Help identify pressure signs. 6.5 Creedmoor with H4350 and 147 grain ELDM

[Mike Casselton]

Before diving into answering anything from your post above, I'll ask one multi part question.

Did you buy an actual reloading manual?
Did you read it?
How many times did you read it?
Did you learn anything from it?

If the answer to the first line was no, then I'm done here.

 

[brianf]

Before diving into answering anything from your post above, I'll ask one multi part question.

Did you buy an actual reloading manual?
Did you read it?
How many times did you read it?
Did you learn anything from it?

If the answer to the first line was no, then I'm done here.

Adios lol

 

[Mike Casselton]

Adios lol

Yeah, I already knew the answer to the question(s) before I asked.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Before diving into answering anything from your post above, I'll ask one multi part question.

Did you buy an actual reloading manual?
Did you read it?
How many times did you read it?
Did you learn anything from it?

If the answer to the first line was no, then I'm done here.

Reading more than six paragraphs at a time is forced labor from the colonialist patriarchy.

 

[918v]

Before diving into answering anything from your post above, I'll ask one multi part question.

Did you buy an actual reloading manual?
Did you read it?
How many times did you read it?
Did you learn anything from it?

If the answer to the first line was no, then I'm done here.

What makes you think that a manual would help?

 

[918v]

Mike - seems you have experience shooting "benchrest". Everyone in this forum seems to look upto benchrest shooting for precision/accuracy. Hence seeking your input on this interesting 'experience'. I cut down my 26Inch 6.5c barrell (heavy palma) to 18 inch and found that 1) the ladder test is way way flatter for shorter barrell (similar charge weights from 34 to 43.4 grain with 0.4 increment). 2) my groups have become way tighter for similar charge weights and seating depths.

I am trying to understand what could cause this? should I expect slightly more precision from a shorter barrell? or I have messed something up in testing (remote possibility as I tried being meticulous) or is it something else ...?

In your case it’s coincidental.

 

[Mike Casselton]

What makes you think that a manual would help?

Misplaced hope?

 

[harry_x1]

In your case it’s coincidental.

why do you say that? Please add more color on what you mean by conincident improving precision of this barrell.

 

[harry_x1]

Barrels vibrate. A shorter barrel is stiffer (assuming the same barrel profile) and the magnitude of the vibrations is smaller so the muzzle moves less. Since the scope is not dependent on sight radius this reduction movement of the muzzle usually results in smaller drops. Cutting the barrel can also move the center of gravity that may help with recoil control. Look up "Optimal Barrel Time" and you will see discussions on barrel vibration.

I think this is an interesting enough question deserving its own thread (for more inputs). I got some of your points but not all.

 

[harry_x1]

What makes you think that a manual would help?

Bloated self image

 

[spife7980]

Bloated self image

Says the retard discarding every reloading suggestion he has ever received

 

[Oldloser]

What is Ql/grt?

Quickload and Gordon’s Reloading Tool are software tools used to model loads. QL must be paid for and GRT is open source. Both are fairly accurate and easy to use. You can alter environmental parameters and your cartridge parameters to see what the effects will be.

 

[Oldloser]

Mike - seems you have experience shooting "benchrest". Everyone in this forum seems to look upto benchrest shooting for precision/accuracy. Hence seeking your input on this interesting 'experience'. I cut down my 26Inch 6.5c barrell (heavy palma) to 18 inch and found that 1) the ladder test is way way flatter for shorter barrell (similar charge weights from 34 to 43.4 grain with 0.4 increment). 2) my groups have become way tighter for similar charge weights and seating depths.

I am trying to understand what could cause this? should I expect slightly more precision from a shorter barrell? or I have messed something up in testing (remote possibility as I tried being meticulous) or is it something else ...?

I did a lot of work on strain effects on steel beams in grad school. I have struggled to understand how rifle barrels would have any movement other than backwards when fired. Yes there will be a pressure wave and a torsion wave in the steel but these are negligible in terms of measurable strain.

The rifle begins to move rearward when fired. That movement will get converted to a bit of angular displacement and velocity if the shooter is not squared up.. prior to bullet exiting.

A lateral movement of the stock will have a smaller angular displacement of the muzzle for a shorter barrel due to bullet exiting in a shorter amount of time.

 

[Baron23]

Bloated self image

Harry, yeah...this is SH and its a bit rough around the edges but people are really trying to get your attention in the hope of saving your eyesight maybe your face or life even.

I suggest you ignore the tone but heed the message.

 

[ma smith]

I suggest you ignore the tone but heed the message.

