Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

[HispanicPanic]

So i picked up a mosin nagant (my first gun)and i enjoy it very much, but the stock provides horrible consistency. Out of 15 rounds at 100yd, i'll have about 2 separate clusters 3 in apart with 3 rounds touching, and the rest will be random flyers up to 5 in away. Needless to say i need something better than this.

I really want to practice some long distance marksmanship but i don't want to spend an arm and a leg on ammo & a gun.

Goal: .5-1 MOA with match ammo. 1.5-2 MOA with surplus

Budget: ~$800

Ammo: The only ammo i'd like to consider is 7.62x54r and 5.45x39. Reason being, ammo can be had from 10 to 20 cents a round for both calibers. Contrary to popular belief, the quality i've seen from russian surplus exceeds that of bottom of the barrel .308. In fact, many ak-74's i've seen stock will group 1moa or better out of the box on surplus. Reviews from folks who sort 54r ammo by rim thickness & weight have reported 1-1.5 MOA through their mosins. I'll be using surplus for practice & of course match grade when i compete.

Guns #1: I've been toying with 3 different routes. Take my mosin & build it. 27x1.2 inch .308 barrel blank from green mountain can be had for $100. I'd need to get it chambered, threaded, & grooves opened up to .3105. How much does the labor cost for this?? I have no idea. Awesome stocks can be had for less than 200. I can get the bolt modded for aprox $50 to have the handle right at the trigger. And all i really need is a dremmel polish for the trigger. So far, thats $350 in parts for this rifle.

Gun #2: Buy a PSL. I'll be stuck shooting 150gr ammo, and if i want MOA all day i'd need to fire no more than 3 rounds every 5 minutes. Anything more than this and my shots will string badly. The only fix for this is a straightjacket barrel sleeve, which i believe is another $400. Not sure if this route will make me happy in the end. Biggest turn off is the pencil thin barrel providing the heat problems. PSL is aprox $700

Gun #3: AK-74. From the people i have talked to so far, this route will by far get me the best out of the box accuracy. My distance with this round will be limited to 500yds MAXIMUM, but below that i should be thoroughly satisfied. In addition, its an assault rifle so it could fill two roles (assault & DMR) very well. I always had thoughts of modifying a 74 into a bullpup, so that would also be fun. AK-74 is aprox $500.

Possible gun #4: Due to the cost of a savage, i've been considering one in 7.62x39 and having it rechambered in 7.62x54r. the 39 has the same bullet diameter, so no regrooving neccesary. Then again with a .308 version, even if i buy mediocre .308 ammo at 4x the cost of 54r, i'm guaranteed solid accuracy from a 400 dollar gun. No idea how much it costs to rechamber a savage, but the low cost and out of the box capabilities of a savage in .308 is very appealing at this point, even though .308 isn't my first choice in ammo

Your thoughts?

 

[MCV]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

Since you already have a mosin you could go to Rock Solid and get the scope mount,bolt handle, bedding pillars. Go with a lowell design stock or richards micro-fit and pillar bed and acraglass it. I have had good success with a cut down 22inch barrel with a good target crown. Triggers are readily available also, the timney trigger is awesome but $$$$$ for a 100$ gun.Teludyne has a straight jacket for a mosin also but is expensive ( 350$ last time I checked) but worth it to have the muzzle brake.

Then you could also look at the Finn M39 mosin which has a much better barrel to begin with...I haven't seen one that didnt shoot great with surplus ammo.

My psl is capable of 1.5inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards but there is a long pause between rounds which gets annoying because the barrel heat.

I have owned and still own some Savages and Tikka's and found I had north of 1000$ in them quickly with stocks, and scope bases, etc. But they could all shoot better then I ever hoped to.

You have to decide if you are going to go all in and squeeze every millimeter of accuracy out of the rifle and stay in the sport for a long time, then I would look past the mosin to something else maybe even something in .223.Or watch gunbroker or the classifieds for a complete rig for 800$. Mosins are a very capable rifle but even 7.62x54r ammo is starting to creep up in price.

