Hello. New guy here.

want2Baccurate

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Hello, just wanted to introduce myself. I registered here because there is A LOT of useful information on the site. This is one of the main sites I go to, especially when I need information about reloading.

As this is my first post, and I am still navigating the site and looking for information I wanted to start a discussion about bolt guns.

I will be graduating college before long, and I want to buy myself a custom bolt gun. I have several bolt guns already, and I reload some. I have been wanting something a little more "tactical" than the hunting/varmint rifles I have.

My question is this, would it be too ridiculous to order a custom rifle in .223 rem with a 16" heavy barrel? I want this rifle to be pretty compact. I have a few rifles with 24"+ of barrel, and I think that the .223 may perform just as well if not better with a 16" bbl. versus a 20"+ bbl.

I don't have any delusions of grandeur, and I know I am not a l33t sniper that can shoot 1000yds with a .22
I would like this rifle to be capable of sub-moa at a max yardage near 600-700 yards though. I just cant see myself attempting shooting further than 700 without unleashing my .30-06. This will be a target rifle (but will be deployed as a zombie rig
cool.gif
)

Thoughts? I'm still kind of new to all of this, but I try to shoot my savage bolt guns regularly, and my groups aren't too bad
wink.gif

Also, would the addition of a suppressor change things?
 

Jthoss0837

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Re: Hello. New guy here.

Well. All I can say is welcome. I can't help you with your question because I simply don't know. That's one thing to remember on this site. If you don't know don't act like you do. People will rip you apart.
As for it being ridiculous why? Why do you want a compact rifle?
 

Force_Multiplier

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  • May 22, 2008
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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    a 16" barreled AR will get to 600... so a bolt should do it just fine, the suppressor won't change anything reall except that it will be more comfortable to shoot, so you should see better accuracy on your part
     

    Alderleet

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

    6mmbr is the best source of info around.

    But a 16 should do fine, though i think you can get a tad more velocity out of a 20 inch, which should get you a bit further with a 77/80/90 grainer.

    What twist rate are you considering?

    Also, a suppressor shouldn't change much except POI by a little
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well. All I can say is welcome. I can't help you with your question because I simply don't know. That's one thing to remember on this site. If you don't know don't act like you do. People will rip you apart.
    As for it being ridiculous why? Why do you want a compact rifle? </div></div>
    Based on a lot of the rifles I have seen on this site, longer barrels are the norm to get better accuracy.
    I want a compact rifle because I have a lot of longer barrel rifles, and want to switch things up a bit. I think it will be something unique to take to the range.
    My fear though is that I will be "shooting myself in the foot" by going with a barrel this short. I don't want to spend $3k+ on a rifle and have a poor effective range(due to bleeding off so much velocity at longer ranges).
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DRA-M40A1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you lost us at zombie. </div></div>
    I want this rifle to be fun, whats more fun than zombies?
    grin.gif
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

    6mmbr is the best source of info around.

    But a 16 should do fine, though i think you can get a tad more velocity out of a 20 inch, which should get you a bit further with a 77/80/90 grainer.

    What twist rate are you considering?

    Also, a suppressor shouldn't change much except POI by a little </div></div>
    Thank you for the link. Lots of info there.
    My ar-15 has a twist of 1:7" It can sling the 77gr. matchkings pretty well. I think I might want to go with something like that. I dont think I would want to go as heavy as 90gr. bullets(I don't think a 16" barrel can burn enough powder to sling it 700yds.). Checking your link, it suggests a twist of 1:8"
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    Looking into it some through the 6mmbr website and google, it seems that .223ai may help velocity with shorter barrels. It will increase case capacity some, is easy to form, and helps bullets to buck the wind(due to higher velocity?). The increased case capacity would allow me to use heavier bullets too. I think I would like to stay in the 75-80gr range with this rifle. It seems Hornady, Sierra, and Berger make good bullets in this weight range.
    Anyone know of a magazine system that will allow the use of longer rounds? Or will I have to use a single shot action?
     

    Target In Sight

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    First of all, welcome to the Hide!!

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1951784&page=1

    This will show you some of our member's builds.

