 mils instead of 6.2 or whatever is needed to get the square root of the wind hold to make the dot work after you dial.
Mils are mils are mils and always work regardless of what your turrets are set on.
Just my humble opinion. Not saying t3 users are wrong but I'll dial almost every target even with the big holdover reticle.
Not a fan of "wind dots" myself and the reticles are busy enough.
When I call dope for a target I get a drop + wind hold in mils.
If I had the dots and used it it's sure be nice I suppose, but if you're going to shoot say a prayer stage, you can dial an h59 for the closest target then add mil hold for the rest. Doesn't matter what you dial, mils are mils are mils.
I'd rather not have the extra wind dots floating around in my vision being useless cuz I dialed 3.6 mils instead of 6.2 or whatever is needed to get the square root of the wind hold to make the dot work after you dial.
Mils are mils are mils and always work regardless of what your turrets are set on.
Just my humble opinion. Not saying t3 users are wrong but I'll dial almost every target even with the big holdover reticle.
PRS match ... these targets were 500-600yds ... the scope is on 22x (for the pic) ...
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These targets were also 500-600yds ...
For some reason, the only pics I took were of the close distance targets ...
I was doing most of my shooting between 15-20x ... and the farther out the targets, the closer I was getting to 15x, as I wanted to keep the spot I was holding to for elevation, not in the bottom 1/4 of the reticle ... so I would loose magnification to gain reticle. That might sound backwards ... the more distant the shot, the more I would lower the magnification ... but this is a NO DIAL reticle ... and that's how they work ...
Now for this match, I didn't bring enough gun ... I was shooting a 6.5G(18) with ELD-M 123 bullets and as I got over 900yds I was starting to get over 10 mils on the reticle, which is where I run out of wind dots ... extrapolating down to 11 mils is fine, so I was able to shoot up to 980yds ... but the targets over 1,000 I had to pass on.
But if you must shoot over 1000yds then you have 2 choices ...
01 - Crank up 10 mils and switch to "classic" mil holding for wind ...
02 - Crank up to 5 mils and accept a halving of your wind dot values ...
I zero at 100yds .. both the day scope and the range finders ... which I mostly use when hunting at night ... but I use them a lot for that ! For the PRS I've shot, they tell us the distances to the targets ... though finding all the targets hiding out there is a bit of a challenge
But the range finders are only valid at the zero distance ... hence no dial ... (otherwise you have to dial to shoot dial to range and dial to shoot and dial to range ... ) ...
So, I do not dial to the range ... I hold.
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If your competition has UKD targets AND is timed ... this will help with the elevations if you use a rifle mounted range finder.
As to the wind dots, the manual I posted explains how to calibrate your wind dots. Roughly speaking ... 3 mph per dor for 5.56 ... 4 mph per dot for .308 .... 5 mph per dot for .300WM ... you estimate the wind in mph and hold in mph ... and this will help with any timed competition.
It is different ... and if you are wedded to the classical mil/moa - hash reticles ... you might not be able to make the paradigm shift ... for me ... I didn't understand the wind dots until I used them ... and then I did understand them and then I was WOW !!! ... and I'd better go back and practice the "classical" way for wind ... because I have NOT practiced it since I got my t3 reticle scopes back in February !
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These targets were also 500-600yds ...
For some reason, the only pics I took were of the close distance targets ...
I was doing most of my shooting between 15-20x ... and the farther out the targets, the closer I was getting to 15x, as I wanted to keep the spot I was holding to for elevation, not in the bottom 1/4 of the reticle ... so I would loose magnification to gain reticle. That might sound backwards ... the more distant the shot, the more I would lower the magnification ... but this is a NO DIAL reticle ... and that's how they work ...
Now for this match, I didn't bring enough gun ... I was shooting a 6.5G(18) with ELD-M 123 bullets and as I got over 900yds I was starting to get over 10 mils on the reticle, which is where I run out of wind dots ... extrapolating down to 11 mils is fine, so I was able to shoot up to 980yds ... but the targets over 1,000 I had to pass on.
