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Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

D

Defusion

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 15, 2008
303
0
Netherlands
I'm new to this bolt-action game (or rifles even), i do pistol shooting primarily.
I have shot some bolt guns though.

Now i want to get started, and have done some reading.

The plan is:
- Remington 700 sps varmint .308
- swfa 10x scope (ordered)
- seekins mount/base (ordered)
buy some ammo, shoot it.

Now i dont live in the US, and match grade .308 factory rounds are nowhere near affordable (€2($2.5) per round of lapua).
I will start by shooting some PPU .308 168gr "match" which is much more affordable, but probably nowhere near as good as for example FGGM (which we cant get over here), or super expensive lapua stuff.

The plan is to both upgrade the stock to an AICS and also start handloading.
It'll be a few months before i can buy the gun due to local gun laws. But when i do have the gun, i should have enough spare cash to either get into handloading and buy some supplies for that OR buy that AICS stock i want but keep buying sub-par factory rounds until funds recover.

I hope someone can knock some sense in to me, and pursuade in either direction. I want to know what would probably be most beneficial.

I will be shooting on 100m indoor ranges mostly (90%), 300m about 9% of the time, and hopefully push it to 1000y the other 1% of the time (but probably not until i dohandloading and have that stock).
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I personally would deal with the stock first. I don't care for the stock that comes on the SPS rifles and the AICS stocks are great. But I do see your point about ammo costing a lot for you... its a tough call honestly...
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tex762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally would deal with the stock first. I don't care for the stock that comes on the SPS rifles and the AICS stocks are great. But I do see your point about ammo costing a lot for you... its a tough call honestly... </div></div>

Agree
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Well an other way to look at it is you can take the best built rifle in the world and feed it crap ammo and you will get crap accuracy. Your new rifle may be capable of good to very good accuracy right out of the box with no mods needed I have seen it before. However you may never know it if you only use 2MOA ammo. I would get set up for reloading and forget about the stock up grade until you have a few thousand rounds down range. In less you have a very hard time with the current stocks ergos. But even at that I would do the reloading first then upgrade the stock. Just my .02
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

You don't have to spend a ton of money to get started reloading. I'm not sure what the prices would be over there but for a few hundred dollars in reloading equipment you can tailor ammo that will be just as accurate or better than factory. So, I would say get your stock and get started reloading with just the basics. Press, beam scale, primer seater, dies, data book, lube pad, and dial calliper. You can add to your reloading arsenal as you learn and understand what you want and need.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

If I were in your shoes I would take the middle road. Perhaps a base model Manners and the reloading equipment.

If you don't have rigid stock, you don't have much. The same could be said for good ammo.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I would go with the stock first.
You said you were new to rifles so that means to me that you will be doing a lot of drills and practice building a good firing position, learning about the natural point of aim, using a scope, and all the mundane little steps that are so important to accuracy that should be done before you ever fire a single shot.

With that in mind, once you start shooting go with the cheaper ammunition until you are comfortable and shooting consistently sized groups.

By that time you should have saved enough money to buy the reloading equipment.

Good Luck
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Get the stock now. You'll have plenty of brass when you can order the press.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I've had the SPS varmint and I was not impressed with it. I don't think the stock would be a huge improvement for accuracy. I also don't think reloading would help this gun to much. Although I never did reload for it so I can’t speak from experience as my reloading gear was out of state but my SPS never got below 2” with factory match ammo so I don’t think that reloading would have helped it much, YMMV.

I know you set a specific choice but may I suggest buying a Remington 5R, I got 1/2" best to 3/4" easy groups with Federal GMM 175gr. I'd then upgrade its stock to the AICS (if that is your preference), and then start reloading for it. Although I never got a huge accuracy improvement reloading for this gun and if you can get the Federal for a similar price that Palmetto sells it for then reloading may not be a necessity.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Reload. it's a hobby inside of another hobby.... I will never buy another factory box of ammo again (besides pistol) and every rifle that I own has benefited from rolling my own. Reloading also teaches the shooter much more then just pulling the trigger. Stick to a single stage press for the utmost accuracy.

keep your eyes out for a HS take off stock if you wanna keep it cheap but functional.

best of luck
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

get your reloading setup first. A basic single stage kit will cost you less than a high end stock will.