 

[2guard]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

I built 7.62x39 on a long action savage with a mcgowen barrel that was awesome. I had around 850, without glass. Long action 110s can be bought cheap, especially in 30-06. had to have the bolt head opened up by SharpShooterSupply, which I got lucky and it only took 2 weeks to have it done and cost $45 plus shipping. They open the bolt head and add a longer extractor.

I shot Lapua 7.62x39 which is around $40 per 50 at grafs and was getting .5 to .75, and leaves excellent brass to reload. I sold the rifle to another gentleman who worked up a load for it and had better success than I did. Here's some messages from him after he bought it:

"I finally got it together and shot it for the first time.Boy was I pissed.That crummy lapua only shot 2 back to back .350 groups at 100 yds(measured). This thing even made my 2008 nationals winner buddy walk around and went and measured the target twice.He was blown away and so was I. Thank you for such a decent deal.I also tried that russian crap and it shot about a half inch. I am thrilled."

"my buddy who won the nationals in 2008 shot the first group and says to me,it looks like a 3/4" group to me.I insisted we walk down and measure it,it was .350 exactly.He couldnt believe it.I tried some other cheaper crap for the **** of it and it was way under an inch."

"I took a day off of hunting and shot the little monster at 200 yards.The load is 29 grains h-322 with a sierra 125 grain bullet and the group size isssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss:.295 thou at 200 yards.I was jumping up and down Like I won the lottery.The darn thing shoots as good as my buddys 30 br does for 5 times the price."

So, here's what I would do if you really want a bolt gun in 7.62x39: sell the mosin and build a savage. Email mcgowen and tell them you need a 7.62x39, the groove is .310 and is tighter than moset offer (.311) and probably adds to the accuracy of the barrel I received from them. Not sure what the wait time is right now, probably 6-8 weeks. Around $300 shipped for a finished barrel ready to screw on.
That should give you plenty of time to source the other parts (action or donor 110) and have SSS do the bolt head conversion. I would definitely get a SSS recoil lug to go on when you swap the barrel. The older 110 la usually has the 3 screw trigger which you can work down to around 3-3.5 lbs which should be good enough for this type of rifle. You can always buy a rifle basix trigger later if you decide you need one. There are a few aftermarket stocks (b&c duramax or choate tactical on the cheap end) and bases should be plentiful for the flat-back 110 actions.
Brownells has the headspace gauges at around $50, and you can sell them afterward. Try to find someone near you that has swapped barrels on a savage before. They will probably let you borrow the action wrench and barrel nut wrench for your swap. You can also buy them at various places. Swap is easy and straight-forward, I've done them multiple times now and can do a swap in about 15-20 minutes. Just check the extraction on the 7.62x39, mine was a little finicky until I found the perfect headspace.

Buy reloading equipment and learn to reload for the round. Not much (if any) match 7.62x39 ammo out there. Trust me on this one, the Lapua was the closest I found. Don't mess with the steel cased stuff, accuracy is not great and when you are finished shooting, you just have steel cases, no brass for reloading.

Now, with all of this said, I would instead buy a stevens or savage in 223 or 308 and shoot. Spend the money you had planned on upgrading the others on glass and ammo. Down the road you are going to want something more and upgrading on this project will probably be wasted money. trigger time and good ammo will do you more good in a better caliber (223 or 308). Pick up a heavy barrel 223 or 308 savage, howa, or whatever, some decent glass (bushnell 10x40 or super sniper), and some good ammo and spend more time shooting.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

Why would you build a 7.62x39 on a long action.
It is a short action caliber (actually shorter than that)

 

[2guard]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

mine was built on an older savage 223 long action, and the magazine box was set up for shorter catridges. the 223 head is actually better for the ppc conversion, but SSS will convert a standard 473 with a head change. Mine would feed fine with the la mag set up for the 223, but a single shot would work also.

I mentioned the long action because they are plentiful and cheap (which was the concern of the original poster). You could build it on a short action, but they bring a lot more than the long action (mainly older 30-06) savages.

