I am new to F Class shooting and doing it just at a local club match at 500 yds. I am using an 6.5 Creedmoor in a AR platform, shooting off a bipod. This is really just practice for me and group shooting more than anything else. My question is should I try to make small adjustments for wind in scope (mil/mil)reticle or should I just hold low left if shooting slightly high and right? Seems like everytime I try to make a scope adjustment it bites me in the butt and moves to far the other way, I am not makeing large changes. Say 6" right, one click .100 mil left seems to end up 6" left 12" movement total. I do not think there is any problem with the scope, just bad wind calls on my part. I started holding off and I seem to be having more consistant hits. That are you guys doing or what would you recomend.
F T/R Competition hold off or adjust for wind
- Thread starter hdfoxguns
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Re: hold off or adjust for wind
Can you shoot small groups prone with the rifle at 100 yards reliably? Do you experience unexplained flyers? An unexplained shot 1" from the center of the main group is 5" from the group at 500 yards. If you chase this one (by trying to dial it away) you will throw yourself way out.
Don't chase the spotter. The really good shooters (I think) have a really firm confidence in their shooting ability; what I mean is they know for sure when they've made a bad shot and when they've missed a wind call. They also fight like demons for every point, every single shot. They also have taken the variables out by having the rifle completely supported and aimed by the bags / outriggers they use, allowing them to completely concentrate on wind. I suspect that the service rifle shooters have a wind regimen better suited to my shooting, which looks to me like it is: watch the wind in the spotting scope, time it, get back on the rifle and shoot.
a 10mph full value wind moves the bullet (guessing your ballistics) about 15" at 500 yards, so that means that each one mph CHANGE in full-value wind speed moves the bullet 1.5". I will dial elevation, then try to call wind. If I can see a pattern in the wind, I will dial it at the beginning of the string and try to ride it. From there I make horizontal adjustments with hold. Always know how much wind you have on your rifle. And don't chase the spotter.
Can you shoot small groups prone with the rifle at 100 yards reliably? Do you experience unexplained flyers? An unexplained shot 1" from the center of the main group is 5" from the group at 500 yards. If you chase this one (by trying to dial it away) you will throw yourself way out.
Don't chase the spotter. The really good shooters (I think) have a really firm confidence in their shooting ability; what I mean is they know for sure when they've made a bad shot and when they've missed a wind call. They also fight like demons for every point, every single shot. They also have taken the variables out by having the rifle completely supported and aimed by the bags / outriggers they use, allowing them to completely concentrate on wind. I suspect that the service rifle shooters have a wind regimen better suited to my shooting, which looks to me like it is: watch the wind in the spotting scope, time it, get back on the rifle and shoot.
a 10mph full value wind moves the bullet (guessing your ballistics) about 15" at 500 yards, so that means that each one mph CHANGE in full-value wind speed moves the bullet 1.5". I will dial elevation, then try to call wind. If I can see a pattern in the wind, I will dial it at the beginning of the string and try to ride it. From there I make horizontal adjustments with hold. Always know how much wind you have on your rifle. And don't chase the spotter.
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
There is an old saying in team shooting " one on the gun and one in your head" This means if your coach/spotter gives you a correction are you going to fudge it a bit more subconsiously.
Holding Off or Favoring takes practice. Without the finite aiming point you will not shoot the same groups favoring that you would clicking. Also as mentioned you need to be able to accurately call your shots and correlate that with the accuracy capability of your rifle. If a shot is at the extreame edge of your rifles group size for that load you don't need a change at all.
If your going to click you need to be able to get back on the gun and break the shot before the condition changes.
You stated two different reasons for shooting. Practice and Group size. For group size (accuracy/load testing) the best way to shoot IMO is to leave the sights alone and wait for the same condition to come back. Also unless your really good at using a bipod use bags. Practice for what is the next question?
There is an old saying in team shooting " one on the gun and one in your head" This means if your coach/spotter gives you a correction are you going to fudge it a bit more subconsiously.
Holding Off or Favoring takes practice. Without the finite aiming point you will not shoot the same groups favoring that you would clicking. Also as mentioned you need to be able to accurately call your shots and correlate that with the accuracy capability of your rifle. If a shot is at the extreame edge of your rifles group size for that load you don't need a change at all.
If your going to click you need to be able to get back on the gun and break the shot before the condition changes.
