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help decide which 22 rifle to choose

futurerider103

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 22, 2011
482
1
40
Springfield Mo
I'm really looking for educated responces and openions please. I'm looking into 4 diff rifles. I'm looking at the savage Mark IIFV, the Savage 64TRSR, Marlin 795 or the rugger 10/22(target with bull barrel or get basic 10/22 with aftermarket bull barrel)
I currently have a savage model 62 with a BSA Sweet 22 My savage is shooting between just smaller than quarter sized groupings at 50yds but 100yrds that goes to 3-4in groupings so I just want better 100yrd groupings.
I'm not looking to get a diff scope or anything just a little friendly competition with friends so I'd like to be a bit more accurate
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

If for just target shooting at 100 yards you may even look into 'fixing' whatever is wrong with your current Savage. Have you tried free-floating the barrel, or playing with a type of pressure point location? How does match ammo run through it? On that note, what ammo do you run through it? Depending on that, may lead to your accuracy problem. Just a thought...

Anyways, to answer your question: You have to ask yourself if you want a bolt gun or a semi. This will be the really big question (for me at least) when trying to narrow down rifle choices.

I don't really have any use for a semi-auto, so bolt gun would be my choice in 90% of practical applications. In all honesty, I may have a single 10-22 someday, but many more bolt guns take higher priority because they're just more practical for me.

If you want a semi-auto though, your best bet will be the 10-22. There are so many aftermarket parts available for this model that you could reconfigure it a hundred times over and have a different rifle each time... It's not my thing, but hey, if it works for you, then it's all good!

Now, I have zero experience with Savage's semi-auto's so I really cannot comment on them. BUT, there is a reason 10-22's are king of the semi-auto rimfire crowd; they're cheap and easily upgradeable.

The Marlin 795 is also a semi, that I have no experience wit, so I can't comment on it either. But it looks alot like the 64 from Savage...

And finally, the Savage MkII FV would easily be my rifle of choice out of the lineup you gave. They're pretty inexpensive, have a heavy barrel, and that cruddy plastic stock. The stock is the rifle's only real downfall, as I am of the school of thought where tupperware stocks shouldn't even be sold on rifles. An inexpensive model of your choosing from Boyd's or Richard's Microfit will do you nicely though. Accuracy in these is usually pretty great though, and since you noted that was your main concern with the rifle, I think this is your best option. You might even look into a BV, it's not much more than the 64TRSR:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/975/products_id/24894

Or even a CZ if you can find one on the cheap. Hope this helps.


-Dylan
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

I have used ammo all over the spectrum(cci mini mags ans blazers, Winchester high velocity, federal bulk pack, ext..) I have never owned a bolt action 22 and from what I've read they are generally more accurate than semi auto so I was thinking that. I don't know how to adjust the pressure point or free float the barrel since I've never modified a gun before just maintenance.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

You don't need a new rifle for what you are doing. You state emphatically that you do not want to change scopes, why not? How do you know quality of glass is not your problem? With what you are describing either you have an ammo problem or an optics problem, which means you may buy a new rifle of our(SH) choosing and still have the same problem. It sounds to me like you are shooting high velocity rounds. That would account for the good groups at 50yds suddenly turning to crap at 100yds.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

It does sound like you need to try a box of match ammo. Anything faster than 1080fps is going to kill your accuracy at 100yd.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: futurerider103</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used ammo all over the spectrum(cci mini mags ans blazers, Winchester high velocity, federal bulk pack, ext..) I have never owned a bolt action 22 and from what I've read they are generally more accurate than semi auto so I was thinking that. I don't know how to adjust the pressure point or free float the barrel since I've never modified a gun before just maintenance.</div></div>
Okay, I'll start with free floating. Usually, when a rifle comes from the factory, the barrel channel is touching the barrel at some point down the line, if not all the way down. This causes inconsistencies and consistency is the key to accuracy. By floating your barrel, your groups may shrink quite a bit.

