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Help me understand why...

Bob 964

Sergeant
Minuteman
Feb 10, 2011
375
1
Tallahassee, Florida
Since buying my Savage .308 110FP, the "gold standard" round has been the Black Hills Match 168. My gun loves that round. I started reloading several months ago, and I have been trying to build a bullet that performs like, or better than, the BHM 168.

Today I tested a Lapua 155 Scenar that chronographed (5-shots) at 2795 fps average, with a range of 31 fps. I zeroed at 100 yds, with a consistent group near the center of the target.

I then tested the BHM 168, which chronographed (5-shots) at 2620 fps average, with a range of 30 fps. Without adjusting the scope (since I was only interested in measuring the velocity), I expected the BHM 168 to hit the target slightly below the Lapua group but, to my surprize, the BHM 168 group was consistently 6-7 inches ABOVE the Lapua group.

I don't understand why the slower, heavier BHM 168s were consistently hitting the target so far above the lighter, faster Lapuas. Can anyone help me understand?

Thanks.
Bob
 
Re: Help me understand why...

Harmonics.

Here is some interesting reading for you.

When your bullet leaves the barrel harmonics affect the shape and position of bore/barrel, however slight the distortion may be, it will have a significant affect on what happens on the paper down range. Time is a factor (obviously) when the bullet arrives at the muzzle, depending on how or where the harmonics are traversing your barrel, is where we get the specific "node" that we are working for.

Interestingly, I have a rifle that shoots lower point of impact with every increase in charge weight.

Some one around here can probably explain it a little better.
 
Re: Help me understand why...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308_to_yuma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since buying my Savage .308 110FP, the "gold standard" round has been the Black Hills Match 168. My gun loves that round. I started reloading several months ago, and I have been trying to build a bullet that performs like, or better than, the BHM 168.

Today I tested a Lapua 155 Scenar that chronographed (5-shots) at 2795 fps average, with a range of 31 fps. I zeroed at 100 yds, with a consistent group near the center of the target.

I then tested the BHM 168, which chronographed (5-shots) at 2620 fps average, with a range of 30 fps. Without adjusting the scope (since I was only interested in measuring the velocity), I expected the BHM 168 to hit the target slightly below the Lapua group but, to my surprize, the BHM 168 group was consistently 6-7 inches ABOVE the Lapua group.

I don't understand why the slower, heavier BHM 168s were consistently hitting the target so far above the lighter, faster Lapuas. Can anyone help me understand?

Thanks.
Bob </div></div>

Why don't you keep it apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

Load up some 168 SMKs to 2620 fps and see how your BHA compares to your reloads.

Chris
 
Re: Help me understand why...

Thanks for the good advice Chris. I have built a SMK 168 that chronographed at 2650, and will test it against the BHM 168. I have heard good things about the Lapua 155s and wanted to try some of those. Since I am still searching for the "best fit" for my gun, I am testing every new round against the BHM 168.

Intuitively, I would not expect the point of impact of a slower, heavier bullet to be 6-7 inches above the point of impact of a lighter, faster bullet at 100 yards. It was, and that is the reason for my question. There's a good reason (I am sure) for it, and I'm just trying to get better educated.
 
Re: Help me understand why...

There are two reasons:

1. The heavier bullets will give slightly more recoil.

2. The load is sending the heavier bullets at a lower velocity than the lighter ones giving the barrel a bit more time to rise during recoil.

Barrel harmonics could also play a role.

In handguns, bullet point of impact falling with heavier loads (i.e., faster bullets) is especially noticeable.
 
Re: Help me understand why...

The second the hammer impacts the firing pin your rifle barrel begins to vibrate. Next the primer and the powder begin to burn and the case expands and slams into the side of your chamber. This causes more vibration. The wave's increase as they travel toward the muzzle and eventually the muzzle is oscillating in an oval pattern. The bullet will leave the muzzle at some point in its oval oscillation. YOur seeing the difference in point of impact because of the difference in velocity is getting the bullets to the muzzle at different times in the oscillation of the muzzle. Your slower bullets are leaving the muzzle at a high point in the oscillation. Your faster bullets are getting to the muzzle before the muzzle has time to rise to the same high point so its pointing at a lower point on the target.

An accuracy node is attained when the bullets velocity exits the muzzle when it is at a high point in its oscillation or, its low point. Its these two points in time where the motion of the muzzle is at its most stationary.

This is saying the same thing as Teggy when he said "harmonics."
 
Re: Help me understand why...

Harmonics always play a part in point of impact but the basic answer is what Grumulkin says; recoil and bore time.
 
