Help me make sense of this

[4cyl2v8]

My recent purchase is a Savage Mod. 12 LRP in .243 win. It was a used rifle, and when i got it i cleaned it thoroughly. I shot a few rounds through it to check function and accuracy. They were right about 3/4 to MOA maybe a bit less. Later on I made a few rounds of reloaded ammo using the following:

S&B brass trimmed to 2.035, 2.655 OAL, once fired partial neck sized.
Wolf LR primer
IMR 4064
What i think are Sierra 85 Gr. SPFB spitzer bullets (they came in an old paper repackaged box and were stamped $2.87, so probably 20 years old)
Charge weight was from 35 to 38 grains in .5 increments
21 rounds total, 3 groups of 7

So I go to the range yesterday. It was in the mid to upper 30's light wind from 11 O'clock. Range was 100 yards, on the bench from front and rear sandbag rest. 10x Bushnell fixed power scope in DNZ one piece mount

Here is the rub. When I assembled these rounds I made the mistake of priming them before neck size. I cleaned and primer pocket depth uniformed, flash hole de-burred. So I would not have to punch all 21 live primers back out I set the full length sizing die resize/decapping pin short. I only sized the upper .100 to 1/8th of an inch of the neck when i did this. The rounds had awful run-out because the bullets were not held by a long enough neck size I suppose.
But i figured I would shoot them anyways rather than take the risk of detonating a live primer pressing it out. These are the results of 2 of the 3 groups of 7 rounds, single loaded not magazine fed.

So basically what I am questioning is how do 7 rounds that are separated by 3 grains of powder, and have bullet run-out of .010 fall into the same groups of 1/2 MOA not once, but twice? Its almost funny that when I try to do everything to make rounds that are identical I cant get groups like this. Not that I am upset it did shoot great, but it's just a bit maddening. I ran out of time at the range so I still have one 7 shot string to go and I will try them again the next time I go. It seems like I need to make more consistently inconsistent ammunition. I thought it might have something to do with the partial neck sizing and low neck tension on the bullets. Any thoughts as to why this happened? Anyone have something like this happen to them? Do I just need to stop over thinking it and load/shoot more? Damm you OCD.

 

[4cyl2v8]

Spring time is here again, and I want to get a few rounds downrange. First post had to be authorized and wound up on page 3 before due to delay. Where should I start with another round of reloads? Low end to save barrel life, or uper middle? Suggestions welcome.

 

[mdmp5]

There is a difference between "the rifle shot great" and " I shot the rifle great". You can make the most perfect loads, but it won't help a bit if another multitude of factors are off. Loading is probably less than 25% of the battle. Good shooting and shitty loads will outperform good loads and shitty shooting every time.

 

[bigedp51]

I was resizing 30-06 cases for my M1 Garand and was having very little runout and removed the die to deprime some fired pistol cases and wet tumble them. Last night I screwed the 30-06 die back in the press and the very first case had over .005 runout, the die lock ring and the lock nut on the decapping/expander button have rubber o-rings under them. After loosening the lock nut on the decapping/expander button and letting it float more the runout dropped back to under .001 runout.

Bottom line if it isn't the die inducing runout, a case with unequal wall and neck thickness will expand more on one side and warp and increase runout.

The best thing to blame it on is drinking too much coffee and your biorhythms being at low ebb.

Even John Wayne had his off days......................

 

[jcann]

First off don't worry too much about depriming primers. Runout isn't going to show up much if any at 100 yds. Third, a quality rifle and shooter won't reveal much in an OCW at 100 yds. Streach it's legs out to 200 yds. My rifle shoots 1/2 or less MOA at 100 yds when I tried a OCW with 6 different powder weights and 2 different bullet weights. When I took it to 200 yds the next time that's when my groups started telling me things.

 

[pinsandpitons]

Yea, don't sweat de-priming live primers, just go slow and use common sense. I do it as necessary. The one issue to keep in mind is that you may not want to re-use them as they won't fit as tight as when they're fresh. +1 on the good shooting rifle vs good rifle shooting. Also, why not remove the de-priming pin from the end of the expander ball, and size as normal next time? I've done that before.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Until you are getting into ELR, benchrest and F-class type stuff, I wouldn't worry about the runout too terribly much. I am of the mindset of not stressing the small stuff for what most people on here are doing. If it gives you peace of mind, good for you.