The mention of pressure points is an idea usually used with 10-22's as far as i've seen so far. The idea is to build a high point in the barrel channel (under the barrel, part of the stock) that pushes into the barrel, applying pressure into one area. Some people have phenominal success with this methid, howver most don't screw with it, because it has a tendency to fail depending on many small factors. Stock swelling can do it, bad grip can do it, and many other things too.

Using good quality ammo is key to accuracy too. You don't necessairily have to buy high dollar ammo to get respectable groups, however it does make your chances much better. You can eliminate alot of group openers by sorting your ammo, but it's very tedious and annoying after a while. And it may not even pay off for you, that depends entirely on the rifle/ammo combo.

As far as bolt being more accurate than semi, it's a VERY controvercial topic and I really hope tat can of worms doesn't get opened here in your thread... BUT, I will say that for the 'lower end' models that you're looking at, generally speaking of course, bolt actions will be more accurate than semi's. You typically have to spend quite a pretty penny on a 10-22 to make it shoot on par with a MkII that costs half as much and still shoots better. Some guys have $1000+ 10-22's that will say how much fun it is to upgrade them and show reports of fantastic accuracy from them. Some guys get lucky and have shooters straight out of the box. It's iffy at best, so I would prefer not to screw with them. But you may not be like me, if you like to tinker, then by all means go ahead. I am just stating my opinions
smile.gif


As far as ammo goes, try Wolf MT, you may like what it does. If the rifle cycles properly or not, is a whole 'nuther story. Sometimes the lube on the match bullets gums up the semi-auto receivers and causes failures, but with proper maintanence, this might not be a problem for you. CCI Green Tags shoot decent for several people too. f you haven't already, you should look into those too. There's so many choices out there, but I can't think of many that would be ideal for an autoloader. Maybe try Federal Automatch? They're not subsonics, but a few people have had outstanding results with it. I didn't, but I was comparing to subsonics
crazy.gif
(which you need to try if you haven't, you wil lprobably see better results so long as the rifle functions reliably still, otherwise you might as well get a bolt action and reap the benefits of not having to worry about feeding
wink.gif
)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't need a new rifle for what you are doing. You state emphatically that you do not want to change scopes, why not? How do you know quality of glass is not your problem? With what you are describing either you have an ammo problem or an optics problem, which means you may buy a new rifle of our(SH) choosing and still have the same problem. It sounds to me like you are shooting high velocity rounds. That would account for the good groups at 50yds suddenly turning to crap at 100yds.</div></div>
I agree with armorpl8chikn 100% You should make sure that your scope isn't the root of your problems. It happens often, that people assume that their scope is sound and then one day they find out it was the problem all along. Scopes do fail, and this causes erratic grouping usually. Pull the scope, and mount up another one of proven reliability just to make sure it's not the issue. If it is, then obviously it needs to be replaced.

However if this isn't the issue, then definitely look into the ammo because it's a big grey zone. Lots wil perform just 'ok', some will be amazing, almost unbelievable, and others will just downright suck balls. Finding the right kind has been a majority of the fun for me; I feel it's like tweaking loads for a centerfire.

I feel like I missed something, but that's normal for me. Hope this helps,
-Dylan
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It does sound like you need to try a box of match ammo. Anything faster than 1080fps is going to kill your accuracy at 100yd. </div></div>there was a guy that had a tool to measure bullet speed and they were at 1380fps. Why does that speed make a diff
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

When a bullet leaves the muzzle at supersonic speeds, it usually passes below supersonic before making it to 100 yards. This is called going transonic, and destabilizes the bullet's flight path. Causing the bullet to impact outside of its intended area of impact. So say you have a 1MOA capable rifle, and at 50 yards are shooting .5" groups. Then you move to 100 yards and shoot a 3MOA group with supersonic ammo. This is partially due to the bullet going transonic. It can be due to other things like wind speeds, shooter's error, and other crap.

