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help! reloading .308 and have newbie bullet weight questions!

nikdanja

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 6, 2014
329
35
Warrenton Virginia
I am very new to reloading and will be purchasing my Dillon 550B press here in about a month and a half. I am starting with pistol loads first to get familiar with everything first but I am starting research on reloading .308 for precision shooting. How do I test different match bullets and powders without spending a ton of money and have leftovers once I found the right load that shoots well? Right now Federal Gold Medal Match is shooting a one hole clover leaf with a 3 shot group at 100 yards (168 grain). (Don't give me crap cause right now the range im at currently only has 100 yard range!) =) I want to test out A-max, nosler and other match bullets to see what my gun shoots the best. Is there no way around it and I will have to shell out a couple hundred dollars testing bullets and different powders; or can I buy a box of match ammo with those bullets already loaded and ready to go for testing?

I have shot other match loads out of my rifle but FGM 168 shoots the best. Its a Remington 700 5R with 11 1/4 rifling. Thanks, Nick.
 
My savage loves the FGGM 168's also. I'm sticking with 168 A-Max and SMK's. Very deadly thru my barrel. Keep reading and ask all the questions you need. You may get ridiculed a time or two( I did) , but you have to ask if you don't know. Pay attention.
 
to make the best match ammo you will be better off loading on a single stage press. i would suggest the rcbs rock chucker kit. it will have everything you need but dies. i have had very good luck getting low sd and es with lee collet dies which are very affordable. everything you will need to know will be in any good reloading manual. the big question is what powders do you have access to. all my 308s love varget but it is hard to find unless you want to get gouged by some ass hole. i use mostly hornady blemished 168 and 178 a maxs and blemished 175 smks. my best 100 yard groups were with 110 sierras and h335. my best 600 yards have been 178 a max and varget. the only thing that really matters is what your gun likes. but the hornady, smk hybrid vld bullets are not as sensitive to seating depth as the vld. it might be easier to find a good load with them. just decide what bullet you want to shoot get 100. if you can not get them to shoot get 100 of something else.
 
why is a single stage press better and what reloading books would you recommend?

Start with the "ABC's of Reloading" for good general info. Then pick up a couple of manuals for load info,.

Actually manufacturers' data is readily available on line for limited bullet/powder combos. Manuals are still good to have though.

Single stage presses have less "slop" in them when compared to progressive presses. You are dealing with a very simple machine with a single stage press and its easier for a noob to miss a step on a progressive or double charge a case. With a single stage, you do each step repetitively until you finish a run. Then move to the next step and start over.

Good Luck,
 
I am very new to reloading and will be purchasing my Dillon 550B press here in about a month and a half. I am starting with pistol loads first to get familiar with everything first but I am starting research on reloading .308 for precision shooting. How do I test different match bullets and powders without spending a ton of money and have leftovers once I found the right load that shoots well? Right now Federal Gold Medal Match is shooting a one hole clover leaf with a 3 shot group at 100 yards (168 grain). (Don't give me crap cause right now the range im at currently only has 100 yard range!) =) I want to test out A-max, nosler and other match bullets to see what my gun shoots the best. Is there no way around it and I will have to shell out a couple hundred dollars testing bullets and different powders; or can I buy a box of match ammo with those bullets already loaded and ready to go for testing?

I have shot other match loads out of my rifle but FGM 168 shoots the best. Its a Remington 700 5R with 11 1/4 rifling. Thanks, Nick.

Chances are that if your rifle likes the 168 fgmm get 100 168 smk's and a pound of IMR 4064 and a regular Large Rifle primer's. I'm sure you will find a load that will shoot clovers with that combo. It is the basic ingredients of the FGMM its self.
 
Hi Nick, welcome to the Hide and to the wonderful world of reloading.

Ok, first off, you are fine loading on your Dillon. I have had excellent results with my 550. One person will say they don't work for precision ammo and you must load on a single stage to get the best ammo. The next person is going to tell you a single stage isn't good enough and you need an arbor press. In the real world, you will be able to load incredible ammo with your 550. It's real easy to go crazy buying all the newest and best gear out there, but you may not gain much, if anything.

I also have a .308 5R and I load for a friend that has a .308 5R. I also have been using a Dillon 550 for years.