+1

 

[harry_x1]

Harry, yeah...this is SH and its a bit rough around the edges but people are really trying to get your attention in the hope of saving your eyesight maybe your face or life even.

I suggest you ignore the tone but heed the message.

I get the message but sometimes I get too tempted when I see super "hypersensitive buttholes". Just toughening them up and having little fun on the way.

 

[Baron23]

I get the message but sometimes I get too tempted when I see super "hypersensitive buttholes". Just toughening them up and having little fun on the way.

Whatever you want, Harry. But please realize that the reloading subforum has a huge stock of very long term expertise on offer and is usually quite business like as reloading can be critical to our maintaining our mortal coil, if you get my meaning.

So, I would also like suggest you rethink tweaking noses here....one day, what these folks may be willing to tell you may save yours..nose that is.

Best of luck and consult some published reloading data FIRST next time.

Cheers

 

[atepointer]

OP I'm not going to make any assumptions about your genuine interest in solving this issue, but I'll just say this about Mike and leave you to keep playing with your pipe bomb in the interim.

He's a wealth of information and readily shares his experience with anyone who asks for help, but for some reason you seem reticent to absorb what he's offering. Your persistence and current path seems to go down the road of an 'ask hole'. I've seen him work reloading issues into teaching a brand new reloader to figuring out insane problems no one else could seem to resolve.

I'd love to see you push back from SH, the reloading bench and then just go read a reloading manual. I doubt you will even need to come back here except to say 'oh ok I get it now, thanks for the help Mike'.

 

[GBMaryland]

I’m telling you, just fill the case with H4350 and level it off with a butter knife… yoooou’ll be fine!









No, not really…..

 

[Scttschnd]

Regarding High Power Course guys, yep, I am on of the knuckle dragging sling shooters. As to our Service Rifle barrel length, its 20" is the rule book rule. Now when we shoot Match Rifle in XTC guys are not using 20" its going to be more like 24, 26, or 28". Bolt or gas.

Now your Palma guys are going to be using much longer barrels. They are rule bound to 308 cal and max bullet weight 155.5, while 223 cal is limited to 85.5 or 80.5, sorry not looking at the rule book.

So I have played a little at LR F Practical matches and want to do more. I am currently limited to a factory rifle with 22-24" barrel of a heavier but not bull barrel contour. I will rebarrel with a longer, heavier profile and maybe go to a 7.5 twist where I am at an 8 twist now.

Shorter barrels, not sure why one would want it on a precision rifle. I do not plan to push anything more than a 140 in my Manbun CM until I speed up the twist and lengthen the barrel. currently loading 42.1 H4350 20 thousands off in new Lapua SRP brass, CCI450, 2 thousandths neck tension. PMA tool makes mandrel dies and pins, even Carbide ones.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

when you see a little C next to the charge weights it stands for competition.

 

[harry_x1]

OP I'm not going to make any assumptions about your genuine interest in solving this issue, but I'll just say this about Mike and leave you to keep playing with your pipe bomb in the interim.

He's a wealth of information and readily shares his experience with anyone who asks for help, but for some reason you seem reticent to absorb what he's offering. Your persistence and current path seems to go down the road of an 'ask hole'. I've seen him work reloading issues into teaching a brand new reloader to figuring out insane problems no one else could seem to resolve.

I'd love to see you push back from SH, the reloading bench and then just go read a reloading manual. I doubt you will even need to come back here except to say 'oh ok I get it now, thanks for the help Mike'.

I give a shit to reputation but 100% respect to evidence backed advice. And for you, in lighter vein...

 

[harry_x1]

I did a lot of work on strain effects on steel beams in grad school. I have struggled to understand how rifle barrels would have any movement other than backwards when fired. Yes there will be a pressure wave and a torsion wave in the steel but these are negligible in terms of measurable strain.

The rifle begins to move rearward when fired. That movement will get converted to a bit of angular displacement and velocity if the shooter is not squared up.. prior to bullet exiting.

A lateral movement of the stock will have a smaller angular displacement of the muzzle for a shorter barrel due to bullet exiting in a shorter amount of time.

yeah, that does make lot more sense vs some other claims from self proclaimed 'reputed' experts in SH. I am not great at geometry, but used this online calculater. Am I reading the results right if I say for a 0.4 inch shift in impact at 100 yards, I only require a 0.0063 degree angular displacement at muzzle? Might be totally wrong, hence seeking your inputs...at 2500 fps a bullet will need additional 0.29 milliseconds to exit the barrell (26 vs 18 inch)...that is a lot of time in my view....thanks for your inputs and time.