But if you must shoot over 1000yds then you have 2 choices ...
01 - Crank up 10 mils and switch to "classic" mil holding for wind ...
02 - Crank up to 5 mils and accept a halving of your wind dot values ...
I zero at 100yds .. both the day scope and the range finders ... which I mostly use when hunting at night ... but I use them a lot for that ! For the PRS I've shot, they tell us the distances to the targets ... though finding all the targets hiding out there is a bit of a challenge
But the range finders are only valid at the zero distance ... hence no dial ... (otherwise you have to dial to shoot dial to range and dial to shoot and dial to range ... ) ...
So, I do not dial to the range ... I hold.
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If your competition has UKD targets AND is timed ... this will help with the elevations if you use a rifle mounted range finder.
As to the wind dots, the manual I posted explains how to calibrate your wind dots. Roughly speaking ... 3 mph per dor for 5.56 ... 4 mph per dot for .308 .... 5 mph per dot for .300WM ... you estimate the wind in mph and hold in mph ... and this will help with any timed competition.
It is different ... and if you are wedded to the classical mil/moa - hash reticles ... you might not be able to make the paradigm shift ... for me ... I didn't understand the wind dots until I used them ... and then I did understand them and then I was WOW !!! ... and I'd better go back and practice the "classical" way for wind ... because I have NOT practiced it since I got my t3 reticle scopes back in February !
Aye, then I'd say T3 not for you ... as you say it "can" be used ... but T3 is designed to be a NO DIAL reticle ... and is optimal for that style ... otherwise ... as you say ... the wind dots are just extra stuff handing around ...
Very useful and great info. I suppose my next question is using the LRF in all the competitions?
Have you tried it moving targets?
I need trigger time to learn and decide.
Have you tried it moving targets?
I need trigger time to learn and decide.
Definitely sounds like you got the hang of it and are up and running!
I'd like a better formula for movers with my h59. Or else they could just remove those mover numbers all together for me lol.
You can use it in the known distance competitions if you want to validate the distances you are given, but it isn't required.
Do yotes and hogs, and coons and opossum count as moving targets (when they are moving) ? If so, then yes !
Not too hard to do your own formula ... set up a spreadsheet with your time of flight to 300yds in 50yds increments. Then calculate the distances the critters can move from 5 mph to 40 mph (yote top speed) in 5 mph increments in those times (your times of flight to those 50 yd increments) ... and dump that into a spreadsheet and you'll have your formula ...
You can also use your ballistic calculator to give you those values and dump into a spreadsheet ... you should note that the hold actually does not change the amount of lead to hold in MILs .... not by much anyway ... hence the Horus formula ... you will wind up with something close ...
What’s the point of having the h59 if you’re dialing most every shot (or any grid reticle)?
So nobody is using the Leupold FFP CCH reticle or the Nightforce Mil-XT, then? It's all H-59 and Tremor?
I have 2 T3s and a H59. T3s easier with practice and wind dots make it pretty easy. IMO. Interested in new NF Reticle.
I've never really dialed for wind ... ok in a high cross wind shooting the german plastic 7.62 rounds ... at 150 yds ... they were drifting 14 MILs, six years ago, so I did dial for wind that time (with a TMR reticle) ... but since then, 5 years later, I do not think I've dialed for wind once.
But I'd like to try it !
I think this ^^ is the reticle Carlos Hathcock used in his 8x unertl on the W70 rifle ... and it is hard to argue with his results ...
And it would be fun to try it. And yes, CH dialed for both elevation AND wind ... in combat !
We are all doing the same things really, we have to be ...
Though there is more than one way to do it now ... in detail ... So, @WT1 what problem are you trying to solve !!??
Holdover reticles exist for those who want to hold over ... neo-classical mil/moa-hash reticles exist for those who want to dial elevation ... and classical duplex style reticles exist for those who want to dial both elevation and wind ... pick your poison and go shootin' !!!
