Have a .308, want to push to 1400 yards - go to 6.5cm?

[littlepod]

Hey everyone, I currently have a Tikka T3X CTR 20" in .308. Locally I can't shoot more than 600 yards, so 168gr SMK will do fine for that, but as I go out and take some training, like the Alaska training, or some other longer range classes that will push out to 1400 yards. The .308 I have shoots great and will hold out to 1/2-2/3 moa at 600 yards with the 168gr SMK. I haven't tried 175's, or 185's, or any of the special tipped ammunition from Spark yet, as I don't have anywhere to push out further.

Training / $ to training is pricey, when looking at $1500-1800 for a week of classes, and time off work etc, so I might as well enjoy that time with the right equipment. So I'm considering maybe swapping my 308 to something else. I also don't handload, nor do I have any space currently to build a reloading station, so factory ammo until I get a new heated work shed / garage space / house...

So with a .308 I believe with Sierra TMK 175gr, .535 BC @ 2600 fps (slightly hotter spark munitions), I should be able to get out to 1075yds before I go transonic.
185gr Juggernauts @ 2525fps, go transonic around the same, but I hear they fly pretty accurately even after transonic. But I am guessing off a 20" barrel without handloading, 1050-1100 yards is going to be the cap to hit something reliably repeatably.

--

So now the question is, do I just go and buy a used 6.5cm. I can get a Tikka T3X 6.5CM 24" used ~300 rounds for around $750. The Tikkas shoot about 100fps slower, so that kind of sucks, but they're accurate. I think Hornady 147gr ELDM running a little slower @ 2600fps, should be able to push out to around 1250ish.

Question I guess is whether or not it's really worth buying a new rifle for + 200 yards, or maybe I should just build something different to push out to 1400. I could just rebarrel my 308, and then push out those 147gr ELDM's at 2700fps on a faster barrel, and that'll push me out to 1325ish. Though a new benchmark barrel + installation will be about $750 as well.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Kadams1563]

I’d go take your class with what you have. Especially since your shooting is mostly at 600

If you can’t make the hits at 1400 who cares?

 

[Supersubes]

Without a moments thought, i’d do the re-barrel route.

Edit: I agree with Kdams, who cares about 1400 yds. Looking at it as a +200 yds improvement is overly simplistic. The 6.5 will be smoking the .308 everywhere.

 

[Steel head]

I’ve seen and made hits at 1300 with FGGM 168’s.
was at about 1500’ altitude.

175’s, Berger or hornandy bullets would make it even better.

a good 6.5 bullet would hammer all of them.

 

[littlepod]

I’d go take your class with what you have. Especially since your shooting is mostly at 600

If you can’t make the hits at 1400 who cares?

Agree, and learning to make proper wind calls, having the .308 might even just be a better learning experience. I could just use this training experience to focus on getting consistent at 1000. 600 was easy, now given it wasn't gusty winds, and I know I'm making this sound simplistic, but fundamentals, and kestrels sure make life easier. Hitting 1000 with a 6.5 is probably like what I'm doing right now with my 168s @ 600.

I guess chasing the 1400 yards might not be that meaningful, and I could just have fun shooting out my 308. There will be enough people in the class to let me fool around with 6.5's, 6's, 6dashers, etc.

 

[littlepod]

If I end up replacing my barrel on the Tikka, are there any quick switch barrel systems that allow easily switching barrels in the field, similar to how AI's can do it? I see these barrel nut systems for the Tikka, but then I would be headspacing on the field, so then maybe a shouldered barrel. I am guessing trying to get 35 foot lbs of torque, w/o a vise is going to be kind of hard. Just thinking ahead if I just want to keep 1 rifle, chassis, etc and just be able to swap my barrels.

 

[Supersubes]

Just keep it simple. No need to play musical barrels.

 

[nn8734]

Have you considered a 7mm or 300 short mag for your Tikka?

At 1400+, depending upon the typical D/A where you normally shoot, I’d recommend something designed for that environment. 6.5 CMoor is great but not what I’d grab first if shooting beyond 1200.

 

[Milf Dots]

What about switching to a 6.5 prc, or a 7mm Rem?