Because I reload, I've never tried the FGMM, but there is a thread on the Hide by a guy named Dan Newberry, who plainly put, knows his stuff. He figured out Federal is using IMR 4064 in the FGMM with both the 168 and 175 grain bullets. Here is a link to his webpage and to the specific forum discussion.

OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ral-gold-medal-match-load-mk-316-mod-0-a.html

168 Sierra Matchking has 42.8 grains of IMR 4064
175 Sierra Matchking has 41.8 grains of IMR 4064

The beauty of the .308 is that others have done a ton of load development already and there are many really good recipes that will get you shooting cloverleafs right out of the box. I bumped the two loads up to 43 and 42 grains due to the Lapua brass having a little more case capacity than the Federal brass, and both shoot awesome from both 5R's at 2.800" which is the factory standard.

In addition, IMR 4064 is readily available. So, I think, based on real world experience, that you will be able to shoot very good groups by buying some 168gr. Sierra Matchkings (SMK) and dropping in about 43 grains of powder at a standard factory length of 2.800" with either CCI or Federal primers. Other primers may work, but these are the only two I have tried.

Anyways, I hope that helps ya some!:)

EDIT: The above load Scorpion stated also shoots phenomenally from my 5R. Also, every reloader should have at least a couple reloading manuals on their bench. Nosler is a pretty good one, but any big name manual will work. Each tends to have something useful the other may not. A lot of people like Sierra reloading manuals also. Forums are great, but they are often filled with misinformation or just plain bad advice. A reloading manual by a reputable company will have proper advice to keep you safe.
 
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I agree with what Marksman said about using the Dillon press.

I've used mine like a single stage (to conduct a single operation at a time) with excellent results, and usually use Redding dies for my rifle cartridge loading.

Get additional toolheads, and you can keep your dies mounted as you get each cartridge/load tuned to your liking (then just change toolheads to change the cartridge you want to load).
 
Thank you so much for your insight! Ive been shooting since I was 8 or 9 but really getting into it the past 6 years and it amazes me how awesome the gun community is! Thanks again!
 
to make the best match ammo you will be better off loading on a single stage press. i would suggest the rcbs rock chucker kit. it will have everything you need but dies. i have had very good luck getting low sd and es with lee collet dies which are very affordable. everything you will need to know will be in any good reloading manual. the big question is what powders do you have access to. all my 308s love varget but it is hard to find unless you want to get gouged by some ass hole. i use mostly hornady blemished 168 and 178 a maxs and blemished 175 smks. my best 100 yard groups were with 110 sierras and h335. my best 600 yards have been 178 a max and varget. the only thing that really matters is what your gun likes. but the hornady, smk hybrid vld bullets are not as sensitive to seating depth as the vld. it might be easier to find a good load with them. just decide what bullet you want to shoot get 100. if you can not get them to shoot get 100 of something else.

I load my match .308 on a D/550 and I will match my ammo against yours for accuracy any day, anywhere, any distance!--I use Redding dies.
I do weight every chg of powder---No PM likes to meter extruded powder.
LG
 
I agree with the others. I load with a Dillon 550B. Get the toolhead clamp kit if you are worried about OAL variances. If you load it as a single stage, take your time and be consistant with your "pulls" your variances won't be enough to worry about unless you are OCD like I am. I have a quick change assembly for every caliber I load and it makes it a snap. I also have 3-5 extra toolheads for decapping, forming my 300BLK brass and one for each caliber I use my Dillon RT1200 trimmer with. Extra toolheads are your friend! Don't worry too much about using Varget and other "stick" powders. I just tap on the powder measure while pulling the handle and its pretty damned accurate. When I single stage load on it I set it to drop a tenth or so shy of my load, dump it in a pan on my digital scale and I trickle charge from there. I also have a RCBS beam scale to check my digital scale and I use certified weights to check both scales (Did I tell you I was OCD?). The main thing is be safe, and with a little practice, you will enjoy making better ammo than you can buy.
 