When I'm buying a gun, I first pick the bullet I want to shoot ... then I look at cartridges that use that bullet, then I look at rifles than shoot those cartridges ... when I think I want a new scope ... I first pick the reticle ... then I look at scopes that come with that reticle ... if you really can't decide, just pic one and if you hate it, sell and think of the "loss" as the "rent"
Or call some large dealers and see if they will "rent" you one for a couple of weeks.==
EDIT: Another idea ... I know Leupold will swap the reticles in a scope ... (for a reasonable fee in my experience) ... so you could call Leupold and talk to the custom shop and discuss whether they could change a T3 to a CCH, for example. Make sure you validate the model of scope can be switched between the reticles you want - they cannot swap any reticle in any scope - but if they ever offered the reticle in the scope, they can probably do it. The regular guys that answer the phone, might give you a different answer than the custom shop, so make sure you talk to the custom shop. That way your risk would just be limited to the cost of swapping the reticles. For me, I wanted to switch my Mk6 3-18x H58 M5B2 (non-illuminated) to a Mk6 3-18x T3 M5C2 (illuminated). The basic phone guy said can't go from non-illum to illum but he said ask the custom shop, so I did and they said they could do it. They said it would take 8 weeks, they got it done in 4 weeks.
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So I redid the formula from scratch with real data from my 6.5G(18) shooting ELD-M 123 at MV 2389 (per MSv3)
And as you can see, it comes out pretty close to the horus 1.25 mils per 2 mph round off formula ...
But by building such a spreadsheet, you can plug in any of your gun/ammo combinations and verify or adjust your holds, as indicated!
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EDIT
And here's a chart for my 7.62(20) with the FGMM 175gr
As you can see, this chart is closer to the Horus round off formula and I suspect that is because the H-formula was attempting to solve for the military calibers 7.62x51, 7.62x67 and .338LM ... and for those is works pretty well. The 6.5G(18) 123 ELM-D however has a lower MV and hence a longer time of flight and so the model starts to fall apart as you approach the 40 mph at 300yds edge case. But it shows that the key variable is your est. of the speed of the critter. You can either try to use this formula or you can "wing it" like you are a football quarterback throwing a pass. And TBH, I still do it that way ... and inside 200yds it works ok ... I want to build a mover practice setup, but have not yet. But I think it would take a good bit of practice to really use the horus method for hunting because you usually have so little time ... and do we need traffic cop speed LIDARs when we go hunting !!??
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For PRS/NRL the thing to do is use whatever you can to take the best advantage of a stage lay out.
As I mentioned earlier I use the H59.
Off the bipod in prone you can get away with holdovers and holdoffs because you are steady enough. You should already have your wind holds memorized or written down. If you miss it's as simple as adjusting the holdoff by measuring with the reticle comparing POI to POA. I've won a long range field course style series 90%+ holding over and off, so very little dialing. If you are shooting enough you'll have a intuition of where to aim in the wind and those .2's help.
Also it saves time when you holdover, I used that extra time to acquire a target when it was hard to find, build a stronger position, and pay more attention to wind. Watching the guys dialing elevation they struggled sometimes completing the stages, by making hasty shots, and hasty wind calls because they were running low on time.
Off unsteady obstacles you want to dial elevation so you have a central aiming point, it is counter intuitive holding over in these situations anyway because you'll need to make snap shots. I find it easier to hold for a light to medium wind in these situations and use the edge of the steel as a gauge because that's an exact place to aim rather the middle of the steel, usually the bullet will hit somewhere in the steel and if it doesn't you can see how many .1 mils to correct for. As an example, so holding for middle steel requires say a .5 mil hold for wind but aiming at the edge requires only a .2 mil hold to hit center. If it's windy but consistent then it's better to dial wind. Easier to see, read, and correct for a near miss vs holding out 1.5 mils and having to find in the reticle 1.7 mills as an adjustment for windage, right?!