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1950569

    This will give you a bit more info from someone that did his readings and came up with his ideas.

    http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=010955838166721108978:qcbx5qqy10o&hl=en

    And this, will give you an easy access to search the Hide
    smile.gif


    Good luck on your new bolt gun!!

    Dyl..
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Target In Sight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First of all, welcome to the Hide!!

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1951784&page=1

    This will show you some of our member's builds.

    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1950569

    This will give you a bit more info from someone that did his readings and came up with his ideas.

    http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=010955838166721108978:qcbx5qqy10o&hl=en

    And this, will give you an easy access to search the Hide
    smile.gif


    Good luck on your new bolt gun!!

    Dyl..
    </div></div>
    Thank you very much for the links.
     

    Scotts556

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: want2Baccurate</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jthoss0837</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well. All I can say is welcome. I can't help you with your question because I simply don't know. That's one thing to remember on this site. If you don't know don't act like you do. People will rip you apart.
    As for it being ridiculous why? Why do you want a compact rifle? </div></div>
    Based on a lot of the rifles I have seen on this site, longer barrels are the norm to get better accuracy.
    I want a compact rifle because I have a lot of longer barrel rifles, and want to switch things up a bit. I think it will be something unique to take to the range.
    My fear though is that I will be "shooting myself in the foot" by going with a barrel this short. I don't want to spend $3k+ on a rifle and have a poor effective range(due to bleeding off so much velocity at longer ranges). </div></div>

    Go 18. Happy medium.

    Scott
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scotts556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Go 18. Happy medium.

    Scott </div></div>

    Do you know of any ballistic tables by chance that will show the differences of 16/18/20" barrels for .223? From what all I have read, .223 rem/.223 AI can achieve full powder burn in 16". Is this correct?

    Also, I think I should change the range requirement for this rifle to a more realistic 500yds. I only know of a couple places locally that I can even reach past 300yds.

    Does anyone happen to know an equation that will allow me to figure the "stopping power" of a load by using its velocity and bullet weight? (ft./lbs. energy maybe?)
     

    Diablo

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    For best velocity with the .223AI, you might need 22".

    To get some idea of the relationship of velocity with barrel length, look at a good manual that includes load data for the .223 handgun barrels (like 14").

    Compare that with the .223 rifle data (barrels 22" or 24") to see the effect with the weight of bullets and the powders you think you may shoot.

    My .223AI has a 22" barrel (1-7), Surgeon BDM to use the AI .223 magazines, Stiller action, Manners T4A stock, and it's like a surgical laser (a WnRoscoe build so you know it's good).

    You can go with a shorter barrel, but less than 18 on a bolt action is something I'd study/think about before doing (there's lots of 16" ARs out there).
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Diablo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For best velocity with the .223AI, you might need 22".

    To get some idea of the relationship of velocity with barrel length, look at a good manual that includes load data for the .223 handgun barrels (like 14").

    Compare that with the .223 rifle data (barrels 22" or 24") to see the effect with the weight of bullets and the powders you think you may shoot.

    My .223AI has a 22" barrel (1-7), Surgeon BDM to use the AI .223 magazines, Stiller action, Manners T4A stock, and it's like a surgical laser (a WnRoscoe build so you know it's good).

    You can go with a shorter barrel, but less than 18 on a bolt action is something I'd study/think about before doing (there's lots of 16" ARs out there). </div></div>

    I looked online for information about .223 pistols. I'm coming up with some mixed results. Pistols using heavier bullets are around 2500fps. I also noticed a velocity drop of about 35fps for each inch removed from a 20+" until you get down to about 17 inches. After that it seems to be more like 50fps lost per inch.
    Here is a problem I noticed. 16inch ARs have increased velocity with heavier bullets, than bolt guns with 16inch barrels. They are closer to 2900+fps. What could cause this?
    On a slightly related note, could anyone tell me what a tight bore barrel does to affect accuracy? I assume it increases the time the bullet spends in the barrel to allow for more powder burn?
     

    Diablo

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    Don't know where you happen to be looking "on line".