That being said, for developing a load I would be sure to prep your cases the same way you plan to for your typical loadings so you get accurate and consistent results during the OCW. And has been said, 100 yards is not necessarily the best indicator of a good load in my opinion. Stretch it out a bit further and do an OCW from there.

 

[bigedp51]

First off don't worry too much about depriming primers. Runout isn't going to show up much if any at 100 yds. Third, a quality rifle and shooter won't reveal much in an OCW at 100 yds. Streach it's legs out to 200 yds. My rifle shoots 1/2 or less MOA at 100 yds when I tried a OCW with 6 different powder weights and 2 different bullet weights. When I took it to 200 yds the next time that's when my groups started telling me things.

It seems a competitive expert would disagree about 100 yard testing.

Topic: Long range load development at 100 yards. (Read 54625 times)
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua USA

Long range load development at 100 yards.

 

[bigedp51]

Until you are getting into ELR, benchrest and F-class type stuff, I wouldn't worry about the runout too terribly much. I am of the mindset of not stressing the small stuff for what most people on here are doing. If it gives you peace of mind, good for you.

The biggest cause of neck runout is caused by locking the expander button down off center and this can be a great deal of runout. With a runout gauge this can be minimized during die setup and sizing just a few test cases. Without a runout gauge you are in the dark and can end up making reloads much inferior to factory ammunition. There is no sense in buying Lapua brass only to pull the necks off center in your resizing die. And don't say anything about bushing dies because they just push the unequal neck thickness to the inside of the neck creating more runout without neck turning.

Bottom line my group sizes are much smaller using a runout and neck thickness gauge, and these two gauges will tell you a lot about the quality of your brass.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

My impression from the OP is that he has the knowledge and equipment on hand to properly setup the dies, but was surprised by the results he observed during testing after adjusting the dies as a workaround to a problem he had with needing to size brass with live primers. 0.010 of runout is quite a bit more than levels many here get all paranoid and as the OP mentioned, he did not have the dies adjusted optimally when the rounds were made. The rounds still printed on paper well and I'd be curious to see how they do at distance with that sort of runout.


Properly setting up your dies to minimize runout and the overworking of your brass is certainly very easy to do and should be done using the proper measuring tools. However, I do not particularly think that obsessing over small details such as runout, weight sorting, etc. is necessary for the needs of most people on here. There are other factors besides runout that I would be far more concerned with such a seating depth, charge weight, and uniform primer seating/depth.

 

[jcann]

It seems a competitive expert would disagree about 100 yard testing.

Topic: Long range load development at 100 yards. (Read 54625 times)
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua USA



Long range load development at 100 yards.

I'm sure there're many who would disagree with me. All I'm stating is my groups were such that I could not determine what charge weight was my best node. By extending my range I was able to find my node.

Maybe next time I'll get a competitive expert to develop my loads for me.

 

[4cyl2v8]

My impression from the OP is that he has the knowledge and equipment on hand to properly setup the dies, but was surprised by the results he observed during testing after adjusting the dies as a workaround to a problem he had with needing to size brass with live primers. 0.010 of runout is quite a bit more than levels many here get all paranoid and as the OP mentioned, he did not have the dies adjusted optimally when the rounds were made. The rounds still printed on paper well and I'd be curious to see how they do at distance with that sort of runout.


Properly setting up your dies to minimize runout and the overworking of your brass is certainly very easy to do and should be done using the proper measuring tools. However, I do not particularly think that obsessing over small details such as runout, weight sorting, etc. is necessary for the needs of most people on here. There are other factors besides runout that I would be far more concerned with such a seating depth, charge weight, and uniform primer seating/depth.

Thanks for the advice everyone. This post comes close to my questions. I was more perplexed that the different powder charges did not more adversely effect the results vertically. I believe I have a fairly good understanding of the reloading process and I try and take my time to perform the necessary operations to get the best results. I have been practicing my technique to shoot more consistently and maybe it is finally starting to show in my groups. I will have to step this rifle up to longer ranges in the near future.

A few groups I have been shooting with my 223 "trainer" rifle. I have been using the methods learned from reading books and forums, plus a few recent purchases to produce consistent 223 reloads. 68 gr hornadys seem to shoot well out of this rifle. I can feel the 2 and 300 yard ranges call in my name soon.

100 yards,

And one at 200,

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.