 

[ColdSteel260]

For a match gun, move to a 6mm creed. Plenty of velocity, easy hits to 12+ and Hornady makes fantastic ammo for it.
Trying to do that with a 308 is going to be difficult.

 

[fdkay]

I think a rebarrel is in order.
You apparently reload, you COULD opt for a new .308 barrel at 24 - 26 inches, since you already have the dies etc...
You could get a 1-10 twist and shoot the 212 grain eld x with a BC of .673.
There are several companies that do pre-fit barrels, criterion, preferred barrel blanks, x-caliber etc...
You'll need an action wrench and barrel vise to get the factory tube off, or you could have a local smith remove it for you.
You'll need a barrel nut wrench and either an action wrench or barrel vise to put the new tube on.
You could go 6.5 cm, with the new winchester sta-ball 6.5, you can drive the 140 series pretty quickly.
Another option is the .260 AI, it is a significant step up from the creedmoor, but will burn your throat out faster.
My brother recently took a long range class at Whittington and used a 20" .308 and 168's. Their elevation, if memory serves, is at least 6000 feet.

 

[theLBC]

what altitude?

i've been told by self professed experts that there is no way for 1000+ out of a 20" .308 barrel at near sea level.
i don't know if that is true, but i intend to find out.

 

[b6graham]

what altitude?

i've been told by self professed experts that there is no way for 1000+ out of a 20" .308 barrel at near sea level.
i don't know if that is true, but i intend to find out.

key word there is 'self professed' because they are in fact morons

try some factory berger stuff too in 308

nothing wrong with spending $500 on a new shouldered 6.5 creed barrel for your tikka

you wont be able to quick change like an AI

 

[theLBC]

key word there is 'self professed' because they are in fact morons

try some factory berger stuff too in 308

nothing wrong with spending $500 on a new shouldered 6.5 creed barrel for your tikka

you wont be able to quick change like an AI

thanks. i will try to get to a range that long to find out for myself.

 

[Claluja]

Learn 1000 with a .308, using 175. More rewarding imho.

 

[moaorbust]

Hmm. Tough call. The real art in shooting is reading the environment and I hesitate to recommend a caliber which may hide this needed skill honing. On the other hand I feel that 1400 yards is a lot to ask of a .308 even with reloads (which you don’t do yet). You might be able to get off cheap with a base swap, perhaps a 30 or 40 moa adjustment base to account for the added drop, and re-zero your scope. A decent barrel will cost almost as much as the rifle you mentioned so I am leaning towards a new rifle for you. Sit down and honestly price it all out and what your intentions are as costs and custom always are more than intended.

 

[littlepod]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I think most likely I'll do a PR101 class with my 308, and then do the PR201 class a month or two later with the rebarrel.

Benchmark barrels is local and I think they will do everything with the install for about 700.

 

[bbyars]

1225yds was fairly easy with a factory savage 110 26" .308 with 175 GMM. After that the next yardage we shot was 1511 yds and could not get a hit.

On the other hand I was on target within 3 shots at 1511 yds with a rebarreled rem 700 26" 6.5 creedmoor shooting handloads. I did not test any factory ammo, but I will also say that there are alot of PRS guys that shoot factory ammo like Prime, Hornady, and GMM.

 

[Kbh]

I shoot a 308 with 24'' 1-10 twist barrel using loads with 185 jugs or 185 scenars at about 2675 fps out to 1125 and 1400 regularly. The scenars have a considerably lower BC but are super accurate and consistent. I can get 1st and 2nd round hits pretty reliably at 1125. The 1400 plate is difficult because its hard to spot misses with the current backstop and its hard to spot hits on the plate but I still hit it fairly often. I don't shoot groups but my best effort at 1400 was 3 shots/3 hits just under moa. I like shooting the 308 because it makes you work a little harder, but I don't shoot comps either.

 

[theLBC]

i am curious if anybody has topped out <1000 yards with 175gr FGMM (SMK) but gotten farther with 168gr Superformance ELD Match.
i have a 20" 1:12 barrel (.308) that really likes 168 or 175gr SMK pills, but at <2600fps from the 20" barrel, it might be asking too much for a shooter like me to get out that far.
while not the SMK pill, i am curious to know if the extra velocity would keep get me out there further on target.