I very rarely have dialed some and also used holdovers, really only for ELR when I ran out of elevation. Also I don't use holdunders, at least I haven't needed to yet. I'm at 15x a lot because I need the wider FOV to acquire targets faster, at 15x in the H59 there is plenty of elevation in the reticle for most senarios.
The H59 is a great holdover/holdoff reticle but because you have it don't feel like you have to holdover or off all the time. There are situations where dialing both windage and elevation are more beneficial.
As I mentioned earlier I use the H59.
Off the bipod in prone you can get away with holdovers and holdoffs because you are steady enough. You should already have your wind holds memorized or written down. If you miss it's as simple as adjusting the holdoff by measuring with the reticle comparing POI to POA. I've won a long range field course style series 90%+ holding over and off, so very little dialing. If you are shooting enough you'll have a intuition of where to aim in the wind and those .2's help.
Also it saves time when you holdover, I used that extra time to acquire a target when it was hard to find, build a stronger position, and pay more attention to wind. Watching the guys dialing elevation they struggled sometimes completing the stages, by making hasty shots, and hasty wind calls because they were running low on time.
Off unsteady obstacles you want to dial elevation so you have a central aiming point, it is counter intuitive holding over in these situations anyway because you'll need to make snap shots. I find it easier to hold for a light to medium wind in these situations and use the edge of the steel as a gauge because that's an exact place to aim rather the middle of the steel, usually the bullet will hit somewhere in the steel and if it doesn't you can see how many .1 mils to correct for. As an example, so holding for middle steel requires say a .5 mil hold for wind but aiming at the edge requires only a .2 mil hold to hit center. If it's windy but consistent then it's better to dial wind. Easier to see, read, and correct for a near miss vs holding out 1.5 mils and having to find in the reticle 1.7 mills as an adjustment for windage, right?!
I very rarely have dialed some and also used holdovers, really only for ELR when I ran out of elevation. Also I don't use holdunders, at least I haven't needed to yet. I'm at 15x a lot because I need the wider FOV to acquire targets faster, at 15x in the H59 there is plenty of elevation in the reticle for most senarios.
The H59 is a great holdover/holdoff reticle but because you have it don't feel like you have to holdover or off all the time. There are situations where dialing both windage and elevation are more beneficial.
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To drill down a little bit further, do you think this is a training thing or a generational (CoD) thing? I can see how this system would cut training time, costs and burden - especially when compared with the hours and days I spent on the range.
As a social experiment I would love to stick a new kid on an Xmas tree and get them to shoot and stage then swap to a MIL Hash and DOPE card and see what the difference is.
As a social experiment I would love to stick a new kid on an Xmas tree and get them to shoot and stage then swap to a MIL Hash and DOPE card and see what the difference is.
Well, wigwamitus, the problem, if you can call it a problem, that I'm trying to "solve" is to determine the best reticle option of those discussed so far, including the two I mentioned in the title of the thread, which I started, and those introduced during the discussion by myself or others, the best reticle for the money without buying and selling and buying and selling until I find one suitable for my circumstances. Where I live the stores, even the Cabelas store, do not have these types of scopes. I live in Wisconsin, where Vortex is located, and you won't even find the Razor HD AMG on the shelves, though Vortex was kind enough to invite me to their showroom.
By the time you buy and sell and buy and sell and buy and sell until you find what works for you, which is what I have to do if i don't simply use a Mil-Dot or TMR reticle, both excellent choices, by the time you have bought and sold several times, with the cost of shipping included and now tax on many internet purchases, if you knew exactly what you wanted, which is where I am going with this and I think it is obvious unless you are rattling off about something else, you could have saved enough money avoiding all of the buying and selling and buying and selling and paying for all of the shipping and taxes and then selling used at a discount because what you purchased isn't working for YOU and losing loads of cash, you could have saved enough to actually buy the scope you want. I also don't want to buy just to look through and return to the retailer so they have a refurb overload or returns to factory.