You stated two different reasons for shooting. Practice and Group size. For group size (accuracy/load testing) the best way to shoot IMO is to leave the sights alone and wait for the same condition to come back. Also unless your really good at using a bipod use bags. Practice for what is the next question?
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
I just got back from Camp Perry. On the first day, I had 6.5 moa dialed in and was still holding in the 7 ring when the wind picked up. If hadn't dialed in the 6.5, I would have been holding 2 targets to the left. For you guys that only hold and don't dial, have you ever shot where you needed over 10 moa of windage?
I just got back from Camp Perry. On the first day, I had 6.5 moa dialed in and was still holding in the 7 ring when the wind picked up. If hadn't dialed in the 6.5, I would have been holding 2 targets to the left. For you guys that only hold and don't dial, have you ever shot where you needed over 10 moa of windage?
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
A couple things...
One, I generally click and hold. I'll hold off usually as far as the 9 ring, then if I'm consistently that far out and conditions appear to be holding, I'll click back towards center. Out further than that... the features on the target face start getting kind of far apart for precision holding, in my opinion. The exception to the rule (there's always at least one...) is when mirage gets really bad and I can't hardly see the 10 ring, much less inside it.
If the winds are high enough, such as Ryan described... I'll crank on the estimated base windage needed to begin with, then hold/click as outlined above.
The 'one on the gun and one in your head' mantra doesn't, or *shouldn't*, apply to F-Class, as you are generally holding off (or clicking) in finer increments than the iron sights from which that saying originated. The shot may break a fuzz wide, or a little on the skinny side, of being a perfect 1.5 rings left hold for example, but thats inherent shooter error, and nothing to do with 'one on the gun and one in your head' - at least not in my experience.
Which brings me to the last point... remembering that despite all the 'stuff' that gets posted on Internet forums, none of these guns are truly 'lasers' - between the mechanics of the gun, the stacking of variances in the components that make up our ammo, the atmospheric distortion between the firing line and the target, and any fuzziness in your shot call... there is an inherent 'cone' out there where the shot may not be where you wanted it, but still legitimately where it should be, statistically speaking.
I hesitate to suggest that one should shoot a stray 9 (or worse) and *not* correct for it... but unless you *know* that wasn't shooter-induced, or otherwise within the 'real' (vs. Internet) grouping ability of your shooting platform (gun/ammo/sight/rest)... you run the very real probability of 'over-correcting', and chasing your tail all over the target, only randomly finding the center.
If your clicks are moving you way more (or less) than expected, and you have confidence in the mechanical equipment and the conditions are fairly stable... you may need to revisit what the real grouping ability of your system is - not one three or five shot 'lucky' group, but what you can hold together for 10-15-20 shots. It may be that you need to accept that your call area - the zone around where you believe you broke the shot - is simply bigger than you thought and super-fine hold-offs - or small clicks - ain't in the cards until you fix things, whether through more practice, better loading, or dedicated equipment.
Something to chew on, at any rate.
A couple things...
One, I generally click and hold. I'll hold off usually as far as the 9 ring, then if I'm consistently that far out and conditions appear to be holding, I'll click back towards center. Out further than that... the features on the target face start getting kind of far apart for precision holding, in my opinion. The exception to the rule (there's always at least one...) is when mirage gets really bad and I can't hardly see the 10 ring, much less inside it.
If the winds are high enough, such as Ryan described... I'll crank on the estimated base windage needed to begin with, then hold/click as outlined above.
The 'one on the gun and one in your head' mantra doesn't, or *shouldn't*, apply to F-Class, as you are generally holding off (or clicking) in finer increments than the iron sights from which that saying originated. The shot may break a fuzz wide, or a little on the skinny side, of being a perfect 1.5 rings left hold for example, but thats inherent shooter error, and nothing to do with 'one on the gun and one in your head' - at least not in my experience.
Which brings me to the last point... remembering that despite all the 'stuff' that gets posted on Internet forums, none of these guns are truly 'lasers' - between the mechanics of the gun, the stacking of variances in the components that make up our ammo, the atmospheric distortion between the firing line and the target, and any fuzziness in your shot call... there is an inherent 'cone' out there where the shot may not be where you wanted it, but still legitimately where it should be, statistically speaking.
I hesitate to suggest that one should shoot a stray 9 (or worse) and *not* correct for it... but unless you *know* that wasn't shooter-induced, or otherwise within the 'real' (vs. Internet) grouping ability of your shooting platform (gun/ammo/sight/rest)... you run the very real probability of 'over-correcting', and chasing your tail all over the target, only randomly finding the center.