 

[littlepod]

I shoot a 308 with 24'' 1-10 twist barrel using loads with 185 jugs or 185 scenars at about 2675 fps out to 1125 and 1400 regularly. The scenars have a considerably lower BC but are super accurate and consistent. I can get 1st and 2nd round hits pretty reliably at 1125. The 1400 plate is difficult because its hard to spot misses with the current backstop and its hard to spot hits on the plate but I still hit it fairly often. I don't shoot groups but my best effort at 1400 was 3 shots/3 hits just under moa. I like shooting the 308 because it makes you work a little harder, but I don't shoot comps either.

For Black Friday sales and stocking up on some ammo sales, is 175 TMK's or 185 jugs the way to go? I hear contrasting opinions on 185 preferring more of a 1/10 twist vs my Tikka's 1/11 but also a lot of people stating that 1/11's do fine. I'll be using factory ammo, so it looks like

Spark Munitions make 175gr loads with Tipped Match Kings
Prime makes 175gr OTM (but it looks like it's just the normal SMK, but my ballistics apps calls out Prime specifically with having higher BC, not sure why)
FGMM 185 Juggernauts.

 

[nn8734]

For Black Friday sales and stocking up on some ammo sales, is 175 TMK's or 185 jugs the way to go?

Prime makes 175gr OTM (but it looks like it's just the normal SMK, but my ballistics apps calls out Prime specifically with having higher BC, not sure why)
FGMM 185 Juggernauts.

If at all possible, I’d buy a box or two of each ammo with 175 TMK and 185 Jugs and shoot them to compare before you make a large purchase....your rifle may clearly prefer one or the other.

Your ballistics app may be using a slightly different drag curve for the Prime ammo’s 175SMK vs the other 175 loads for some reason.

 

[isofahunter]

My 2 cents, unless you are going to have the opportunity to shoot 800+ regularly, keep current rig. I switched from 168 SMK to TMK and there is a difference. Handload is 2685fps at muzzle and it goes subsonic just past 1100 yards, SMK were good to 950ish. If you were shooting beyond 800 all the time 6.5cm would be my recommendation. I shoot both 308 and 6.5cm in equal amounts and my book tells me the 800 yard line is the delineation point between the two when the 308 is running 168 TMK.

 

[wapiti16b]

Start reloading and go to Warners if your twist will allow!

 

[Kbh]

I would try a box of fgmm and berger ammo with 185 jugs. The fgmm shot great in my rifle. If you plan on reloading later the berger uses lapua brass.

 

[Bantam1]

My friends and I have successfully made hits at 1400 yards with 308 rifles shooting Sierra 175, Hornady 178 HPBT and 185 Juggs. We are all pushing the rounds around 2600-2700 fps. The only issues is making good wind calls or enough elevation in the scope to dial or hold with the reticle. I think I needed 20.5 mils or maybe it was 21. I use a steel IPSC target which measures 18" wide by 20" tall with a 6x6" head. Spotting misses can be tough because of the rocky backstop where I shoot. It helped me with shooting my 65CM at longer ranges by learning to shoot with varying winds with my 308 at long ranges. Most of the loads are going trans/subsonic around 1080 yards or less. The 175's are typically trans/subsonic around 980. This varies on the day because the DA can change a lot where I shoot.

My 308 is fun and I enjoy it still for the challenge. The Juggs did the best at that distance being pushed with 2000 MR powder. The Sierra and Hornady did about the same, slightly less drop with the Hornady at 2650 (my load). The Sierra 175 are pushing 2690-2700 (my load and my friends).

Yes it is capable and can be done, but given the other cartridges available with better ballistics, I would suggest that route if your only focus is shooting at extended ranges. The 308 is great to learn on and it helps with learning to shoot in the wind and understanding holds/wind speed.

 

[Action Guy]

If your current rifle in .308 shoots as good as you say, do not rebarrel it until you shoot it out. Buy a 6.5 (particularly if you can get a Tikka for $750) used or new and shoot it out. If you can't afford that before the training you get, then proceed with the good shooting .308 Win. I just think some day you'll regret tearing off a perferctly good .308 barrel. The reasons for buying a new rifle do not need to be great. Some folks buy a new rifle for a different color.