However, when you use subsonic ammo that leaves the barrel without breaking the sound barrier, you don't have to worry about the transonic zone at all. This means your bullet won't destabilize in mid flight on its way to your target at the 100 yard line. This exact phenomina is the biggest reason that all target ammo is subsonic.

It's strange to think about, because in centerfire rifles, you will want the most velocity you can get to keep the bullet supersonic as long as possible to avoid that transonic zone.

By the way, that tool is called a chronograph. And as stated, at 1380 FPS your ammo is not subsonic, it's supersonic. Which is probably your problem with accuracy at 100. Try some subsonic offerings and i'm almost positive you'll see an improvement over what you're currently using. On a side note, subsonics will also be much quieter in comparison to supersonics. There won't be a sharp crack that you're used to hearing with supersonic ammo.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

If I may mention another semiauto 22 option...if you can find a TC R-55 I'd take a long look. I have a sporter model that is accurate as a trick 10/22 right out of the box. I can make a ragged hole at 50yds with optics, another one at 25yds with irons, and put 5 rounds onto a 50cent piece at 100. Great rifles that I think are discontinued, but worth the effort to find.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

Ideally, yes, you would have the rifle 100% supported by a very stable platform and trigger manipulation done by a hydraulic (or similar) assist so you don't add any torque into the system by using your own finger. That is the 'best' way to eliminate shooter error... However, going to such lengths isn't always required. You can accomplish much the same by just using a sturdy front rest, a rear rest, and a steady hand. Sand bags do just fine if you have them available to you.

Although none of this is going to get you anywhere if you don't use good ammo. Strapping the rifle down and shooting with crap ammo will just show you exactly what that particular ammo will do. When you use match ammo, picked specifically for that rifle, you will have your best test of accuracy possible. My rifle for instance, shoots .2-.3" at 50 yards with Eley Blue or Black box, .4-.6" with Wolf MT, and .7+ with everything else i've tested with just a bi-pod, no rear rest, and me behind the trigger. With a rear rest (the most i'm willing to pridefully use to support any rifle) I get slightly better and more uniform results from because it takes a little bit of my 'wobble' out of the equation. So I know that i'm close to being able to shoot on par with my rifle, close enough for ammo testing without all the expensive rests and equipment at least.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

Keep in mind they're at 50 yards, not 100. I'm running a Savage MkII-TR, EGW 20MOA base, Burris XTR rings, and an SWFA SS 10x scope to top it off. Sitting on a Harris 6-9" bi-pod.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

FR103 there's been some great advice given here. I've got a question for you though... One inch groups at 50 yards isn't incredible, but not bad either. How are you shooting to achieve them? Ie shooting off a bipod, from a rest, prone...
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: futurerider103</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about at 100yds</div></div>
I'm not a consistent shot by any means, so at 100 yards, my group may measure in at 3/4" to anywhere near 2" depending on ammo. It's typically double the 50 yard diameter, however whenever wind is mixed into the scenario, the groups go up in size. I'm still learning my wind reading skills... It's a difficult thing to be proficient at.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

Rifle: I have owned a couple of those. Ruger 10/22 and Savage MK II TR. I currently own a Marlin Model 60, not sure how that relates to a 795, except that the 795 has a removable mag, and the 60 has a tube fed.

What I don't remember hearing, other than simply doing better at 100, is the main purpose of the rifle. So, I can give you my experience based solely on what I do. I target shoot, hunt small critters, and dispatch skunks, raccoons and dogs when they get in my chickens. Yes, I shoot the dogs that get into my chickens. It's against the law, and I am full within my right (that should stop a lot of, " Dear GOD, you shoot POODLES?!?!?!?!).

So, that said, raccoons shot in semi darkness don't ALWAYS go down in one shot, sometimes I need a quick follow up. My vote goes for SEMIAUTO for this scenario. Dogs are the same, although I try not to take a wounding shot at a very hungry and potentially PISSY rotweiller.