when someone spots like this all i can hear is the big mouth in the gun shop telling me my 25/06 shoots so flat i do not even hold over at 700 yards. not knowing me my ammo what i shoot or anything your boundless claims of ammo superiority made me laugh a little. can you load good ammo on a dillon yes can you load the best ammo on a dillon mabey if you load single stage or prep all your brass first or only use new brass. i would not discount the lee collet die either i get single digit sd in my 300wm when i collet size when i full length i had an sd 20 for the same load
 
when someone spots like this all i can hear is the big mouth in the gun shop telling me my 25/06 shoots so flat i do not even hold over at 700 yards. not knowing me my ammo what i shoot or anything your boundless claims of ammo superiority made me laugh a little. can you load good ammo on a dillon yes can you load the best ammo on a dillon mabey if you load single stage or prep all your brass first or only use new brass. i would not discount the lee collet die either i get single digit sd in my 300wm when i collet size when i full length i had an sd 20 for the same load

You started this 'storm' with your "big mouth" claim about Dillon--
Do all my brass prep(clean, trim, anneal etc)before loading.
Practice brass is far from new. It is Fed match, BTW.
I use my 550 as it was made to be used. Every handle pull gives me a loaded rnd.
I have a private 1K yd range, 15 minutes from my home. Come on over, and you can see what Dillon loaded match ammo can do.
BTW-The Palma Rifle Team loads all of their practice ammo on Dillon 550's.
Carry on,
LG
 
You started this 'storm' with your "big mouth" claim about Dillon--
Do all my brass prep(clean, trim, anneal etc)before loading.
Practice brass is far from new. It is Fed match, BTW.
I use my 550 as it was made to be used. Every handle pull gives me a loaded rnd.
I have a private 1K yd range, 15 minutes from my home. Come on over, and you can see what Dillon loaded match ammo can do.
BTW-The Palma Rifle Team loads all of their practice ammo on Dillon 550's.
Carry on,
LG

oh merciful Posidon please have mercy on this loley mariner. i did not realize some big mouth talking crap was a storm. the palma team loads their practice ammo on a dillon. what do they load their match ammo on. i made no claim about dillon. i said you can load better ammo on a single stage than a progressive.[which is true]. he said precision ammo not good ammo. although his guns may or may not be good enough to tell the diffrence between. gold medal match=progressive load ammo. and true precision ammo.

for the humans in the room. not Posidon conjuring storms to smite me.

i think it is important to learn the process of reloading on a single stage when you have never reloaded before.[as you said you were new to the process] when i find blemished bullet sales i snag up the bullets that i want to try because it is a good cheap way to try bullets. powder for your 308 will have to be what you can find in your area or 4064 until the powder companies catch up. i have the hornay 8 th edition and it has the ABCs of reloading in the beginning. that is why i suggested a reloading manual. you will most likely find lots of loads that shoot very good in your gun if you try lots of things.
 
I find my loads are most accurate if loaded under the light of a full moon, sitting under a live oak three that's been struck by lightning, with a blue-eyed calico cat sitting on my left shoulder, the blood of a fresh-killed rooster sprinkled across the tops of my boots, and sipping Booker's bourbon from a Dixie cup I stole from Wayne Newton's dressing room.


Nick, without getting all Bill Nye, the Science Guy on you, let me say that you already know your rifle likes the 168-gr SMK. A 3-shot "one ragged hole" group with a .308 @100 yards means a group of, at most, 0.34-0.35 minutes of angle. For an untuned factory rifle, that's a keeper, by anybody's yardstick.

And there's nothing wrong with the 168-gr SMK (at least until you get beyond 600 yards or so). There's been many a target shooting championship won shooting it. If your gun is cozy with it (which it apparently is), and unless you have some unstated material need for a different bullet, I see no point in spending resources you could put toward other purposes in auditioning different bullets.

The key to not screwing up that level of precision at extended ranges will be learning to load with a very low standard deviation of muzzle velocities. With the 168-gr SMK, at 600 yards, a 50 fps variance in MV will net you a 5" difference in point of impact. In which case, even if the shooter does everything perfectly, those wonderful 1/3 MoA groups will blossom to better than 1.1 MoA. Your group size triples because your MVs were too inconsistent. Bottom line: at extended ranges, low SD is king.

So if holding down costs is a key concern, instead of fretting over what components to try to shrink what already is an impressively small 100-yard group, my suggestion is that you stick with what you already know works well: the 168 SMK. And pick a powder.

Any powder, really, so long as it's widely reputed to play nice with the 168-gr SMK. The .308 is such a time-tested round, it's pretty well documented which powders it responds to best. Then work on fine-tuning your load and your loading technique with the objective of maintaining those tiny groups to as great a range as possible.

A lot of people hang their hats on these replica recipes for military sniper/match loads. The US Army calls its 168-gr SMK match ammunition "M852." This is an image of the page from the Technical Manual for Army Ammunition, TM43-0001-27 (Apr 1994), detailing the characteristics of the M852 cartridge:



This one is a little odd because most military loads prescribe non-canister powders, which schlubs like me and you can't get unless we break into a DoD arsenal. But this one uses a canister-grade powder, IMR-4895, to be precise, 42.0 grains of it. Unless you're shooting Lake City brass, the charge weight might need a little tweaking. I see suggested charge weights for M852 with generic brass generally ranging from 41.5 grains to 42.2. The published max charge weight for this bullet/powder combination is 44 gr, minimum is 41 gr. So 42 gr might not be all you can be right out of the box, but it's a fair bet it won't be more than a few tenths of a grain from it. But since it also is fairly mild (~50,000 psi), you've got lots of wiggle room.

Me personally, I don't load anything in .308 (bolt guns only) except Varget. Not because I've tested it out against everything else, but just because I was satisfied with how it performed and went no further. I get groups more like 1/2" (@100 yards) with FGMM, so you're working with better base accuracy than I am, but with my Varget handloads I can match that 1/2", from a 155-gr Lapua Scenar up to a 178-gr A-Max.

Not that I consider this group representative of expert reloaders, but they do have a conveniently searchable online database. So for general information, out of 47 user-contributed 168-gr SMK loads at The Reloader's Nest, nine are using Varget, seven for IMR 4064, six each for VV-N140 and VV-N150, three for IMR 4895, and the rest are a hodgepodge of two loads each or less. I could load .308 from now 'till kingdom come and not have need of a powder that isn't on that list.

Since I already mentioned the 155-gr Scenar, let me say that it is my bullet of choice if all I'm out to do is shoot pretty patterns on paper. Despite its lighter weight, it has a higher ballistic coefficient than the 168-gr SMK. So even at the same velocities, it shoots flatter and bucks the wind better than the 168 SMK by virtue of the higher BC. All that with less recoil, too. But because it's lighter, you also can drive it faster than the 168 SMK. Which only amplifies its superior wind-bucking and increased danger space. But it comes by that high BC by virtue of a very long taper and high ogive number (3.3 versus just 2.2 for the 168 SMK). Which makes it unusually long for its weight, and so harder to stabilize. Rule of thumb with shooters with 1:12 barrels is they like to drive it at to least 2900 fps to guarantee stability. If you've exhausted your supply of 168-gr SMKs and want to give it a whirl, with your 1:11.25 twist, stability should be no worry at all. But there is no free lunch, and Scenars are a little spendier than SMKs.
 
I am very new to reloading and will be purchasing my Dillon 550B press here in about a month and a half. I am starting with pistol loads first to get familiar with everything first but I am starting research on reloading .308 for precision shooting. How do I test different match bullets and powders without spending a ton of money and have leftovers once I found the right load that shoots well? Right now Federal Gold Medal Match is shooting a one hole clover leaf with a 3 shot group at 100 yards (168 grain). (Don't give me crap cause right now the range im at currently only has 100 yard range!) =) I want to test out A-max, nosler and other match bullets to see what my gun shoots the best. Is there no way around it and I will have to shell out a couple hundred dollars testing bullets and different powders; or can I buy a box of match ammo with those bullets already loaded and ready to go for testing?

I have shot other match loads out of my rifle but FGM 168 shoots the best. Its a Remington 700 5R with 11 1/4 rifling. Thanks, Nick.

I'm a fairly newer hand loader as well. I was faced with the same decision, progressive or single. I opted to go single stage. I simply don't have the time to load bulk pistol. I shoot .40 S&W but not to the point where I need to justify bulk reloading. I do however shoot precision match about 70 rounds a week. My choice was the RCBS Rock Chucker master single stage kit. It is a rock solid very well built press, and there's a $50 rebate on a $300+ purchase. I scored my Chucker on Ebay for $300 shipped, so my net cost was $250, awesome deal for someone like me starting out from nothing. I load .223 and .308 match and am very happy with the RC kit. My main reason for not going with progressive presses was the initial complexity which as a new hand loader would have made my learning curve more frustrating. Your in a tough spot as you want to load bulk pistol and match... you will most likely end up owning both styles of press... LOL
 
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I use my Dillon 550B for my precision loads. I take the the case out at the 2nd position, throw the charge with an RCBS Chargemaster waiting until it cycles thru the round count to see the final weight. Usually right on. Then add or subtract if any additional powder is needed. Reinsert then seat with Forster micrometer die an very lightly crimp with Lee factory crimp die. I also loaded some 308 rounds on my Rock Chucker and found no difference in group size. Below is a typical group I now get with my TRG 22 once I settled on my go to load. I use 168 SMK's, IMR 4895, Winchester primers in Lapua brass. I have the Dillon 1200 trimmer on my Rock Chucker now.
 

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"Match" ammo for Palma is factory loaded and said ammo is the same for all competitors in Palma Matches.
Your insults to me, shows much about you to ALL on this forum--Think it over.
LG

I shot a Palma match yesterday and was not issued any ammo, did I miss out on something? Everybody else was shooting their own too. Maybe the factory ammo truck was just late on the delivery?
 
They don't issue ammo at the nationals either. The host country used to supply all of the ammo, rifles too, for the international Palma match, but it's been a while since that was the case. Maybe that's what you're thinking? Are you a Palma shooter, or just a guy looking stuff up on the internet?

Shot Palma 25 years ago when I had the eyes. 63+ years old now and must use a scope--
And YES that's what I was think'n
Why the SA remark?
LG
 
One thing is, you can always use a single stage press for various jobs.

Pulling bullets. Making up test loads. Etc.

I normally recommend starting with a single stage. And then later add a progressive, IF you find you need it.

I got my Dillon because I was shooting IPSC and shooting close to 75- rounds per week between matches and practice.
 
Shot Palma 25 years ago when I had the eyes. 63+ years old now and must use a scope--
And YES that's what I was think'n
Why the SA remark?
LG

Why the SA remark? This is the internet! Seriously though, your comments about the Palma team loading all of their practice ammo on 550's, and match ammo being commercially loaded and distributed for Palma matches would lead me to believe that you don't know a lot about the topic. Forgive me if you do.

As for the original topic, I also load all of my ammo on a 550. Even precision rifle loads. Even Palma loads that I will use at the National Championships. Like others, I do not use the powder measure, but dump powder charges in at station #2 with a funnel die. I also pin the tool heads and float the dies for the calibers I shoot in competition. This produces ammo as concentric as a single stage can do, but in much less time. People will tell you that you will always have a use for a single-stage press, but I don't know what that use is. I have single-stages also, and I can't ever find anything to use them for. The Dillon is just faster and easier for every task I've found so far.
 
That's it.

I will look into the floating toolheads but let me ask a question... I have a Dillon alignment tool that I had to use because my press was sent to me way out of alignment. Do you think using the alignment tool with the particular toolhead clamped in place would work as good as the floating toolhead or give me the same results? Just thinking out loud...
 
I will look into the floating toolheads but let me ask a question... I have a Dillon alignment tool that I had to use because my press was sent to me way out of alignment. Do you think using the alignment tool with the particular toolhead clamped in place would work as good as the floating toolhead or give me the same results? Just thinking out loud...

I am not familiar with the alignment tool or how it works. The idea behind using a precision toolhead, clamping it into place and then floating the sizer and seater dies is this:

1. Clamped toolhead keeps it from "twisting" (for lack of a better term) under different forces at different stages. Tiny variations in case length, bullet length, neck tension, etc cause the normal toolhead to twist. It'll be a little different with every pull of the handle and is the biggest reason for non-concentric ammo on the Dillons.

2. Floating the sizer and seater in the clamped toolhead allows the die to self-align on the case.

You our can prove the concept to yourself by measuring runout on rounds you loaded in the middle of a loading session where all 4 stations were full, then comparing it to rounds loaded singly with no other rounds/cases in any of the other stations while you load. The rounds loaded singly will generally have more runout due to the uneven twist from the single case only pushing up in one spot. Having all stations full generally results in better runout, but there is no way to make it consistent due to the little variables mentioned above.

I don't know if he was the first to do this, but David Tubb wrote about this method in his "Rifle Shooter" book over 10 years ago. It really works, and I honestly get ammo with virtually no runout loading this way. I can not get numbers any better on my single stage presses. I rarely measure runout anymore since modifying my 550 this way because it's always the same. Before doing this, I was not satisfied with the concentricity of the ammo I got out of my 550, and was considering changing over to a different setup for precision rounds. The clamp and float method fixed all of this, so I load everything on the 550. I shoot a lot and my accuracy requirements are very high, so I wouldn't do this if it didn't work.

Good luck
 
nikdanja - boy did this thread go off target quickly!

With regard to your original inquiry, the first questions I would ask you are specifically what type(s) of "precision" shooting are you planning to do, and what is the maximum range you anticipate shooting? Answering those two questions may help you narrow down your choices significantly.

For example, if you plan on mainly target shooting, maybe a midrange (600 yd or less) F-Class or Tactical match here and there, with the majority of your shooting done at 500-600 yd or less, there are many bullets you can choose from in the 155 gr on up range that will work just fine, including the SMK 168s. If cost is an issue, the SMK 168s or 175s are fairly reasonable, also take a look at the Hornady 178 BTHP bullet. If you don't mind spending a little more $$$, I'd think about Berger 155.5 Fullbore, 168 Hybrid, or 175 Tactical bullets.

On the other hand, if you're seriously planning on shooting 800-1000 yd, just be aware that longer barrel length (and muzzle velocity) are your friends. In addition, I would strongly suggest going straight to something from Berger or possibly the Hornady 178s if this is the case. They make very consistent products with high ballistic coefficients that will help you at longer ranges.

Finally, you can help narrow down your choices by letting the rifle tell you what it's optimized to shoot. It's really less about the weight of the bullet than it is about the BC and how well a particular bullet is suited for your rifle's chamber. If you don't know the chamber specs, then measure your chamber (if you haven't already done so) using something like the Stony Point gauge (Hornady OAL gauge) or similar. This may give you some idea of whether you should be looking at short to medium length bullets, or maybe you have enough freebore to load something a little bit longer/heavier. For example, several of my .308s are chambered with .085" freebore. The longest bullet I can load/shoot without having it sunk way down in the case with the boat tail below the neck/shoulder junction is the Berger 185 Juggernaut. Anything in the 200+ gr range is simply not optimal for these rifles. Even with the 185s my freebore is on the sort side. Lately, I have been playing around with the Berger 168 Hybrids and getting very good results. That particular bullet has an extremely short bearing surface for its weight so it doesn't require a long throat, and can be pushed pretty hard. It also has a very high BC for its weight.

Overall, if you let the type shooting you intend and the rifle point you in the right direction, you should be able to narrow your choices down significantly, maybe to one or two bullets. At that point, it will generally be possible to develop a load with one of them that shoots well out of your rifle. I think that for you to try out several different bullets at once would really be a waste of time, $$$, and effort. Pick up 50-100 of one or maybe two bullet types that will do the intended job and start in. Best of luck with it.
 
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I still use my RCBS rock Chucker single stage press that I bought as teenager in the early 70's.

In the 308 Win.......I agree with everyone IMR 4064 at 41.75 with 175 Sierra MK and fed GMM brass with Fed 210 Match primer

The 3 best powders that I have used in the 308 Win.....IMR 4895, IMR 4064 and Varget
 
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I,m just like Alaska, and the Rockchucker. I do use a progressive, sometimes, for pistol loading. I load for four Remmy 5Rs . Having powder choices is good,these days. 4895,Varget, 4064, Viht 135 all work well in the .308. I use them all. If you can,t find one kind, it's nice to have a back up. However you load, be careful. Be as precise as you can, and remember two things: Start low and work up. Any time you change anything- ie cases, powder, bullets, OAL,etc......start low and work up, again. What works in your gun may not work in another. Strange as it seems, 2of my 5Rs like the same loads. The other 2 seem to be females, and are a little more finicky. One likes IMR-4895@ 41.6, with a 168 hornady BTHP, and the other likes4064@ 40 grins and the 168. Both using Lake City brass. My loads for win and federal brass are different. To save time and money, buy an 8 pounder of any of the listed choices. You'll get close to 900 or so loads with that and not have to retest for a new powder. Same with bullets. I found a deal on 168Hornadys. Bought 2 K. Have fun, be careful.