you can then use the money you 'save' (compared to buying factory ammo) reloading to pay for your stock.


i started with the LEE Breech Lock challenger kit last year. got it on sale for $99, $30 for a set of .223 lee pacesetter dies. $30 for the hornady manual. Bought 1k cci primers, a pound of varget and 100 vmax bullets. I had a bunch of once fired brass already. 55gr vmax are a little over $1 each. I roll my own for about $0.46 each - powder, primer, bullet. 165sst's for my 30 cals cost me about $0.64 each. Those are around $1.30 a squeeze if you buy them.

my first batch of 223 vmax i pressed (after my ladder) "paid" for the kit. The next batch "paid" for a digital scale and a hand trickler and a few other goodies. I've since "paid" for a RCBS Chargemaster combo, a Hornady Case Prep Trio and a few other goodies to make my brass prep less tedious.

i say "paid" because i use the savings to justify my other expenses. Makes me feel good. I dont think i've actually managed to save any money reloading, but i get a lot more bang for my buck and im producing better than factory quality/consistency.

YMMV.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Treat it like any other business decision. Look at your initial investment, overhead, return on investment, cost of production etc. If you know your going to invest in a press then do it right away!!!! It will be cheaper in the long run to start loading now! The gun your looking at will like the 155 grain 2156c Palma bullet better than the 168 smk. Tuning a load to your gun will do more that the stock your looking at and a press, brass and dies are cheaper than the stock. You will be saving money from the first round fired to save for your stock. I will tell you that stocks are the Ford, Dodge and Chevy argument of the gun world. If your looking for the best accuracy you can get out of that Remington I would highly recommend you get a McRee Precision Stock.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Thanks everyone for the input. Although it hasn't made my decision that much easier. Good arguments for both.

Especially the argument that i will be doing a lot of dry-practice has pushed me towards the stock upgrade, but then Cmonroe comes with the "business decision" argument, and I'm again torn between the two.

What i wont be doing though, is take the middle road, as i know i will just end up taking longer to get what i really want. My first choice actually was take the 700p and reloading equipment, and i could get started right away. But as i was planning on going with the AICS anyway, i would rather take the SPS Varmint, and save that money towards the stock. I understand the action and barrel are pretty much the same. The 5r does sound appealing though, but they dont sell them over here.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

The SPS varmint will shoot, as you have heard the stock leaves much to be desired. The stock, fresh from the box, has a pressure pad up front and the first couple of shots are not bad. Just after 5 or so shots the barrel will wander because of heat. That stock is a bit stiffer than the Hougue (sps-T stock), so it can be shot from a bipod, but again you will have to let the barrel cool. I changed the stock on mine to an HS precision, but the folks that have removed the pressure pad have reported worse groupings with the tupperware stock.

As for reloading:

Rem700's are hit and miss, in that you can pull a great shooter from the box and hit sub-moa with factory reloads. Some may fair a little larger groups.

With reloading, you may find a load that is very close to the factory load, yet only a few fps (less than a grain of powder) different and hit that accuracy node your rifle needs.


So if you go the SPS-V route, get the reloading setup, shoot the tupperware until you decide which stock you want. Just let the barrel cool.

But......

Since you are in the Netherlands I say jump on a Tikka T3 Varmint in 260, or 6.5 x55, those are two of the chamberings that are tough to find out here (in a Tikka) and the 6.5 bullet has excellent ballistics to 1000Y. Not trashing the R700, as I have 4 of them, but purchasing my Tikka last was an eye opener. The trigger is excellent, the craftmanship and attention to detail is apparent as you look at every part on that rifle. Bolt smooth as silk and it shoots sub right our of the box, period.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

If you are tight on money I would start loading. First, even if you don't get better accuracy compared to factory ammo, you will save a lot of money. That money can saved pretty quickly for a better stock. A stock will get you better accuracy, but it won't put money back in your pocket in the long run.