BTW, I also shoot a 6.5 creedmoor on a long action, because I wanted a 6.5cm and had a nice stainless long action sitting around from a 116 30-06 I bought cheap. Functions fine, looks fine, and shoots under .5" @ 100 with hornady match 120 and 140gr.

If he wants a cheap alternative to the mosin ("I really want to practice some long distance marksmanship but i don't want to spend an arm and a leg on ammo & a gun. "), that is what I provided him. A lot of the savage guys build a lot of short action calibers on long actions because they bought the la cheap. No real advantage or disadvantage (you can site the SA is stiffer, but I dont think it will come into play at this level), until you go to a detachable mag setup. If hes shooting mainly from a bench or prone, loading a single round is probably not a big deal, and actually may be beneficial to slow a new shooter down. I see a lot of guys at my range trying to send rounds as quick as possible and they lose a bunch of fundamentals doing so. bad habits increase with bad practice.

I still think he would benefit more from buying a 223 or 308 than trying to build one of the russian calibers because of cheap ammo. Cheap ammo is inconsistent and will not let a shooter know what he or the gun is capable of on a regular basis. His decision though, just providing my experience with the caliber he mentioned.

 

[Subxero]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter



normally i not a sentence structure or grammar kill but i am so confused with this "paragraph" no clue what is going on here?

"I finally got it together and shot it for the first time.Boy was I pissed.That crummy lapua only shot 2 back to back .350 groups at 100 yds(measured). This thing even made my 2008 nationals winner buddy walk around and went and measured the target twice.He was blown away and so was I. Thank you for such a decent deal.I also tried that russian crap and it shot about a half inch. I am thrilled."

 

[HispanicPanic]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

is it possible to open up the bolt head to fit a 7.62x54r?

 

[HispanicPanic]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2guard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I built 7.62x39 on a long action savage with a mcgowen barrel that was awesome. I had around 850, without glass. Long action 110s can be bought cheap, especially in 30-06. had to have the bolt head opened up by SharpShooterSupply, which I got lucky and it only took 2 weeks to have it done and cost $45 plus shipping. They open the bolt head and add a longer extractor.

I shot Lapua 7.62x39 which is around $40 per 50 at grafs and was getting .5 to .75, and leaves excellent brass to reload. I sold the rifle to another gentleman who worked up a load for it and had better success than I did. Here's some messages from him after he bought it:

"I finally got it together and shot it for the first time.Boy was I pissed.That crummy lapua only shot 2 back to back .350 groups at 100 yds(measured). This thing even made my 2008 nationals winner buddy walk around and went and measured the target twice.He was blown away and so was I. Thank you for such a decent deal.I also tried that russian crap and it shot about a half inch. I am thrilled."

"my buddy who won the nationals in 2008 shot the first group and says to me,it looks like a 3/4" group to me.I insisted we walk down and measure it,it was .350 exactly.He couldnt believe it.I tried some other cheaper crap for the **** of it and it was way under an inch."

"I took a day off of hunting and shot the little monster at 200 yards.The load is 29 grains h-322 with a sierra 125 grain bullet and the group size isssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss:.295 thou at 200 yards.I was jumping up and down Like I won the lottery.The darn thing shoots as good as my buddys 30 br does for 5 times the price."

So, here's what I would do if you really want a bolt gun in 7.62x39: sell the mosin and build a savage. Email mcgowen and tell them you need a 7.62x39, the groove is .310 and is tighter than moset offer (.311) and probably adds to the accuracy of the barrel I received from them. Not sure what the wait time is right now, probably 6-8 weeks. Around $300 shipped for a finished barrel ready to screw on.
That should give you plenty of time to source the other parts (action or donor 110) and have SSS do the bolt head conversion. I would definitely get a SSS recoil lug to go on when you swap the barrel. The older 110 la usually has the 3 screw trigger which you can work down to around 3-3.5 lbs which should be good enough for this type of rifle. You can always buy a rifle basix trigger later if you decide you need one. There are a few aftermarket stocks (b&c duramax or choate tactical on the cheap end) and bases should be plentiful for the flat-back 110 actions.
Brownells has the headspace gauges at around $50, and you can sell them afterward. Try to find someone near you that has swapped barrels on a savage before. They will probably let you borrow the action wrench and barrel nut wrench for your swap. You can also buy them at various places. Swap is easy and straight-forward, I've done them multiple times now and can do a swap in about 15-20 minutes. Just check the extraction on the 7.62x39, mine was a little finicky until I found the perfect headspace.