If your clicks are moving you way more (or less) than expected, and you have confidence in the mechanical equipment and the conditions are fairly stable... you may need to revisit what the real grouping ability of your system is - not one three or five shot 'lucky' group, but what you can hold together for 10-15-20 shots. It may be that you need to accept that your call area - the zone around where you believe you broke the shot - is simply bigger than you thought and super-fine hold-offs - or small clicks - ain't in the cards until you fix things, whether through more practice, better loading, or dedicated equipment.
Something to chew on, at any rate.
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple things...
One, I generally click and hold. I'll hold off usually as far as the 9 ring, then if I'm consistently that far out and conditions appear to be holding, I'll click back towards center. Out further than that... the features on the target face start getting kind of far apart for precision holding, in my opinion. The exception to the rule (there's always at least one...) is when mirage gets really bad and I can't hardly see the 10 ring, much less inside it.
If the winds are high enough, such as Ryan described... I'll crank on the estimated base windage needed to begin with, then hold/click as outlined above.
The 'one on the gun and one in your head' mantra doesn't, or *shouldn't*, apply to F-Class, as you are generally holding off (or clicking) in finer increments than the iron sights from which that saying originated. The shot may break a fuzz wide, or a little on the skinny side, of being a perfect 1.5 rings left hold for example, but thats inherent shooter error, and nothing to do with 'one on the gun and one in your head' - at least not in my experience.
Which brings me to the last point... remembering that despite all the 'stuff' that gets posted on Internet forums, none of these guns are truly 'lasers' - between the mechanics of the gun, the stacking of variances in the components that make up our ammo, the atmospheric distortion between the firing line and the target, and any fuzziness in your shot call... there is an inherent 'cone' out there where the shot may not be where you wanted it, but still legitimately where it should be, statistically speaking.
I hesitate to suggest that one should shoot a stray 9 (or worse) and *not* correct for it... but unless you *know* that wasn't shooter-induced, or otherwise within the 'real' (vs. Internet) grouping ability of your shooting platform (gun/ammo/sight/rest)... you run the very real probability of 'over-correcting', and chasing your tail all over the target, only randomly finding the center.
If your clicks are moving you way more (or less) than expected, and you have confidence in the mechanical equipment and the conditions are fairly stable... you may need to revisit what the real grouping ability of your system is - not one three or five shot 'lucky' group, but what you can hold together for 10-15-20 shots. It may be that you need to accept that your call area - the zone around where you believe you broke the shot - is simply bigger than you thought and super-fine hold-offs - or small clicks - ain't in the cards until you fix things, whether through more practice, better loading, or dedicated equipment.
Something to chew on, at any rate.</div></div>
Great post!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple things...
One, I generally click and hold. I'll hold off usually as far as the 9 ring, then if I'm consistently that far out and conditions appear to be holding, I'll click back towards center. Out further than that... the features on the target face start getting kind of far apart for precision holding, in my opinion. The exception to the rule (there's always at least one...) is when mirage gets really bad and I can't hardly see the 10 ring, much less inside it.
If the winds are high enough, such as Ryan described... I'll crank on the estimated base windage needed to begin with, then hold/click as outlined above.
The 'one on the gun and one in your head' mantra doesn't, or *shouldn't*, apply to F-Class, as you are generally holding off (or clicking) in finer increments than the iron sights from which that saying originated. The shot may break a fuzz wide, or a little on the skinny side, of being a perfect 1.5 rings left hold for example, but thats inherent shooter error, and nothing to do with 'one on the gun and one in your head' - at least not in my experience.
Which brings me to the last point... remembering that despite all the 'stuff' that gets posted on Internet forums, none of these guns are truly 'lasers' - between the mechanics of the gun, the stacking of variances in the components that make up our ammo, the atmospheric distortion between the firing line and the target, and any fuzziness in your shot call... there is an inherent 'cone' out there where the shot may not be where you wanted it, but still legitimately where it should be, statistically speaking.
I hesitate to suggest that one should shoot a stray 9 (or worse) and *not* correct for it... but unless you *know* that wasn't shooter-induced, or otherwise within the 'real' (vs. Internet) grouping ability of your shooting platform (gun/ammo/sight/rest)... you run the very real probability of 'over-correcting', and chasing your tail all over the target, only randomly finding the center.