I suppose you could see that as a problem that I'd be trying to solve. Yes, yes indeed.
There is a lot of hype in the optics market. It's big hype. Then, wigwamitus, there appear to me anyway to be those posing as casual members but having taken on personna that clearly indicate they are steering, and perhaps pressuring, members towards particular products instead of helping them find what would be the best product for them, if you get my "drift." Nothing wrong with that, I guess.
Scopes often cost many times what a rifle costs and the purchase is often unsatisfactory to many. One only needs to look in the optics for sale forums for optics of very high dollar value of recent make for sale to see that. There are loads of them. I'm trying to avoid the hype and looking for real life experiences.
I'm sure you can understand that.
I hope that's allowed.
By the time you buy and sell and buy and sell and buy and sell until you find what works for you, which is what I have to do if i don't simply use a Mil-Dot or TMR reticle, both excellent choices, by the time you have bought and sold several times, with the cost of shipping included and now tax on many internet purchases, if you knew exactly what you wanted, which is where I am going with this and I think it is obvious unless you are rattling off about something else, you could have saved enough money avoiding all of the buying and selling and buying and selling and paying for all of the shipping and taxes and then selling used at a discount because what you purchased isn't working for YOU and losing loads of cash, you could have saved enough to actually buy the scope you want. I also don't want to buy just to look through and return to the retailer so they have a refurb overload or returns to factory.
I suppose you could see that as a problem that I'd be trying to solve. Yes, yes indeed.
There is a lot of hype in the optics market. It's big hype. Then, wigwamitus, there appear to me anyway to be those posing as casual members but having taken on personna that clearly indicate they are steering, and perhaps pressuring, members towards particular products instead of helping them find what would be the best product for them, if you get my "drift." Nothing wrong with that, I guess.
Scopes often cost many times what a rifle costs and the purchase is often unsatisfactory to many. One only needs to look in the optics for sale forums for optics of very high dollar value of recent make for sale to see that. There are loads of them. I'm trying to avoid the hype and looking for real life experiences.
I'm sure you can understand that.
I hope that's allowed.
So, @WT1 what problem are you trying to solve !!??
Holdover reticles exist for those who want to hold over ... neo-classical mil/moa-hash reticles exist for those who want to dial elevation ... and classical duplex style reticles exist for those who want to dial both elevation and wind ... pick your poison and go shootin' !!!
When I'm buying a gun, I first pick the bullet I want to shoot ... then I look at cartridges that use that bullet, then I look at rifles than shoot those cartridges ... when I think I want a new scope ... I first pick the reticle ... then I look at scopes that come with that reticle ... if you really can't decide, just pic one and if you hate it, sell and think of the "loss" as the "rent"
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EDIT: Another idea ... I know Leupold will swap the reticles in a scope ... (for a reasonable fee in my experience) ... so you could call Leupold and talk to the custom shop and discuss whether they could change a T3 to a CCH, for example. Make sure you validate the model of scope can be switched between the reticles you want - they cannot swap any reticle in any scope - but if they ever offered the reticle in the scope, they can probably do it. The regular guys that answer the phone, might give you a different answer than the custom shop, so make sure you talk to the custom shop. That way your risk would just be limited to the cost of swapping the reticles. For me, I wanted to switch my Mk6 3-18x H58 M5B2 (non-illuminated) to a Mk6 3-18x T3 M5C2 (illuminated). The basic phone guy said can't go from non-illum to illum but he said ask the custom shop, so I did and they said they could do it. They said it would take 8 weeks, they got it done in 4 weeks.