 

[wapiti16b]

I agree with the preceding post reply, I have FN SPR I will never re-barrel until it is time. In the meantime I purchased another FN reciever and had a Bart Marksmen in 7 SAW done up by WTO, Tit for Tat with the 6.5CM with better barrel life and a little more authority down range!. If you buy the used Tikka and when the barrel is done give WTO a look see, Clayton also makes a switch lug if you want to go the multiple barrel route, I am not sure if he does Tikka though.

 

[longgunJR]

6.5s are nice, I shoot 6.5x47L and 6.5Creedmoor which most likely will give up the future since I love the Lapua so much.
With that being said if you have the means and it's something you already WANTED to do, rebarrel to 6.5CM and be done with it. As far as needing it? You'll be just fine with the .308, it'll get the job done. Once you're done with training you may even decide to keep the .308 as your goto short action cartridge and build a 6.5PRC or 7SAUM or 7 Magnum for your longer ranges.

 

[308220]

Keep your 308, and get a 6.5-284 Norma for longer range. Youll get 200ish more yards of range over the CM. Same recoil. You can find a new Savage Long Range Hunter in 6.5-284 Norma for $800-$1k. Or build one.

6.5-284 Norma is badass.

 

[fdkay]

Keep your 308, and get a 6.5-284 Norma for longer range. Youll get 200ish more yards of range over the CM. Same recoil. You can find a new Savage Long Range Hunter in 6.5-284 Norma for $800-$1k. Or build one.

6.5-284 Norma is badass.
[/QUOTE/]
Why would you opt for a rebated rim cartridge when you could just get the 6.5 PRC?

 

[Nik H]

You need a magnum bolt face for 6.5 PRC. Not sure how many manufacturers of short actions offer that. AI does not

 

[spife7980]

Why would you opt for a rebated rim cartridge when you could just get the 6.5 PRC?

Because he currently has a standard .473" bolt face.

The bigger question, and one we ran across earlier this week, is why he would recommend a handloading/prohibitively expensive chambering such as the 6.5x284 when the guy is upfront about factory ammo only? 6.5x284 is 50 bucks a box for a soft point bullet, not even a match bullet and all I can find is hsm ammo. You can buy 1k rounds of that for 2500 or you can but 1.5k rounds of creed with a match bullet and a new barrel for the same price.





I would either
1) Just use 175 fgmm in your current 308, my cousin uses 175 and gets consistent hits at 1k yards but at 1500 they impact the target sideways if they hit at all. Using the 168 he was impacting sideways at 1k yards so the 175 was a definite improvement at longer but still reasonable ranges. If youre really going to be only shooting to 600 then the 168s are fine but when you can get the 175 for the same price of 17 bucks per box I dont know why anyone would chose the 168 aside from less recoil... in which case there are still better options.

2) swap to a 6.5 creed barrel or get a 6.5 creed rifle. It may incur the cost of a barrel but you can get ammo for 80 cents per in american gunner which is fine you could can get it for 1.25 a piece for the match level ammo. But at 1500 it left round marks on the target instead of boat silhouettes like the 308 was.

 

[Nodakplowboy]

AIAT, 20" barrel, 1-10"
S&B PM2 5-25 mil/mil
175 SMK, 2,689 FPS, SD 6.4
Target, 1,049 yards. 11.1 mils elevation. If you have good fundamentals in the prone, it's easy to spot your hits, or misses. The wind will play with but that's half the fun.

 

[fdkay]

Because he currently has a standard .473" bolt face.

Read his post again, He told him to keep the .308 and buy a Savage 6.5-284

 

[spife7980]

Read his post again, He told him to keep the .308 and buy a Savage 6.5-284

Good point which I missed, sorry. In which case I agree whole heatedly, I would suggest 6.5 prc over the 6.5x284 every day in that case.