Second, once you learn a bit of reloading you can improve the performance of the gun by creating ammo that's much better than what you can buy off the shelf.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

start reloading now, with the money saved from buying factory ammo, you can get your stock, in the meantime shoot your pistol some more.
cheers.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Instead of a $1000 aics, get a 250 B&C and use the 750 to reload. Upgrade to a nicer stock later.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Before you buy a stock, you really have to try a bunch out. Unless you have already done that. The AICS does not fit everyone and its kinda love it or hate it. I had a AICS for some time and would always enjoy shooting my buddy's McM T3 so much more. Then I won a Manners stock (a T2) and love it. I have since sold the AICS. Nothing wrong with the AICS, it just didn't fit me comfortably.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I'm leaning toward reloading first (Only the basics at first. I'm going with the RCBS rockchucker press, carbide dies, a digital scale i have lying around, lube, and the required components), as suggested by most. It will allow me to get both reloading stuff and the stock quicker than the other way around.

The AICS is something i'm dead set on though. (Sadly I dont really have oppotunity to test alot of other stocks either, as most people on my range have basic factory rifles.)
In fact, if i wasn't so damn impatient(/poor
wink.gif
), i would get the AI AE/AW right away.
Otherwise i would have went with the 700p or maybe even some factory european bolt action. Basically the sps-v is just a donor rifle for it's barreled action.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

i just spent about a grand on a hornady kit with all the trimmings, dies for .223,308 and 300 wm cant wait to start putting some together.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I'd get the tactical instead. Buy you a b and c stock with bedding block and that should leave you with enought money to get your reloading equipment as well. You can buy a lee single stage kit on the Internet for around $150-200 tO get you started. Then when you get better up grade your dies and powder dispincer and what ever else you need. But for now, it you need factory match ammo my gun used to like the hornady match ammo. Its around 26 a box of 20
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I did the same exact thing you did, same rifle and everything.

The stock on the SPS Varmint is obviously crap. That didn't stop me from shooting 0.75MOA with it.

Trigger time is more valuable. Start handloading. Use the money you save to get a better stock later. You'll become more aware of why it's valuable as you shoot.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Defusion</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> a digital scale i have lying around </div></div>

Watch out with a scale you have laying around. I would only trust a very accurate scale wheather it be digital or beam. I have owned several and have found many to have issues. I recommed the Redding # 2 it is very sensitive and very repeatiable. You would be well advised to spend more now on your reloading components and buy the best it will be much less expensive in the long run. Because if you stick with it you eventually will be upgrading and you will save money on components by not chasing accuracy issues caused by your components. I learned the hard way
cool.gif
.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I want to know how you are getting an SS scope when they don't export?
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to know how you are getting an SS scope when they don't export? </div></div>
A friend who is in the US for his holiday will bring it with him.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Defusion</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> a digital scale i have lying around </div></div>

Watch out with a scale you have laying around. I would only trust a very accurate scale wheather it be digital or beam. I have owned several and have found many to have issues. I recommed the Redding # 2 it is very sensitive and very repeatiable. You would be well advised to spend more now on your reloading components and buy the best it will be much less expensive in the long run. Because if you stick with it you eventually will be upgrading and you will save money on components by not chasing accuracy issues caused by your components. I learned the hard way
cool.gif
. </div></div>
The scale should be very accurate (albeit bulky), though i might have to check the calibration. It's an older analytical scale from a chem. lab.
In the future i will probably go with an automatic dispenser, as i recall from my chem lab. days, it can be very tedious to get the weights right. We didn't have tricklers though
wink.gif


How about dies? I will likely be using the RCBS carbide ones. Should i upgrade to the competition models right away?
As for components, i was planning on starting with lapua scenar bullets, cci primers, VV N140/N540, and some once-fired brass from PPU.
Would using lapua brass increase accuracy in any way? Or is it just better for longevity?
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Defusion</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to know how you are getting an SS scope when they don't export? </div></div>
A friend who is in the US for his holiday will bring it with him.</div></div>

This sounds really shady and could potentially get you in trouble.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Temper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Defusion</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to know how you are getting an SS scope when they don't export? </div></div>
A friend who is in the US for his holiday will bring it with him.</div></div>

This sounds really shady and could potentially get you in trouble. </div></div>

More likely to get your mate in trouble getting it out of the US...!