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I am not a fan of thin reticle at all. I think most every ffp reticle are too thin and trending thinner unfortunately. I agree with your last sentence. I have never missed a target because of some of the thicker ffp scope reticle that I use. I have had trouble seeing the reticle on many of the thinner reticle that I own when dialed back. Some reticle are hard to see dialed down to 10x
Hey @WT1 ,,, your problem sounds very similar to my problem
Since moving to rural area six years ago, I've been able to setup some berms and start shooting scoped rifles. Yes, I'd shot rifles with iron sights before, in the Army and otherwise, but not with scopes. Since then, I've spend about 80% of my gun related budget (not including ammo) on optics ... and within that 80% was on night optics ... so 64% total on night optics and 16% of day optics and 20% on other.
And I'd say as I learn more, my needs/wants change. So I'm on my 3rd generation of crap now, having sold most of the first 2 generations of crap. But I have learned that as I gain more experience, my needs change.
I didn't sell out to buy/sell, buy/sell with the thermals and the rifles, but that's want happened. I sold the crappy thermals and bought higher end thermals. And I sold heavy rifles and bought light rifles. Well, that's the high level. But day optics was always third fiddle. I've had several L&S ... some mk4s and a mk6, but didn't get my first NF until Feb. So three of my 5 day scopes are mil-hash and two are T3. I'd rather have all T3, but need to make more money first ! And one is even a TMR. And they all work. Just more dialing with the TMR.
No stores around here either ... so I just do my research and takes my chances. That said, the T3 was quite a leap for me ... and after I got it, I still wasn't sold .. and didn't understand the manual words about the wind dots ... but I got out there and shot with it and figured it out. Can you hit targets with a TMR? Absolutely. Can you hit unknown distance targets (with a radius on top) all around the compass (changing winds) faster with a T3 ? I think so, yes. But if you shooting involves no time pressure, then I don't think the T3 helps. I believe its design purpose is to enable faster shots again multiple unknown distance targets in variable wind. But the tmr and a hand held range finder and a good DOPE card for the conditions you are in, will do the same thing, just a little slower.
Since moving to rural area six years ago, I've been able to setup some berms and start shooting scoped rifles. Yes, I'd shot rifles with iron sights before, in the Army and otherwise, but not with scopes. Since then, I've spend about 80% of my gun related budget (not including ammo) on optics ... and within that 80% was on night optics ... so 64% total on night optics and 16% of day optics and 20% on other.
And I'd say as I learn more, my needs/wants change. So I'm on my 3rd generation of crap now, having sold most of the first 2 generations of crap. But I have learned that as I gain more experience, my needs change.
I didn't sell out to buy/sell, buy/sell with the thermals and the rifles, but that's want happened. I sold the crappy thermals and bought higher end thermals. And I sold heavy rifles and bought light rifles. Well, that's the high level. But day optics was always third fiddle. I've had several L&S ... some mk4s and a mk6, but didn't get my first NF until Feb. So three of my 5 day scopes are mil-hash and two are T3. I'd rather have all T3, but need to make more money first ! And one is even a TMR. And they all work. Just more dialing with the TMR.
No stores around here either ... so I just do my research and takes my chances. That said, the T3 was quite a leap for me ... and after I got it, I still wasn't sold .. and didn't understand the manual words about the wind dots ... but I got out there and shot with it and figured it out. Can you hit targets with a TMR? Absolutely. Can you hit unknown distance targets (with a radius on top) all around the compass (changing winds) faster with a T3 ? I think so, yes. But if you shooting involves no time pressure, then I don't think the T3 helps. I believe its design purpose is to enable faster shots again multiple unknown distance targets in variable wind. But the tmr and a hand held range finder and a good DOPE card for the conditions you are in, will do the same thing, just a little slower.
I'd like to meld a reticle good for PRS and long range hunting. Don't really want to rule anything out, yet. I have a TMR and like it. For PRS it is just not quick enough.
I went to The Winter Sniper Challenge at Racine County Line Rifle Club today. Lots of fun. Excellent staging. First time doing such a competition and not just watching. Used MilDots. If you have 90 seconds to hit ten targets at varying ranges with a 308, MilDots are not quick enough. You hit what you are aiming at but for swarming targets in a PRS style match, it is just not quick enough to hit all of them. And you need at least 20X magnification.