Buy reloading equipment and learn to reload for the round. Not much (if any) match 7.62x39 ammo out there. Trust me on this one, the Lapua was the closest I found. Don't mess with the steel cased stuff, accuracy is not great and when you are finished shooting, you just have steel cases, no brass for reloading.

Now, with all of this said, I would instead buy a stevens or savage in 223 or 308 and shoot. Spend the money you had planned on upgrading the others on glass and ammo. Down the road you are going to want something more and upgrading on this project will probably be wasted money. trigger time and good ammo will do you more good in a better caliber (223 or 308). Pick up a heavy barrel 223 or 308 savage, howa, or whatever, some decent glass (bushnell 10x40 or super sniper), and some good ammo and spend more time shooting. </div></div>

Can you give some detail on the barrel? Like exactly bore & groove diameter?? If i were to build a mosin, i'd like to have a 26-28 in barrel with .3105 groove dia and .30 nominal. Mcgowan has their 7.62 barrels at .302 nominal and .311 groove. I'm not sure at all which would be best for accuracy

 

[2guard]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

take a look at this thread:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/stevens-200-rechambered-7-62x54-90507/

 

[MCV]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

Here is a mosin build my dad is thinking of putting together:
Teludyne straight jacket....20inch barrel........349$+shipping
Rock solid mount and bolt body w/handle combo....160$+shipping
Rock solid allen head screws.....................12$ +shipping
Rock solid bedding pillars.......................10$ +shipping
Henderson/Lowell design stock....................180$+shipping

total....711$ we figure about another 80-90$ for shipping/ etc.

After he fired my Mosin HB my dad started researching for this build.My dad is considering the straight jacket because of the reduced weight compared to a solid heavy barrel plus it is already threaded and has a brake.

 

[2guard]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

My 7.62x39 mcgowen barrel was 18", 1/10 twist, .310 6 groove. savage varmint contour, stainless with recessed crown. you can call or email dan wynne at mcgowen and just tell him you are wanting a 7.62x39 barrel, they do it a little different than the standard 30 cal barrel. I dont think you will need all of that barrel length (26-28") on the 7.62x39, might consider something shorter.
Mcgowen used to have a first time buyers discount also, dont know if they still do, but it wouldnt hurt to ask.

 

[HispanicPanic]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

well, i won't be shooting x39, i'll be shooting x54r. Same bullet diameter though.

 

[2guard]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

are you sold on the 7.62x54 completely? I know ammo is cheap, but how good is that cheap ammo? Federal Gold Medal Match is 19.99 box/20 at palmetto in 308 and you could shoot black hills reman 223 69gr smk-hpbt for around $40 per 50rnds (.80 or less a round). I'm pretty sure you would get better results from those than the 7.62x54 ammo available. Prvi makes x54 match, but right at the same price as FGMM 308, and I will bet the Prvi quality/consistency is not as good.

Why not spend $500 on a used factory heavy barrel 308 or 223? there is a howa 1500 308 on gunbroker right now for $390 (not mine, no affiliation at all) and almost always there's a savage 308 for under 500. Just a better platform to build on later.

and if you really want to shoot a lot and learn, buy a 22lr and shoot it a lot.

oh, and my low budget 308 build: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...266#Post2363266

 

[HispanicPanic]

Re: Help deciding on a capable budget shooter

i'm assuming the nominal bore was also .302 as he has listed? And was it his "match" labeled barrel?

I'm relatively set on 7.62x54r as i wanted to be able to reach out to 800-1000 yds. I already have a .22 that i practice with. I've mastered it at 50 yds from a bench position. I get groups the size of a quarter with cci mini mags. Now i need to take it to 100 & 200 yds but was waiting to get a hold of some wolf .22 match before i do.