Skunks, same. Small vermin (Squeaks, rock chucks, marmots, grouse, other targets of opportunity) all same. Semiautomatic.

Now, paper punching and ONLY PAPER PUNCHING for score, against the best of the best, can be won most easily with a bolt rifle. A bolt gun is simply more accurate, and here my vote goes to the Savage. They are far more accurate than their price tag eludes to.

So, for 98% of what I do, I use a semiautomatic. That is what I based my collection on. I just sold my Savage MKII TR to a gentleman on this board, and he should be taking ownership of it in the next day or two. (CA laws are weird)

Also, don't rule out CZ and Remington rifles (not 40X, thems are expensive). Excellent rifles. Really and truly.

So, for my 98% rifle, I upgraded my 10/22 with a KIDD barrel, Boyds Tacticool stock, a little two-part epoxy and achieved this:
2011-08-22_23-06-54_644.jpg


I am into the rifle (after upgrades in barrel, stock, and scope mount ONLY) under $550. Shoots dang good too.

Now, onto the scope. I understand you wanting to keep your scope, but I will throw this out there too (as a few others have), glass makes a difference. I have $275 in my scope. It is a Sightron SII 4-16. I have had BSA and a few other "inexpensive" models, and they give you what you pay for. They are not consistent, repeatable, and the quality is lacking on the reticle.

I would recommend at the very least borrowing another scope just to see if the glass is holding you back. You can pick up some dang good scopes for under $400, heck, even under $300. Super Sniper and Vortex Viper (not PST) come to mind. If you borrow one, you are out nothing.

If you already have a Savage, I would really like to see some other glass on it with some good match ammo. Try Wolf Extra Match. Shot superb in my Savage, producing .2" groups at 50 yards, under .55" at 100 yards (wind permitting).

If I had to go out and start shooting my grub (not including big game, but would not rule out a very close shot), I would grab my 10/22 or my Marlin 60. Like I said, 98% these are more than enough rifle. If all I ever did was punch paper at 50 Yards hoping for smaller and smaller groups, Savage would still be in my herd.

(After reading my post, 2 things stick out that you <span style="font-style: italic">should</span> look into. Ammo and glass. The rifle should do the job for you. You are out nothing with the purchase of ammo and borrowing a good scope. My humble opinion.)
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Situation Normal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FR103 there's been some great advice given here. I've got a question for you though... One inch groups at 50 yards isn't incredible, but not bad either. How are you shooting to achieve them? Ie shooting off a bipod, from a rest, prone... </div></div>
I'm shooting off my range bag with my stock on the back and my hand under that. The butt of the gun is on my sholder and i'm sitting at a bench. Like i said my groups are sub quarter size actually closer to dime size from 50yds.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

You might try some sub-sonic ammo.

If yo still feel the need for another rifle, give some serious thought into the CZ452, if you can find one....
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

I have a Savage FV, yes the factory stock is a flexy POS. That said, when I get it right, it'll shoot 1/2 inch groups at 50 and 1-2 inches at 100( off a bipod and rear bag). I can jump soda cans at 150, and am working out to 200. All this with a suck optic( wally world Centerpoint 4-16x40)usually shot at 10x. AMMO is the key, bulk ammo is ok for plinking out to 100, but if you really want accuracy, shoot subs. Mine loves Wolf MT. They all like what they like.
But to answer your ? I'd go with the Savage FV or work out the issue w/ your current rifle.
Eric
Eric
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

so today i took my gun apart and the barrel is indeed free floating and is not touching anything. So I'm thinking about bedding it before i go to the range this weekend so i'm going to look at some how to's then start. I'll report back sat night with results and pics of results
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