The reticles such as The H59 and Tremor as well as the Vortex EBR-7B MRAD are ideal and I must admit, the price point on the Leupold Mark 5 with the FFP CCH reticle is very appealing.
I'm more used to gathering and collecting than shooting anyway. So the extra information provided by the aforementioned reticles is very helpful.
I went to The Winter Sniper Challenge at Racine County Line Rifle Club today. Lots of fun. Excellent staging. First time doing such a competition and not just watching. Used MilDots. If you have 90 seconds to hit ten targets at varying ranges with a 308, MilDots are not quick enough. You hit what you are aiming at but for swarming targets in a PRS style match, it is just not quick enough to hit all of them. And you need at least 20X magnification.
The reticles such as The H59 and Tremor as well as the Vortex EBR-7B MRAD are ideal and I must admit, the price point on the Leupold Mark 5 with the FFP CCH reticle is very appealing.
I'm more used to gathering and collecting than shooting anyway. So the extra information provided by the aforementioned reticles is very helpful.
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From where I sit, it seems like this is the breakdown ...
Dial elevation and windage ... this applies to the older duplex reticles or their equivalents, i.e. no hash marks for windage or elevation. Must dial both for distances beyond a few hundred yards.
Dial for elevation, hold for windage ... this applies to the mil/moa dot/hash reticles, like the TMR ... you can hold for both ... but after you need about 1-2 mils of windage, you are "out in space" and then better dial for elevation so you get some sub-tensions to hold with. Of course you can also dial for both. but the purpose of the hash marks, is so you don't have to.
Hold for elevation, hold for wind ... this applies to the "holdover" or "christmas tree" reticles ... and there are many such these days.
Hold for elevation, hold for wind in MPH ... as far as I know, this applies only to the tremor 2 and 3 and the Tubb's reticles ... i.e. the reticles with Wind Dots. With these reticles, you do not have to do any arithmetic for the wind. You estimate in MPH and hold in MPH.
And last but not least, the Tubb's reticle by itself is the only reticle that is essentially a full ballistic calculator ... on the reticle ... I have been tempted, but I have to admit, I don't have the guts. I fear if I got one of them ... I'd have to sell everything and get nothing but Tubb's reticles ... and that would take years. Hecque, I'm already in that boat with the T3s !!!
In summary they ALL work. The ability to hold speeds things up, but perhaps requires more practice to avoid loosing some accuracy. I'm not sure about that, but I've seen some people say it. I do not detect an accuracy issue. Though in the field, my targets are typically IPSC(2/3) ... though at some distances I shoot only at the 6x6 faces ... but regardless ... none of those targets are submoa. A 12 inch steel at 900yds is 1.33 moa. And 6 inch steel at 600yds is 1 MOA ... etc.
So, holding is faster, but you still have to do the arithmetic or at least look at your ballistic calculator, unless you have a ballistic range finder on your rifle.
The wind dots eliminate reference to anything other than a wind meter for the wind aspect, so they speed up the wind hold.
And that's about it, in summary. All the variations within those categories are just personal preference in my book ... but each of these categories of reticle does present a slightly different set of activities the shooter performs to engage the targets.
==
The PRS matches I've shot in did have heavy time pressure ... for the last one I'd say no one in my squad was even able to fire at all the targets. Not even close. We had a tough time just FINDING the targets
If your shooting has no time pressure, then duplex reticles work fine. But the more time pressure you have, the farther down the category list you are likely to slide.
Dial elevation and windage ... this applies to the older duplex reticles or their equivalents, i.e. no hash marks for windage or elevation. Must dial both for distances beyond a few hundred yards.
Dial for elevation, hold for windage ... this applies to the mil/moa dot/hash reticles, like the TMR ... you can hold for both ... but after you need about 1-2 mils of windage, you are "out in space" and then better dial for elevation so you get some sub-tensions to hold with. Of course you can also dial for both. but the purpose of the hash marks, is so you don't have to.