If your clicks are moving you way more (or less) than expected, and you have confidence in the mechanical equipment and the conditions are fairly stable... you may need to revisit what the real grouping ability of your system is - not one three or five shot 'lucky' group, but what you can hold together for 10-15-20 shots. It may be that you need to accept that your call area - the zone around where you believe you broke the shot - is simply bigger than you thought and super-fine hold-offs - or small clicks - ain't in the cards until you fix things, whether through more practice, better loading, or dedicated equipment.
Something to chew on, at any rate.</div></div>
Great post!
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
First rule, don't make rules.
First rule, don't make rules.
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
I do both and probably always will, different wind situations call for different ways of doing the same thing.
I do both and probably always will, different wind situations call for different ways of doing the same thing.
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
Using irons I click, always. It's just more accurate, period. I also really work at picture memory to be able to hold elevation. This effectively makes the target bigger, allowing for some wind error without consequence. To hold elevation on a scorable target, hand loading is also essential, not just to get a low ES and SD but to produce a velocity which allows zeroing to X-ring within parameters of adjustment increments on the sight. I have 1/4 MOA sight adjustments but sometimes wish for something finer.
With scope, I will usually click but since clicks on scope are in opposite direction of my Service Rifle, I click for prevailing wind and thereafter favor which prevents confusion. I record the initial no wind zero so if there's an interruption to prevailing wind or if the wind changes direction I can reset without loosing track of things. I try to keep it as simple as possible to allow concentration on perfection of my position to be able to maintain recoil resistance shot to shot. This is the most important thing to having bullets go where aimed.
As alluded to by another poster, an inexperienced shooter or a shooter who comes to the long line with underdeveloped basic marksmanship skills may not be able to recognize the source of his shot errors. He may blame bad shots on wind when wind may have had little to do with the bad shot. I advise all aspiring LR shooters to practice at 100 yards with the goal of shooting to zero dispersion. If a shooter cannot get close to zero dispersion with irons or scope at the short line, LR will not be a productive experience. This sort of shooter should work on perfecting his position before attempting LR.
One more thing, most folks, at least most folks I have run into, just do not understand the sort of work it takes to rebuild the position, making it identical shot to shot. The time and discipline it takes to become a really good LR shooter is more than what most folks consider as being fun. It's just too much work. These folks are a little miffed when they discover all the money they put into their equipment is not a substitute for the basic marksmanship they did not think they needed.
Using irons I click, always. It's just more accurate, period. I also really work at picture memory to be able to hold elevation. This effectively makes the target bigger, allowing for some wind error without consequence. To hold elevation on a scorable target, hand loading is also essential, not just to get a low ES and SD but to produce a velocity which allows zeroing to X-ring within parameters of adjustment increments on the sight. I have 1/4 MOA sight adjustments but sometimes wish for something finer.
With scope, I will usually click but since clicks on scope are in opposite direction of my Service Rifle, I click for prevailing wind and thereafter favor which prevents confusion. I record the initial no wind zero so if there's an interruption to prevailing wind or if the wind changes direction I can reset without loosing track of things. I try to keep it as simple as possible to allow concentration on perfection of my position to be able to maintain recoil resistance shot to shot. This is the most important thing to having bullets go where aimed.
As alluded to by another poster, an inexperienced shooter or a shooter who comes to the long line with underdeveloped basic marksmanship skills may not be able to recognize the source of his shot errors. He may blame bad shots on wind when wind may have had little to do with the bad shot. I advise all aspiring LR shooters to practice at 100 yards with the goal of shooting to zero dispersion. If a shooter cannot get close to zero dispersion with irons or scope at the short line, LR will not be a productive experience. This sort of shooter should work on perfecting his position before attempting LR.
One more thing, most folks, at least most folks I have run into, just do not understand the sort of work it takes to rebuild the position, making it identical shot to shot. The time and discipline it takes to become a really good LR shooter is more than what most folks consider as being fun. It's just too much work. These folks are a little miffed when they discover all the money they put into their equipment is not a substitute for the basic marksmanship they did not think they needed.
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
At 500 yards, I would use a no wind zero on the scope and hold off. At that distance, unless the wind is really howling, you probably won't be holding off the target.
At 500 yards, I would use a no wind zero on the scope and hold off. At that distance, unless the wind is really howling, you probably won't be holding off the target.