 

[Oldloser]

yeah, that does make lot more sense vs some other claims from self proclaimed 'reputed' experts in SH. I am not great at geometry, but used this online calculater. Am I reading the results right if I say for a 0.4 inch shift in impact at 100 yards, I only require a 0.0063 degree angular displacement at muzzle? Might be totally wrong, hence seeking your inputs...at 2500 fps a bullet will need additional 0.29 milliseconds to exit the barrell (26 vs 18 inch)...that is a lot of time in my view....thanks for your inputs and time.

Lateral displacement at the target is the inverse ratio of the distance from your shoulder to the chamber on the rifle vs the distance from the chamber of the rifle to the target multiplied by the displacement at your shoulder. My rule of thumb is 240x. So a .01 inch movement at your shoulder is 2.4 inches.

 

[Oldloser]

I’m telling you, just fill the case with H4350 and level it off with a butter knife… yoooou’ll be fine!









No, not really…..

And leave it in the hot sun for an hour...

 

[nn8734]

I’m telling you, just fill the case with H4350 and level it off with a butter knife… yoooou’ll be fine!









No, not really…..

He’s BTDT.

 

[harry_x1]

Lateral displacement at the target is the inverse ratio of the distance from your shoulder to the chamber on the rifle vs the distance from the chamber of the rifle to the target multiplied by the displacement at your shoulder. My rule of thumb is 240x. So a .01 inch movement at your shoulder is 2.4 inches.

So given that it takes additional .3 milliseconds for bullet to leave, the chances of lateral movement go up significantly? Possible to quantify that number as well...thanks again for your insights, super helpful.

 

[harry_x1]

I think everyone in this thread deserves a look at the rifle in question. See attached image. Total lenght (stock folded) ~28.5 inches, weights 12 lbs (can be bought down below 10 lbs easily with lighter scope etc). This rile has negligible recoil (super soft), is like a laser beam uptill 1000 yards (0.25 moa),single digit SDs, is capable of taking night vision clip ons (illuminated reticle etc), fires a 147 grain projectile at 2600 fps (and thanks to the inputs from SH members, now does that within safety margins at 41.2 grains). I think I have achieved my mission of building a do it all rifle which is practical and effective (PRS, tactical, hunting, NRL hunter etc). I took it out for a match this weekend, and this rifle surely piqued the interest of many a experienced shooters, especially some of active army snipers (as they play more in realm of practicality)

My next experiment might be with a titanium action with even shorter barrell and slightly lighter bullet while meeting all the criteria given above. Will share pictures of the new rifle when done.

 

[harry_x1]

Says the retard discarding every reloading suggestion he has ever received

 

[918v]

why do you say that? Please add more color on what you mean by conincident improving precision of this barrell.

I say that because you don't have a clue. Therefore any change achieved by your shortening of the barrel is coincidental. How did you arrive at the 43.4gr load again? What made you think it was OK? Have you reloaded those cases yet? Did you notice anything different about them?

 

[harry_x1]

I say that because you don't have a clue. Therefore any change achieved by your shortening of the barrel is coincidental. How did you arrive at the 43.4gr load again? What made you think it was OK? Have you reloaded those cases yet? Did you notice anything different about them?

I did a ladder test and failed to see any pressure signs in the test loads and settled on 43.4. I did not see many things wrong with primers and bolt lift was ok. However It did not seem right and hence I posted pics here to get feedback from more experienced shooters. Learnt a lot about ejector marks and other signs. Now I have come down to 41.2 which is working great.

 

[918v]

And that’s a reasonable load. One pressure sign you should have noticed was the severely cratered primer. You should not have cratered primers at all.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I think everyone in this thread deserves a look at the rifle in question. See attached image. Total lenght (stock folded) ~28.5 inches, weights 12 lbs (can be bought down below 10 lbs easily with lighter scope etc). This rile has negligible recoil (super soft), is like a laser beam uptill 1000 yards (0.25 moa),single digit SDs, is capable of taking night vision clip ons (illuminated reticle etc), fires a 147 grain projectile at 2600 fps (and thanks to the inputs from SH members, now does that within safety margins at 41.2 grains). I think I have achieved my mission of building a do it all rifle which is practical and effective (PRS, tactical, hunting, NRL hunter etc). I took it out for a match this weekend, and this rifle surely piqued the interest of many a experienced shooters, especially some of active army snipers (as they play more in realm of practicality)

My next experiment might be with a titanium action with even shorter barrell and slightly lighter bullet while meeting all the criteria given above. Will share pictures of the new rifle when done.

spends $5K on rifle, puts $50 garbage bipod on it.