Hold for elevation, hold for wind ... this applies to the "holdover" or "christmas tree" reticles ... and there are many such these days.
Hold for elevation, hold for wind in MPH ... as far as I know, this applies only to the tremor 2 and 3 and the Tubb's reticles ... i.e. the reticles with Wind Dots. With these reticles, you do not have to do any arithmetic for the wind. You estimate in MPH and hold in MPH.
And last but not least, the Tubb's reticle by itself is the only reticle that is essentially a full ballistic calculator ... on the reticle ... I have been tempted, but I have to admit, I don't have the guts. I fear if I got one of them ... I'd have to sell everything and get nothing but Tubb's reticles ... and that would take years. Hecque, I'm already in that boat with the T3s !!!
In summary they ALL work. The ability to hold speeds things up, but perhaps requires more practice to avoid loosing some accuracy. I'm not sure about that, but I've seen some people say it. I do not detect an accuracy issue. Though in the field, my targets are typically IPSC(2/3) ... though at some distances I shoot only at the 6x6 faces ... but regardless ... none of those targets are submoa. A 12 inch steel at 900yds is 1.33 moa. And 6 inch steel at 600yds is 1 MOA ... etc.
So, holding is faster, but you still have to do the arithmetic or at least look at your ballistic calculator, unless you have a ballistic range finder on your rifle.
The wind dots eliminate reference to anything other than a wind meter for the wind aspect, so they speed up the wind hold.
And that's about it, in summary. All the variations within those categories are just personal preference in my book ... but each of these categories of reticle does present a slightly different set of activities the shooter performs to engage the targets.
==
The PRS matches I've shot in did have heavy time pressure ... for the last one I'd say no one in my squad was even able to fire at all the targets. Not even close. We had a tough time just FINDING the targets
If your shooting has no time pressure, then duplex reticles work fine. But the more time pressure you have, the farther down the category list you are likely to slide.
seems like now the conversation could turn to Mil XT vs Tremor 3. that is my debate currently
That's pretty simple. Do you want wind dots or not ?
What do wind dots buy you? Ability to think and shoot in terms of MPH. My kestrel 2500 NV shows me the average, the high and the current wind. So for a give 2 min wind read, I am looking at the current speed and listening to the trees, calibrating the wind speeds I see to the sounds I hear ... Once the 2 mins is up I click over to the avg and high speeds. I write all that in my book, then I get on the gun, observe the wind indicators further down range and make my final wind estimate in MPH and shoot. As I am shooting, as I hear the wind rise and fall, I adjust my MPH estimate and shoot.
Each rifle/ammo combination will produce a slightly different "wind value" for each dot. And you can use decimals if you like when calculating the wind value. But simplistically speaking it roughly works out like.
5.56 == 3 MPH per dot
7.62 == 4 MPH per dot
.300WM = 5 MPH per dot
So, if you would rather skip any conversion process when calculating your wind holds, then the T3 will get you there, the MilXT will not.
What do wind dots buy you? Ability to think and shoot in terms of MPH. My kestrel 2500 NV shows me the average, the high and the current wind. So for a give 2 min wind read, I am looking at the current speed and listening to the trees, calibrating the wind speeds I see to the sounds I hear ... Once the 2 mins is up I click over to the avg and high speeds. I write all that in my book, then I get on the gun, observe the wind indicators further down range and make my final wind estimate in MPH and shoot. As I am shooting, as I hear the wind rise and fall, I adjust my MPH estimate and shoot.
Each rifle/ammo combination will produce a slightly different "wind value" for each dot. And you can use decimals if you like when calculating the wind value. But simplistically speaking it roughly works out like.
5.56 == 3 MPH per dot
7.62 == 4 MPH per dot
.300WM = 5 MPH per dot
So, if you would rather skip any conversion process when calculating your wind holds, then the T3 will get you there, the MilXT will not.
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