A lot of new shooters at our club go for a decent stock to start with then get into reloading, some rifles shoot the privi match just fine. If finances allow get into reloading straight away, my advice go with Forster or redding dies.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Temper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Defusion</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to know how you are getting an SS scope when they don't export? </div></div>
A friend who is in the US for his holiday will bring it with him.</div></div>

This sounds really shady and could potentially get you in trouble. </div></div>
As far as i know, rifle scopes aren't restricted though, but I will double check any regulations with my friend. Dont want him to get in trouble!
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

CRY ONCE!!!! bite the bullet on the best you can afford on one or the other. if your only shooting 100m most of the time. you should be holding decent groups. even with mediocre ammo. IMO id do an AICS with a nice trigger. cuz you getting use to the rifle with the shit stock will change once you start changing the chassis. ring height, eye relief..etc will change.then your starting all over again cuz the ergos are a lil different. on the flip side, reloading will greatly increase your knowledge of what is actually goin on.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Reload. It will accelerate both your skills and your savings (in theory - the reality is that you will just shoot more, not a bad thing probably.)

Or

Find someone with a reloading setup that will share.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

If it is that much per round, I would invest in a good reloading kit first!
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KelsonAK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Find someone with a reloading setup that will share. </div></div>
Now why didnt i think of that, thats such a simple solution. I'm sure I can find someone.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I'd fix the rifle first. Might not need an AICS stock though.
Talk to Pete Lincoln from Roedale, he's not too far away from you. Maybe even a small expedition to his workshop and look at a few different stocks.
edi
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

B&C Medalist on classifieds and the RCBS Deluxe Reloading kit. That would also leave you enough scratch to get some components too!
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The SPS varmint will shoot, as you have heard the stock leaves much to be desired. The stock, fresh from the box, has a pressure pad up front and the first couple of shots are not bad. Just after 5 or so shots the barrel will wander because of heat. That stock is a bit stiffer than the Hougue (sps-T stock), so it can be shot from a bipod, but again you will have to let the barrel cool. I changed the stock on mine to an HS precision, but the folks that have removed the pressure pad have reported worse groupings with the tupperware stock.

As for reloading:

Rem700's are hit and miss, in that you can pull a great shooter from the box and hit sub-moa with factory reloads. Some may fair a little larger groups.

With reloading, you may find a load that is very close to the factory load, yet only a few fps (less than a grain of powder) different and hit that accuracy node your rifle needs.


So if you go the SPS-V route, get the reloading setup, shoot the tupperware until you decide which stock you want. Just let the barrel cool.

But......

Since you are in the Netherlands I say jump on a Tikka T3 Varmint in 260, or 6.5 x55, those are two of the chamberings that are tough to find out here (in a Tikka) and the 6.5 bullet has excellent ballistics to 1000Y. Not trashing the R700, as I have 4 of them, but purchasing my Tikka last was an eye opener. The trigger is excellent, the craftmanship and attention to detail is apparent as you look at every part on that rifle. Bolt smooth as silk and it shoots sub right our of the box, period. </div></div>

I agree with roggom - get a Tikka. Have one in 260 rem and it is a great gun. Then check out Roedale and their chassis with Viper skin.
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

Here's a picture of my Tikka build by Pete. As you I was verry impatient and bought this rifle of the shelf. If you don't like the Viperskins ( I can't imagine why?) He can also fit the old style skins.

It has already been said before get the Tikka and you will have a great shooter. If you plan on doing any matches in the Netherlands get the 308. The other calibers will put you in open class and you will be competing against "benchrestrifles"

GroteFoto-UY7OC7FC.jpg
 
Re: Help me prioritize. New stock vs. handloading

I would start with reloading, but I would maybe reconsider what you're buying.

You can save an awful lot of money without sacrificing the qualify of your ammo.
 
It's been nearly 8 months since I've asked this question, but felt it needed a follow-up.
I did get the reloading kit before even getting a rifle. Started reloading for my 9mm.

As for the rifle, let me quote myself:
Defusion said:
The AICS is something i'm dead set on though. (Sadly I dont really have oppotunity to test alot of other stocks either, as most people on my range have basic factory rifles.)
In fact, if i wasn't so damn impatient(/poor), i would get the AI AE/AW right away.
Click to expand...

Guess what, I decided to be patient and live on bread, rice and water for 7 months. I ordered an AI AE Mk3 about a month after I started this thread.
It's at the dealer in the UK right now, just sitting there, waiting for the import/export documents to clear. Should be around the end of this month.
Can't wait, and had to share this with the forum that is starting to cost me a lot of money!
 
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