it seems,here and at RF central,folks are having same problem as me. 25yd groups are so good they can't be used to compare ammo types. 50 yards often ok. but,1" @50 is 2 moa. 1/2 would be min wanted. at 100 groups are so bad can't evaluate ammo. i too am looking for max 100yd performance without spending insane $ on a rig. i want to use 100yd RF as practice for LR centerfire.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terror!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When a bullet leaves the muzzle at supersonic speeds, it usually passes below supersonic before making it to 100 yards. This is called going transonic, and destabilizes the bullet's flight path. Causing the bullet to impact outside of its intended area of impact. So say you have a 1MOA capable rifle, and at 50 yards are shooting .5" groups. Then you move to 100 yards and shoot a 3MOA group with supersonic ammo. This is partially due to the bullet going transonic. It can be due to other things like wind speeds, shooter's error, and other crap.

However, when you use subsonic ammo that leaves the barrel without breaking the sound barrier, you don't have to worry about the transonic zone at all. This means your bullet won't destabilize in mid flight on its way to your target at the 100 yard line. This exact phenomina is the biggest reason that all target ammo is subsonic. </div></div>

Many jet bombers were specifically designed to fly just below the speed of sound so that any fighter trying to overtake them would have to fly through the sound barrier and loose stability. The same thing applies to bullets.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

I have no idea what you were trying to with this bedding job. If the barrel was free floated from the factory, it was most likely intended to be that way. The vast majority of precision rifles have the barrels free floated and the actions, not the barrels bedded. Is this your Savage 62? I see you ordered a Mark II BTV. Look at this thread on bedding before you make any modifications to your new gun. It shows the proper way to bed a rifle http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1167022#Post1167022.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

can you get these match grade ammo's in hollow points?
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

MOst match grade ammo is dimpled and suitable for hunting small game.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

Not sure if this helps I have a CZ 452 scout with simmons 4-32 trail blazer with weaver mounts im shooting .25" groups at 100 yrds with federal ammo with it the scope may not be considered to be the top of the line but a .25" group at 100yrds is pretty good as far as im concerned. Hope this helped.
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

I tend to like the Savage products myself. The thing I don't like about the Marlins is the Micro-Groove rifling. I have noticed some here posting about the CZ rifles, and most every one I have had any time to shoot has done a wonderful job in the accuracy department. They are pricey, but worth every bit of their cost.
smile.gif
 
Re: help decide which 22 rifle to choose

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terror!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When a bullet leaves the muzzle at supersonic speeds, it usually passes below supersonic before making it to 100 yards. This is called going transonic, and destabilizes the bullet's flight path. Causing the bullet to impact outside of its intended area of impact. So say you have a 1MOA capable rifle, and at 50 yards are shooting .5" groups. Then you move to 100 yards and shoot a 3MOA group with supersonic ammo. This is partially due to the bullet going transonic. It can be due to other things like wind speeds, shooter's error, and other crap.

However, when you use subsonic ammo that leaves the barrel without breaking the sound barrier, you don't have to worry about the transonic zone at all. This means your bullet won't destabilize in mid flight on its way to your target at the 100 yard line. This exact phenomina is the biggest reason that all target ammo is subsonic.

It's strange to think about, because in centerfire rifles, you will want the most velocity you can get to keep the bullet supersonic as long as possible to avoid that transonic zone.

By the way, that tool is called a chronograph. And as stated, at 1380 FPS your ammo is not subsonic, it's supersonic. Which is probably your problem with accuracy at 100. Try some subsonic offerings and i'm almost positive you'll see an improvement over what you're currently using. On a side note, subsonics will also be much quieter in comparison to supersonics. There won't be a sharp crack that you're used to hearing with supersonic ammo. </div></div>

Everything he said, +1

My newest favorite thing to do is play around with the Miller Stability Factor calculator for picking .22LR rounds to shoot at 100 yards.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

I used Eley Target Rifle (yellow Remmy/Eley stuff) for these targets at 100 yards out of my CZ 452V:

Pt2Image1of2.jpg


When I can produce consistent groups like target 3 on the far left, I will be content with myself.