 

[GBMaryland]

yeah, that does make lot more sense vs some other claims from self proclaimed 'reputed' experts in SH. I am not great at geometry, but used this online calculater. Am I reading the results right if I say for a 0.4 inch shift in impact at 100 yards, I only require a 0.0063 degree angular displacement at muzzle? Might be totally wrong, hence seeking your inputs...at 2500 fps a bullet will need additional 0.29 milliseconds to exit the barrell (26 vs 18 inch)...that is a lot of time in my view....thanks for your inputs and time.

The bullet factors into the equation as well… and they are also not uniform.

For example, solid copper bullets will not fly out fo certain barrels due to blow-by. Whereas, lead core rounds will conform to any issues with the rifling and shoot great.

Not all barrels are the same and inconsistencies will effect how they shoot, including the exact amount of powder that specific barrel requires to shoot it’s most accurately.

In other words, this ain’t trig based physics.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

spends $5K on rifle, puts $50 garbage bipod on it.

Gear snob. Magpuls are over $100 and work just as good as a Harris.

 

[GBMaryland]

Elite Iron or BT…

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Gear snob. Magpuls are over $100 and work just as good as a Harris.

 

[Oldloser]

spends $5K on rifle, puts $50 garbage bipod on it.

I saw that. I had the same one. Got a Harris with an ARCA kit from Short Action Precision and my group size was cut in half.

Driving a magpull bipod is like driving a Miata low on steering fluid.

 

[Oldloser]

The bullet factors into the equation as well… and they are also not uniform.

For example, solid copper bullets will not fly out fo certain barrels due to blow-by. Whereas, lead core rounds will conform to any issues with the rifling and shoot great.

Not all barrels are the same and inconsistencies will effect how they shoot, including the exact amount of powder that specific barrel requires to shoot it’s most accurately.

In other words, this ain’t trig based physics.

Are you one of those dudes who thinks the wind pushes the bullet, too?

 

[Oldloser]

I think everyone in this thread deserves a look at the rifle in question. See attached image. Total lenght (stock folded) ~28.5 inches, weights 12 lbs (can be bought down below 10 lbs easily with lighter scope etc). This rile has negligible recoil (super soft), is like a laser beam uptill 1000 yards (0.25 moa),single digit SDs, is capable of taking night vision clip ons (illuminated reticle etc), fires a 147 grain projectile at 2600 fps (and thanks to the inputs from SH members, now does that within safety margins at 41.2 grains). I think I have achieved my mission of building a do it all rifle which is practical and effective (PRS, tactical, hunting, NRL hunter etc). I took it out for a match this weekend, and this rifle surely piqued the interest of many a experienced shooters, especially some of active army snipers (as they play more in realm of practicality)

My next experiment might be with a titanium action with even shorter barrell and slightly lighter bullet while meeting all the criteria given above. Will share pictures of the new rifle when done.

Glad you are having fun!

My hunting rifle and NRL gun is that exact same setup but with a longer 26" CF MODBB barrel in 6.5CM. I had to add some weight up front to balance it but even with a Leupold Mark 5 and an impact action its still way under 12 pounds.

Glad you are having fun and have a thick skin.

At two matches this summer I saw two different former top shooters pierce primers when they jumped back in at summer with old ammo. Both pulled out of the match having not even gotten off the zero line. Based on what I see at the range and pick up shagging brass at matches a lot of other people are beating up their cases who should know better.

Always start with GRT/QL and put the temp ranges on your boxes after you find a load. I just shot the last of my winter stuff from last year last weekend. It sat out for 8 months.

 

[harry_x1]

Glad you are having fun!

My hunting rifle and NRL gun is that exact same setup but with a longer 26" CF MODBB barrel in 6.5CM. I had to add some weight up front to balance it but even with a Leupold Mark 5 and an impact action its still way under 12 pounds.

Glad you are having fun and have a thick skin.

At two matches this summer I saw two different former top shooters pierce primers when they jumped back in at summer with old ammo. Both pulled out of the match having not even gotten off the zero line. Based on what I see at the range and pick up shagging brass at matches a lot of other people are beating up their cases who should know better.

Always start with GRT/QL and put the temp ranges on your boxes after you find a load. I just shot the last of my winter stuff from last year last weekend. It sat out for 8 months.

that is a great call out. I will still explore lower charge weights and also run this GRT thing. Do you mind sharing some pics of your NRL hunter rifle? If not pics, then some more details on what accuracy you are getting will be great. I am intrigued that you got it under 12 lbs with a 26 inch barrell. I considered a CF barrell but was advised by a gunsmith that these CF barrells dont take heat very well. Curious, how your experience has been with this barrell and its performance in a hot day match setting.