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
I am with Sterling on what he said.
I am with Sterling on what he said.
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
I wanted to see how this one shaped up a little.
Camp Perry was a great example, i did both.
On at least 2 occasions I had 6.5 to over 7 MOA dialed in, I don't see me ever holding that much.
Sometimes you could watch the mirage and see it was pretty steady and click for the variations if it looked like the spotter was moving over slight variation in wind at that speed are really hard to see.
When it got variable but still brisk I just got eaten up. No experience with that much change and not sure of the values so I don't know if I did it right or not. In one case I read the letoff, held to the outside of the 9 and shot an 8 out the other side. Only once did I hold as far over as the 8 ring, and I still ended up with an 8 or a 9 on the other side. We had gruesome wind in that relay I managed to shoot a 180. I didn't like it but I didn't feel too bad either, especially after I scored the next relay.
I shot a 180 and a 186 in my worst two, and a 193 and a 190 in my two best matches, and in both cases missed the shoot-off by 3 points. The 193 was with about 7 MOA dialed on, the 190 started with 4.5 or so. In that match on the 3rd shot I dropped an 8 on a letoff or a quarter change that I didn't see, shot a second one to be sure
, took off a full minute and shot a third one. (pits said it was about a 2" group) At that point I'd dropped 7 points in 5 shots. I got in the scope for about 2 minutes and didn't see anything changing, so I dialed another 1.5 off and let one fly, got a 10. Then I fired for effect and finished with an X. I cheated off inside the 10 ring some, but mostly I just pumped them in as fast as the pit service could keep up. I dropped 3 more points and two were 9s at five and 2 o'clock, and I know I broke the one shot low right.
The match that I shot a 180 I put on 4.5 and shot three sighters, all Xs, only found it once again in the next 20 shots. There were several of us who got bitten by that snake.
What I did worked OK for me, but I didn't bring home any hardware either. I think if you are having to deal with rapidly changing conditions that you may want to dial an initial setting and then try to hold for the changes, until something looks permanent, if you have a pretty steady set of conditions, then you can dial it all.
I wanted to see how this one shaped up a little.
Camp Perry was a great example, i did both.
On at least 2 occasions I had 6.5 to over 7 MOA dialed in, I don't see me ever holding that much.
Sometimes you could watch the mirage and see it was pretty steady and click for the variations if it looked like the spotter was moving over slight variation in wind at that speed are really hard to see.
When it got variable but still brisk I just got eaten up. No experience with that much change and not sure of the values so I don't know if I did it right or not. In one case I read the letoff, held to the outside of the 9 and shot an 8 out the other side. Only once did I hold as far over as the 8 ring, and I still ended up with an 8 or a 9 on the other side. We had gruesome wind in that relay I managed to shoot a 180. I didn't like it but I didn't feel too bad either, especially after I scored the next relay.
I shot a 180 and a 186 in my worst two, and a 193 and a 190 in my two best matches, and in both cases missed the shoot-off by 3 points. The 193 was with about 7 MOA dialed on, the 190 started with 4.5 or so. In that match on the 3rd shot I dropped an 8 on a letoff or a quarter change that I didn't see, shot a second one to be sure
, took off a full minute and shot a third one. (pits said it was about a 2" group) At that point I'd dropped 7 points in 5 shots. I got in the scope for about 2 minutes and didn't see anything changing, so I dialed another 1.5 off and let one fly, got a 10. Then I fired for effect and finished with an X. I cheated off inside the 10 ring some, but mostly I just pumped them in as fast as the pit service could keep up. I dropped 3 more points and two were 9s at five and 2 o'clock, and I know I broke the one shot low right. The match that I shot a 180 I put on 4.5 and shot three sighters, all Xs, only found it once again in the next 20 shots. There were several of us who got bitten by that snake.
What I did worked OK for me, but I didn't bring home any hardware either. I think if you are having to deal with rapidly changing conditions that you may want to dial an initial setting and then try to hold for the changes, until something looks permanent, if you have a pretty steady set of conditions, then you can dial it all.
Re: hold off or adjust for wind
Camp Perry can be very humbling! If you want to shoot again in some of thee same conditions, come with us in Nov to Blakely, Ga for the 6X1000 weekend they are going to have!
Camp Perry can be very humbling! If you want to shoot again in some of thee same conditions, come with us in Nov to Blakely, Ga for the 6X1000 weekend they are going to have!
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