    Simply suggest you get a good manual (that is...a hard copy...you know, like a book that's been printed on paper), such as the Nosler 6.

    Then compare their tested/averaged and reported load data for .223 rifle (obtained with the 24" pressure barrel) with their tested/averaged and reported load data for .223 handgun (obtained with the 14" barrel). Be sure to compare loads using the same powder, same bullet weights, and same powder charges.

    As for your speculation about 16" ARs, seems like a waste of time unless they had barrels with the same rate of twist as longer bolt action rifles you were "comparing" them to (unlikely). Were they using the same powder and the same charge weight? The same bullet weights?
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Diablo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't know where you happen to be looking "on line".

    Simply suggest you get a good manual (that is...a hard copy...you know, like a book that's been printed on paper), such as the Nosler 6.

    Then compare their tested/averaged and reported load data for .223 rifle (obtained with the 24" pressure barrel) with their tested/averaged and reported load data for .223 handgun (obtained with the 14" barrel). Be sure to compare loads using the same powder, same bullet weights, and same powder charges.

    As for your speculation about 16" ARs, seems like a waste of time unless they had barrels with the same rate of twist as longer bolt action rifles you were "comparing" them to (unlikely). Were they using the same powder and the same charge weight? The same bullet weights?

    </div></div>
    I have the Hornady #7, Speer #11, and Speer #12 in front of me. I am going to look for the published numbers.
    The AR data I was looking at was mostly for a 1:8 twist. I was mostly looking at charts, so powders and charge weights were different. I guess that probably explains the drastic differences in velocity. There were only a few grains difference in bullet weights.
     

    KTDLS7

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    You asked earlier about downrange energy . . .

    Search the Hide for opinions on the many ballistic programs available for purchase.

    If you want something quick, there are some online calculators (i.e. handloads.com & jbmballistics.com). You input some basic data (bullet type, BC, MV, etc.) and "calculate". A Google search for ballistic (tables, charts, programs) will turn up several.

    Check this:
    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1955807
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ktdls7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You asked earlier about downrange energy . . .

    Search the Hide for opinions on the many ballistic programs available for purchase.

    If you want something quick, there are some online calculators (i.e. handloads.com & jbmballistics.com). You input some basic data (bullet type, BC, MV, etc.) and "calculate". A Google search for ballistic (tables, charts, programs) will turn up several.

    Check this:
    http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1955807 </div></div>
    Thank you very much. That is extremely awesome. I plan get a ballistics program for a PDA as my GF is giving me her PALM Tungsten before long. I can use those for now though

    <span style="text-decoration: line-through">ETA: After looking at JBM calculations for a bit I have a question. Is there a general rule for how effective a bullet is on a target using a "foot pounds of energy" calculation? For example, at 300ft. lbs/energy a bullet becomes ineffective on medium sized game, etc.
    This probably doesn't make much sense.</span>nvm, answered my own question.
     

    Oddball Six

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    Do yourself a favor. Go buy this book.

    Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting by Bryan Litz

    Everyone should Read Chapters 1, 8, and 9.

    Everyone should read the "Summary of the ELements" starting on page 165.

    People interested in external ballistics can read chapters 2-7.

    People who do competitive events should read Chapter 13.

    Everything else in the book (half the book) are reference tables for various bullet's tested performance. Theoretical drag/BC data. Experiential BC data. Estimated "kill zones" against 3 different weights of game for hundreds of different bullets across a multitude of calibers.
     

    want2Baccurate

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    Re: Hello. New guy here.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do yourself a favor. Go buy this book.

    Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting by Bryan Litz

    Everyone should Read Chapters 1, 8, and 9.

    Everyone should read the "Summary of the ELements" starting on page 165.

    People interested in external ballistics can read chapters 2-7.

    People who do competitive events should read Chapter 13.

    Everything else in the book (half the book) are reference tables for various bullet's tested performance. Theoretical drag/BC data. Experiential BC data. Estimated "kill zones" against 3 different weights of game for hundreds of different bullets across a multitude of calibers. </div></div>
    awesome, thanks. Ill try to find the book and pick it up.