Re: Help me understand why...

If "harmonics" doesn't mean anything to you, try this:

Whenever you apply a force (like chamber pressure) to an object (like a rifle), that rifle will deform - it will flop around in other words. Imagine if the rifle were made of rubber and you whacked it with a hammer- that happens to real rifes, just with much smaller deformations. But those smaller deformations are still significant enough to throw bullets off the path that you might think they'd be on.

The way the rifle flops around depends not only on the geometry and materials of the rifle but also the force applied to it. The force in this case is primarily dependent on the load used and how you hold the rifle.

So "barrel vibration" is not a complete answer. Basically, your rifle is not rigid, and it will behave in non-obvious ways when you change the charge, bullet weight, front rest, firing pin spring, recoil lug configuration, sling pressure, scope mounts, or any of a million other things. Many have attempted to understand how all this works and to either mitigate it with clever mechanics or "free recoil" techniques, or to game it by tuning the load to the rifle. But the rifle's dynamic response is not a trivial thing to measure, so we basically resort to trial and error.
 
Re: Help me understand why...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jumper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The second the hammer impacts the firing pin your rifle barrel begins to vibrate. Next the primer and the powder begin to burn and the case expands and slams into the side of your chamber. This causes more vibration. The wave's increase as they travel toward the muzzle and eventually the muzzle is oscillating in an oval pattern. The bullet will leave the muzzle at some point in its oval oscillation. YOur seeing the difference in point of impact because of the difference in velocity is getting the bullets to the muzzle at different times in the oscillation of the muzzle. Your slower bullets are leaving the muzzle at a high point in the oscillation. Your faster bullets are getting to the muzzle before the muzzle has time to rise to the same high point so its pointing at a lower point on the target.

An accuracy node is attained when the bullets velocity exits the muzzle when it is at a high point in its oscillation or, its low point. Its these two points in time where the motion of the muzzle is at its most stationary.

This is saying the same thing as Teggy when he said "harmonics." </div></div>

Vibrations true, muzzle oscillations true....but you have the physics a little confused.

Barrel haromics are the generic term for the physical actions (movement) that take place as the charge rapidly burns creating pressure, and as the bullet passes down the bore. IOW, barrel harmonics are a combination of the response of the barrel metal to the "explosion" of the charge, and also a result of the diametric expansion/contraction of the barrel metal as the bullet/pressure pass down it's length, some of which "leads" ahead of the bullet. Think of a radio antennea whipping around and a snake swallowing an egg.

The "vibrations" begin in the chamber and travel forward towards the muzzle, then return towards the chamber, then slings back towards the muzzle, repeating this cycle until they eventually dissipate to nothing...think tuning fork.

This slinging back and forth of the vibrations happens several times during the shot before the bullet reaches the muzzle. The muzzle of the rifle barrel reacts to these vibrations in an imperfect circle of movement, oval oscillation. The pattern of this oscillation at the muzzle is impossible to predict or control. The good thing though is that at certain points before the bullet reaches the muzzle, the vibration is back at the chamber end, which results in a quieter movement of oscillation at the muzzle. The muzzle goes through a series of low oscillations and high oscillations as a result of the vibrations moving back and forth along the length of the barrel. For arguement's sake let's say in layman's terms the muzzle doesn't move much when the vibrations are back at the chamber end, and it jumps around wildly when the vibrations return.

It is at the low oscillation points in the process that we want the bullet to exit the muzzle. Exiting during one of these quieter periods during the harmonics cycle is where we glean what we all call "accuracy", and generically term it as a "node". In my experience using the true principles of OCW I almost always find two of the most useful points in a load work up where the vibrations are at the chamber end, and the muzzle is in it's least amount of oval oscillation. One "node" is about two thirds the way up, and the one I'm looking for is right there almost at maximum charge weight.

It's been argued before but I'll also add that up until the point in time that the bullet exits the muzzle none of the above is a result or is related to recoil. Felt recoil takes place after the the bullet leaves the barrel. The cause and effect of the momentum of the bullet moving in the barrel compared to the combined weight of the rifle and the shooter is nearly immeasurable within the overall physics of what takes place.

There are other factors that come into play regarding the OP's question such as different velocities and different bullet weights, and to some degree a different level of recoil. If both loads are shooting good repeatable accuracy then I wouldn't answer his question with barrel harmonics alone. Bullets exiting the muzzle during a high oscillation point will only show dispersion in group size and are going to fly to any random point within the "group". It would be impossible to get all of them to fly to "good" group at a point some inches higher, or lower, than another load as a reaction to how the muzzle oscillates.