 

[308220]

I know what he posted. He didnt have the room YET, to reload. So that leaves the option of reloading in the future. Thats how I took it. 6.5CM is roughly $1 per round. 6.5-284 Norma is roughly $2ish per round. 2500ish rounds of barrel life for CM. 1200ish rounds of barrel life for 6.5-284 Norma. Basically the same price to shoot before you wear a barrel out. $2500 in ammo to wear out a CM barrel. $2500 in ammo to wear out a 6.5-284 Norma barrel. So why not go 6.5-284 Norma? More range. Better ballistics. 6.5-284 Norma is the answer. Imo. Its a proven case design. And accurate. Really accurate.

And the guy threw out the option of building a long range gun or buying a factory gun. Hes also not competing in PRS. So that leaves the option open to a long action. He should keep his 308, and shoot the piss out of it using FGMM ammo. And build a proper long range hammer in the meantime.

Sorry that I suggested a 6.5 other than a CM. Ill try to follow the rules of the hide from here on out.

 

[Steel head]

Good point which I missed, sorry. In which case I agree whole heatedly, I would suggest 6.5 prc over the 6.5x284 every day in that case.

It does have factory ammo support.


target orientated factory round for 6.5-284?

never seen it

 

[fdkay]

I know what he posted. He didnt have the room YET, to reload. So that leaves the option of reloading in the future. Thats how I took it. 6.5CM is roughly $1 per round. 6.5-284 Norma is roughly $2ish per round. 2500ish rounds of barrel life for CM. 1200ish rounds of barrel life for 6.5-284 Norma. Basically the same price to shoot before you wear a barrel out. $2500 in ammo to wear out a CM barrel. $2500 in ammo to wear out a 6.5-284 Norma barrel. So why not go 6.5-284 Norma? More range. Better ballistics. 6.5-284 Norma is the answer. Imo. Its a proven case design. And accurate. Really accurate.

And the guy threw out the option of building a long range gun or buying a factory gun. Hes also not competing in PRS. So that leaves the option open to a long action. He should keep his 308, and shoot the piss out of it using FGMM ammo. And build a proper long range hammer in the meantime.

Sorry that I suggested a 6.5 other than a CM. Ill try to follow the rules of the hide from here on out.

What your original post said to keep the tikka and buy a savage in 6.5-284. It said nothing about rebarreling to the new caliber.
The cartridge is a good one, it suffers from the same problems as any other rebated rim cartridge. If he were buying a new rifle, 6.5 prc is a better option, although the lapua brass is FAR superior.
This is the 21st century, there are better options than the 6.5-284, in reality only due to the advent of short action magnum cartridges.

 

[Steel head]

Op
I hope you lob a few 308 bullets at 1400 and report back.
I’ll be shooting my buddy’s 308 today.

Depending on what ammo I might sling a few at about that distance just for fun.

 

[b6graham]

SWITCHLUG – West Texas Ordnance, Inc. | Custom Rifles & Accessories

 

[littlepod]

Op
I hope you lob a few 308 bullets at 1400 and report back.
I’ll be shooting my buddy’s 308 today.

Depending on what ammo I might sling a few at about that distance just for fun.

I will shoot my 308 as much as I can, and will hopefully take Caylen's class in March and bring some 175s or 185s. I'll get a box of each and test @ 600 yards when I get out again.

These Tikka barrels do shoot pretty well out of the factory so as others mentioned, no reason to relief cut or rebarrel it if it's going to be shooting 1/2-2/3 moa out to a 1000.

SWITCHLUG – West Texas Ordnance, Inc. | Custom Rifles & Accessories

I saw this when googling for switch barrel. This looks really promising. I believe you need to gunsmith the action to get that system installed on the Tikka. I think I could send it in there

 

[b6graham]

I will shoot my 308 as much as I can, and will hopefully take Caylen's class in March and bring some 175s or 185s. I'll get a box of each and test @ 600 yards when I get out again.

These Tikka barrels do shoot pretty well out of the factory so as others mentioned, no reason to relief cut or rebarrel it if it's going to be shooting 1/2-2/3 moa out to a 1000.




I saw this when googling for switch barrel. This looks really promising. I believe you need to gunsmith the action to get that system installed on the Tikka. I think I could send it in there

Clayton did my barrels this year. good dude.