 

[harry_x1]

I saw that. I had the same one. Got a Harris with an ARCA kit from Short Action Precision and my group size was cut in half.

Driving a magpull bipod is like driving a Miata low on steering fluid.

Just for clarification...only reason to pick Magpul was its light weight. It is not a great bipod, but honestly I have never felt it lacking in comparison to my other atlas (minus the weight). I am curious regarding your comment about better accuracy with a harris. Can you add more color to why your harris seems to perform better. I do want to try a diff bipod vs magput, so trying to learn from your experience before buying one.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Just for clarification...only reason to pick Magpul was its light weight. It is not a great bipod, but honestly I have never felt it lacking in comparison to my other atlas (minus the weight). I am curious regarding your comment about better accuracy with a harris. Can you add more color to why your harris seems to perform better. I do want to try a diff bipod vs magput, so trying to learn from your experience before buying one.

This make no sense. You say you care about weight but your component choices suck.

Sphur mount is adding unnecessary weight when you could go with lightweight rings.
Barrel is chonkey, run a smaller profile and/or carbon.
18" is also a retarded idea for a 6.5cm to meet power factor. You are cucking yourself for no reason.
You have a NV bridge that is adding unessisary weight to the gun. Why?
You could replace the muzzle break with a TI one , which will shave a few more OZ off.

This is if you actually cared about shooting NRL hunter to make weight class/power factor.


To top it all off, you are running into pressure signs to try to reach a velocity because you chopped your barrel down like a dumb dumb. If you think its bad now, wait until it rains at a match and you blow your gun up. Happened to a few people at the NRL match last year who also did not know what they are doing and think they can run loads up to max pressure they developed in ideal conditions. Gotta be smarter if you want to be successful.

 

[nn8734]

This make no sense. You say you care about weight but your component choices suck.

Sphur mount is adding unnecessary weight when you could go with lightweight rings.
Barrel is chonkey, run a smaller profile and/or carbon.
18" is also a retarded idea for a 6.5cm to meet power factor. You are cucking yourself for no reason.
You have a NV bridge that is adding unessisary weight to the gun. Why?
You could replace the muzzle break with a TI one , which will shave a few more OZ off.

This is if you actually cared about shooting NRL hunter to make weight class/power factor.


To top it all off, you are running into pressure signs to try to reach a velocity because you chopped your barrel down like a dumb dumb. If you think its bad now, wait until it rains at a match and you blow your gun up. Happened to a few people at the NRL match last year who also did not know what they are doing and think they can run loads up to max pressure they developed in ideal conditions. Gotta be smarter if you want to be successful.

Lol, he don’t care about any of that shit. All sage advice but goes in one ear and out the other with this nitwit…Giving him reloading advice is no different than preaching ethics to a PX scammer.

 

[45-90]

Rifle is a Zermatt Arms TL3, PVA 18inch 1:8 twist barrell. I loaded 3 rounds each with below details:

Load 1: 3 Rounds with 43.4 grain H4350, 147 grain eldm, neck tension 0.004". Achieved MV 2715 fps with 6 SD, 0.5 MOA

Load 2: 3 rounds with 41.4 grain H4350, 147 grain eldm, neck tension 0.004". Achieved MV 2596 fps with 7 SD, 0.3 MOA

Please have a look at attached pictured and let me know if you see any pressure signs. Did not experience any heavy bolt lift. With these results, I am contemplating further reduction in charge weight. But will be great if people can give me some idea on how hot load 2 (41.4 grain) looks like.

thanks for all the help

PS: I am using 0.004" neck tension as this is new brass and I dont have an expander manderal to correct it. In Once fired brass I will correct neck tension to 0.002"

Use a Hornaday reloading manual ...your 43.4 gr load of H4350 with a 147 eldm is ridiculously and dangerously over max for a 6.5 Creedmoor!...each chamber, barrel, and powder lot are slightly different, max charges in loading manuals can "usually" be used, but not always. A good chronograph and brass pressure signs are good tools for guidance, higher velocity equals higher pressures for that powder. Have a knowledgeable reloader help you, as you're in dangerous territory on your own.

Yeah my 18" 6.5 Creedmoor shoots factory 140 Amax's at around 2660 fps.

A 147 would definitely be in the 2400's with my 18" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel.