I have been reading here and on the internet to help me with the decision on a 1-4 scope for a LWRC M6A2 6.8. I have not been able to make a decision yet based upon my findings. There are a lot of pros and cons to both. Primary use will be for hog hunting during night or low light situations. My first two choices are the Nightforce and the Vortex PST. Both seem to have decent reviews. The Vortex seems to have better illumination during daylight hours. I like the idea of a rifle that can be used for multiple purposes. I also like to spend money on things that I will not be sorry with in the future (Nightforce reliability). Which of the two has better glass? Which of the two will do better in low light situations? Any actual comparisons would be greatly appreciated. It would be hard for me to find the time to travel somewhere to try them side by side. Thanks for your help.
Rifle Scopes Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
- Thread starter gmphk
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Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
I run a mark 4 1.5-5x24 on my M6A3 with great results... A vortex 2.5-10x44 on my 16" remmy .308 bolt action and a NF 3.5-15x50 on my OBR... All offer great glass, audible/positive clicks and sound construction.
Buy once cry once (with in means).
I run a mark 4 1.5-5x24 on my M6A3 with great results... A vortex 2.5-10x44 on my 16" remmy .308 bolt action and a NF 3.5-15x50 on my OBR... All offer great glass, audible/positive clicks and sound construction.
Buy once cry once (with in means).
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
I can't give you a comparison, but I own the Vortex PST and it is a great optic. The design is very sold and of very high quality. The glass is impressive for what it cost. I really like the illuminated reticle. Pleanty of settings and turning off between each intensity level is a great design. Plus you could spring for a solid mount like a LaRue and still be under what the Nightforce alone would run you.
I can't give you a comparison, but I own the Vortex PST and it is a great optic. The design is very sold and of very high quality. The glass is impressive for what it cost. I really like the illuminated reticle. Pleanty of settings and turning off between each intensity level is a great design. Plus you could spring for a solid mount like a LaRue and still be under what the Nightforce alone would run you.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run a mark 4 1.5-5x24 on my M6A3 with great results... A vortex 2.5-10x44 on my 16" remmy .308 bolt action and a NF 3.5-15x50 on my OBR... All offer great glass, audible/positive clicks and sound construction.
Buy once cry once (with in means).
</div></div>
I have gotten really good at the "buy once cry once" thing. That is why I continue my research by asking you guys. I hate to be sorry for a bad purchase in this hobby/life style. Hard to sell this stuff sometimes without a big loss...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run a mark 4 1.5-5x24 on my M6A3 with great results... A vortex 2.5-10x44 on my 16" remmy .308 bolt action and a NF 3.5-15x50 on my OBR... All offer great glass, audible/positive clicks and sound construction.
Buy once cry once (with in means).
</div></div>
I have gotten really good at the "buy once cry once" thing. That is why I continue my research by asking you guys. I hate to be sorry for a bad purchase in this hobby/life style. Hard to sell this stuff sometimes without a big loss...
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCONE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't give you a comparison, but I own the Vortex PST and it is a great optic. The design is very sold and of very high quality. The glass is impressive for what it cost. I really like the illuminated reticle. Pleanty of settings and turning off between each intensity level is a great design. Plus you could spring for a solid mount like a LaRue and still be under what the Nightforce alone would run you. </div></div>
About half of what the Nightforce costs on LaRue's site. Thanks for your input. The reviews I have read are right in line with yours...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCONE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't give you a comparison, but I own the Vortex PST and it is a great optic. The design is very sold and of very high quality. The glass is impressive for what it cost. I really like the illuminated reticle. Pleanty of settings and turning off between each intensity level is a great design. Plus you could spring for a solid mount like a LaRue and still be under what the Nightforce alone would run you. </div></div>
About half of what the Nightforce costs on LaRue's site. Thanks for your input. The reviews I have read are right in line with yours...
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
I looked at 1-4's and went with the TA31 ACOG. Eye box is very forgiving, you can shoot eyes open, reticle is awesome, glass is awesome and it is very light and compact.
Much easier I think for AR-15. I have the TA31RCO and love it. You might also check the TA31F or one of the other reticle options.
I looked at 1-4's and went with the TA31 ACOG. Eye box is very forgiving, you can shoot eyes open, reticle is awesome, glass is awesome and it is very light and compact.
Much easier I think for AR-15. I have the TA31RCO and love it. You might also check the TA31F or one of the other reticle options.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Recon5x5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I looked at 1-4's and went with the TA31 ACOG. Eye box is very forgiving, you can shoot eyes open, reticle is awesome, glass is awesome and it is very light and compact.
Much easier I think for AR-15. I have the TA31RCO and love it. You might also check the TA31F or one of the other reticle options. </div></div>
How does the ACOG do in low light?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Recon5x5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I looked at 1-4's and went with the TA31 ACOG. Eye box is very forgiving, you can shoot eyes open, reticle is awesome, glass is awesome and it is very light and compact.
Much easier I think for AR-15. I have the TA31RCO and love it. You might also check the TA31F or one of the other reticle options. </div></div>
How does the ACOG do in low light?
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
Have you looked at the SWFA 1-4x? (or the 1-6x)if it is anything like my 5-20x HD, it would be a great choice. They are also on sale and you could get a great deal from a great company.
I have the Burris TAC 30 1-4x, cant beat it for the price. They also offer the MTAC 1-4x which is slightly better and slightly more expensive. Neither are as nice as the ones you mentioned, but both would likely do fine for what you need.
Lots of options; Good luck!
Have you looked at the SWFA 1-4x? (or the 1-6x)if it is anything like my 5-20x HD, it would be a great choice. They are also on sale and you could get a great deal from a great company.
I have the Burris TAC 30 1-4x, cant beat it for the price. They also offer the MTAC 1-4x which is slightly better and slightly more expensive. Neither are as nice as the ones you mentioned, but both would likely do fine for what you need.
Lots of options; Good luck!
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
maybe better than both of those for your primary use is probably a trijicon tr24. The glass is all pretty comparable, ie with some illum there is no difference, and the reticle in the tr24 is way faster--it's like a red dot that you can change from 1-4x.
Where you lose with the tr24 is past 300 yards if you need a ranging reticle.
I find the Vortex reticle to be a little too subtle without illumination. That is something you can't tell by looking at pics online, though.
Either way, you are not going to go wrong. I wouldn't sweat it too much--and I'd look at the SS 1-4x--they are selling some with the donut reticle (their best reticle IMHO) on samplelist for about $100 off. That would reduce your hit if you wanted to resell.
Or buy used on the boards here. That is the best way to avoid taking big hits.
maybe better than both of those for your primary use is probably a trijicon tr24. The glass is all pretty comparable, ie with some illum there is no difference, and the reticle in the tr24 is way faster--it's like a red dot that you can change from 1-4x.
Where you lose with the tr24 is past 300 yards if you need a ranging reticle.
I find the Vortex reticle to be a little too subtle without illumination. That is something you can't tell by looking at pics online, though.
Either way, you are not going to go wrong. I wouldn't sweat it too much--and I'd look at the SS 1-4x--they are selling some with the donut reticle (their best reticle IMHO) on samplelist for about $100 off. That would reduce your hit if you wanted to resell.
Or buy used on the boards here. That is the best way to avoid taking big hits.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
I've had the PST and the Trijicon. I still have the Nightforce.
As far as the glass quality goes, the PST and the Nightforce were about on par. The Trijicon was at the bottom of the list. Not that it was bad, just not as good.
The PST is a fine scope, especially for the price, but I had my gripes about it. Just subjective things that made the scope less ergonomic for me. I really hated how sharp the knurling is on the knobs. Although the build quality is good, it just didn't instill the sense of confidence that I get with the Nightforce. If you hold both in your hands at the same time, you'll know what I'm talking about.
The Trijicon is nice too, but the illumination system is less than perfect. There are situations, although limited, where you can loose the reticle altogether. Still, no piece of equipment is perfect. I was just really disappointed in the quality of the glass. I'm not really turned on by illuminated reticles just for the sake of having them. In really low light situations, there were times when I could see the reticle and nothing else because I just wasn't able to see though the scope. Like it just wasn't gathering enough light.
On one particular rifle, I started out with a TA33 ACOG. I tried out a Sightron SII Big Sky 1.5-5X and found that I could see better through the Sightron in low light than I could with the ACOG, so I sold the ACOG. In my quest for a cool piece of gear, I also tried a TR24. Again, I opted to stay with the Sightron because I got better low light performance.
For me, the Nightforce was it. I really don't recall the illumination on the PST being more visible in the daylight. Neither are intended to be daylight illuminated reticles.
The Nightforce is what to go for if tough is what you want. If you just want the bells and whistles, but ultimate toughness can take a back seat, then save yourself some money and get the PST.
I've had the PST and the Trijicon. I still have the Nightforce.
As far as the glass quality goes, the PST and the Nightforce were about on par. The Trijicon was at the bottom of the list. Not that it was bad, just not as good.
The PST is a fine scope, especially for the price, but I had my gripes about it. Just subjective things that made the scope less ergonomic for me. I really hated how sharp the knurling is on the knobs. Although the build quality is good, it just didn't instill the sense of confidence that I get with the Nightforce. If you hold both in your hands at the same time, you'll know what I'm talking about.
The Trijicon is nice too, but the illumination system is less than perfect. There are situations, although limited, where you can loose the reticle altogether. Still, no piece of equipment is perfect. I was just really disappointed in the quality of the glass. I'm not really turned on by illuminated reticles just for the sake of having them. In really low light situations, there were times when I could see the reticle and nothing else because I just wasn't able to see though the scope. Like it just wasn't gathering enough light.
On one particular rifle, I started out with a TA33 ACOG. I tried out a Sightron SII Big Sky 1.5-5X and found that I could see better through the Sightron in low light than I could with the ACOG, so I sold the ACOG. In my quest for a cool piece of gear, I also tried a TR24. Again, I opted to stay with the Sightron because I got better low light performance.
For me, the Nightforce was it. I really don't recall the illumination on the PST being more visible in the daylight. Neither are intended to be daylight illuminated reticles.
The Nightforce is what to go for if tough is what you want. If you just want the bells and whistles, but ultimate toughness can take a back seat, then save yourself some money and get the PST.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
The ACOG is awesome in any light. The dual lit reticle works in near darkness (fiber in daylight, tritium for low/no light). The eye relief is short, but not for an AR, and the eye box is very forgiving. You get a very big sight picture and it is absolutely crystal clear.
Also, it does work for me with both eyes open. I have the 4x32 TA31RCO which has the coolest reticle. It comes with a screw-in ARD. The ARD would cut down on light transmission in low light, and with it off you have the exposed threads. If you don't want to go that way, you can choose the TA31F, which is also chevron but no ARD. The TA31F is about $100 cheaper and it also doesn't have the windage hash marks on the reticle (vertical hold hash marks only). The ACOG 4x is very fast and very very tough.
Note that on a used ACOG dual-illumination, the tritium for low light has a 12-year stated life.
You won't regret ACOG. Look through one at a gun shop and compare the view with anything else.
The ACOG is awesome in any light. The dual lit reticle works in near darkness (fiber in daylight, tritium for low/no light). The eye relief is short, but not for an AR, and the eye box is very forgiving. You get a very big sight picture and it is absolutely crystal clear.
Also, it does work for me with both eyes open. I have the 4x32 TA31RCO which has the coolest reticle. It comes with a screw-in ARD. The ARD would cut down on light transmission in low light, and with it off you have the exposed threads. If you don't want to go that way, you can choose the TA31F, which is also chevron but no ARD. The TA31F is about $100 cheaper and it also doesn't have the windage hash marks on the reticle (vertical hold hash marks only). The ACOG 4x is very fast and very very tough.
Note that on a used ACOG dual-illumination, the tritium for low light has a 12-year stated life.
You won't regret ACOG. Look through one at a gun shop and compare the view with anything else.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
ACOGs are sweet and bombproof optics but for close up use, they are slow. If you end up dealing death to some running hogs at 25 yards or even some running hogs at 50 yards, you'll be wanting your scope set at 1x or 2x at most, which won't be an option with a 4x fixed scope. I owned and sold both a 3x and 4x Acog--I liked all my various 1-4x's better.
ACOGs are sweet and bombproof optics but for close up use, they are slow. If you end up dealing death to some running hogs at 25 yards or even some running hogs at 50 yards, you'll be wanting your scope set at 1x or 2x at most, which won't be an option with a 4x fixed scope. I owned and sold both a 3x and 4x Acog--I liked all my various 1-4x's better.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
I am curious why you think the ACOG is slow. Don't you have to change magnification on a 1-4x?
I've never hunted, but I have done a bit of action shooting with iron sights. There, slow = bad cheek weld and fumbled reloads. That fact doesn't change much for me with the ACOG. I have read that some people find eyes open with the ACOG annoying or difficult, which is why some people mount a rmr along with the ACOG. I don't.
Would love to hear you expand on your statement, for my own schooling and for the OP.
Thanks.
I am curious why you think the ACOG is slow. Don't you have to change magnification on a 1-4x?
I've never hunted, but I have done a bit of action shooting with iron sights. There, slow = bad cheek weld and fumbled reloads. That fact doesn't change much for me with the ACOG. I have read that some people find eyes open with the ACOG annoying or difficult, which is why some people mount a rmr along with the ACOG. I don't.
Would love to hear you expand on your statement, for my own schooling and for the OP.
Thanks.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
Thanks for the great responses everyone. I currently have an ACOG 4X on the rifle with the horseshoe reticle and like it for shooting groups at 100. The 6.8 is extremely accurate with all of the loadings I have tried. Believe it or not, all sub MOA. I am just not sure of the optic in low light situations since I have not shot it at those times. I really like the reticle, so that is not the issue. I just want the best scope for using in low light for my purpose. I am a big Nightforce fan already. I have an F1 on my GAP-10 and could not be happier. This moves me towards the Nightforce but just wanted some closure on my decision. I have still not made the decision to buy yet. I will be out on the ranch in early June to kill some pigs and am thinking a couple months ahead. I am completing a trust on Thursday to buy a can for the rifle and want to have the best tool for the task at hand. This post and answers leaves me with some decisions to make...
Thanks for the great responses everyone. I currently have an ACOG 4X on the rifle with the horseshoe reticle and like it for shooting groups at 100. The 6.8 is extremely accurate with all of the loadings I have tried. Believe it or not, all sub MOA. I am just not sure of the optic in low light situations since I have not shot it at those times. I really like the reticle, so that is not the issue. I just want the best scope for using in low light for my purpose. I am a big Nightforce fan already. I have an F1 on my GAP-10 and could not be happier. This moves me towards the Nightforce but just wanted some closure on my decision. I have still not made the decision to buy yet. I will be out on the ranch in early June to kill some pigs and am thinking a couple months ahead. I am completing a trust on Thursday to buy a can for the rifle and want to have the best tool for the task at hand. This post and answers leaves me with some decisions to make...
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
I was thinking about getting the PST as well and just looked at it in a shop the other day. The build was solid and the glass, for the price, was good. The illumination seemed fine too although I didn't take it out side. My big concern with it was that when not illuminated, the reticle can sometimes be hard to keep track of and find. Especially when looking at something darker in color I would lose it all together.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread is just seemed a bit subtle when not lit up. IMO anyway. I ended up ordering the SWFA 1x6 instead but is still on back order of course so can't give a review of it yet. Hopefully soon though.
I was thinking about getting the PST as well and just looked at it in a shop the other day. The build was solid and the glass, for the price, was good. The illumination seemed fine too although I didn't take it out side. My big concern with it was that when not illuminated, the reticle can sometimes be hard to keep track of and find. Especially when looking at something darker in color I would lose it all together.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread is just seemed a bit subtle when not lit up. IMO anyway. I ended up ordering the SWFA 1x6 instead but is still on back order of course so can't give a review of it yet. Hopefully soon though.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
1-4x scopes are so 2010. Get with the game man, its 1-6's everywhere now.
Hell, you say you're good at "buy once, cry once", prove it. Since its gonna ride on a LWRC M6, might as well get Leupolds 1-8.
Jokes aside, I haven't ran the NF but had played with the Vortex and Accupoint 1-4s, and I still have the Accupoint TR24. For typical 3 gunning, its been great. <span style="color: #FF0000">A good cattail is a MUST.</span>
1-4x scopes are so 2010. Get with the game man, its 1-6's everywhere now.
Hell, you say you're good at "buy once, cry once", prove it. Since its gonna ride on a LWRC M6, might as well get Leupolds 1-8.
Jokes aside, I haven't ran the NF but had played with the Vortex and Accupoint 1-4s, and I still have the Accupoint TR24. For typical 3 gunning, its been great. <span style="color: #FF0000">A good cattail is a MUST.</span>
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
I had 4 4X ACOG's on my AR's until I discovered the Nightforce NXS 1-4X24 scope with the FC2 reticle. At 1X with the illumination on it works like my ACOG's but have the ability to increase the power to 4X. If I had it to do over I would have bought 4 other Nightforce 1-4X24's rather than the ACOG's. The short eye relief on the 4X model can be a real pain.
I had 4 4X ACOG's on my AR's until I discovered the Nightforce NXS 1-4X24 scope with the FC2 reticle. At 1X with the illumination on it works like my ACOG's but have the ability to increase the power to 4X. If I had it to do over I would have bought 4 other Nightforce 1-4X24's rather than the ACOG's. The short eye relief on the 4X model can be a real pain.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
I'd stay away from an ACOG, unless the rifle it's going on has a specific purpose which the ACOG lends itself to.
ACOGs are pretty purpose specific sights, from the color of the illumination to the eye relief as it varies among the several models available. In my experience, they are not very flexible.
I am also not too crazy about the performance of the ACOGs in low light. Yes, the reticles are visible, but not much else.
As nice as the ACOGs are, I think that most are better served by conventional scopes.
I really like the Nightforce 1-4X, but think that you should also consider the SS 1-6X. Heck, if you have the money, the Swarovski 1-6X is killer.
I'd stay away from an ACOG, unless the rifle it's going on has a specific purpose which the ACOG lends itself to.
ACOGs are pretty purpose specific sights, from the color of the illumination to the eye relief as it varies among the several models available. In my experience, they are not very flexible.
I am also not too crazy about the performance of the ACOGs in low light. Yes, the reticles are visible, but not much else.
As nice as the ACOGs are, I think that most are better served by conventional scopes.
I really like the Nightforce 1-4X, but think that you should also consider the SS 1-6X. Heck, if you have the money, the Swarovski 1-6X is killer.
Re: Help with choice of 1-4 optic for AR
Biased on this one but i'd go Elcan SpecterDr 1-4. The glass is amazing, and the 1x with red dot is very close to an aimpoint in terms of CQB acquisition. I was banging steel at 400 with ease using 4x yesterday.
Biased on this one but i'd go Elcan SpecterDr 1-4. The glass is amazing, and the 1x with red dot is very close to an aimpoint in terms of CQB acquisition. I was banging steel at 400 with ease using 4x yesterday.
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