Hornady Concentricity Gauge

[Tactical30]

I searched this but didnt come up with much.

I bought this tool about a week ago to start checking runout.
I just got into reloading about 1 1/2yrs ago.

I use Redding (non-bushing) dies for my .223Rem and 6.5 Grendel loads. I tumble the brass well so it is clean all around- Lube casings with Imperial lube, Resize/Deprime, Re-tumble to remove lube, Clean the Primer Pockets, De-burr the Flash hole (if needed), Trim (if needed),Chamfer/Deburr,Check Brass OAL then Prime. I also run a bronze brush thru the necks once before and after sizing to make sure there is no small debris anywhere.

I notice when I do not do this bronze brush cleaning step the runout is around .006" - .008" but when I clean them with the bronze brush it drops down to .002" - .003".

Im wondering what is your insight on the Hornady Concentricity Gauge and what is most amount of runout to have before accuracy falls?

I am mostly getting .002" of runout on my reloads.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

I think the general figure is, anywhere up to .004" is acceptable for hunting and short range work,
long range wants to be .002" and under.
(obviously the aim of the game is to get zero runout of course, but these are ballpark standards)

I also use the hornady tool, I like it a lot, my ammo usually runs between .001-.002" runout, with the occasional .004" max.
The tool is great for straightening out the odd 'off centre' round that slips out my quality control!

I'm suprised that using the bronze brush makes THAT much difference for you..
What seater do you use?

 

[jdel]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the runout actually 1/2 the amount shown on the dial? I too have the Hornady tool and it works great. I was surprised how much more run out factory match ammo had compared to my reloads.

 

[vman]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

Looking to get this tool in the near future... sounds pretty usefull to me

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shepheard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the runout actually 1/2 the amount shown on the dial? . </div></div>

Not that I'm aware of. Measured runout at any point on the neck or berring surface of the bullet is full value.

I have also found that runout can be reduced by turning the round 1/4 turns while while seating.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

No, And yes. if you spin the round on the tool, the needle shows you highest to lowest measurement. TOTAL indicated runout. Full value, whatever you want to call it.

Whenever I talk about runout, I always refer to TIR as this is the figure shown on the dials, and avoids confusion IMHO.
If my needle moves .004".... I say I got .004 total runout on that round

yes it's half one way, and half the other, making .002" off centre, but I still call it .004" Tir.

However you interprit the Reading on the dial, keep that needle between two little lines and you will be fine

 

[Seawalker]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

Just wondering if you think straightening the round has an adverse effect on neck tension? Sure seems like it would oblong the neck tension on the round and make it more prone to release the bullet with unequal pressure as well as making it easier to knock the round back off center.

Reckon what I'm asking is, "Does correcting one flaw possibly create another one which tends to cancel the benefit?"

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seawalker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just wondering if you think straightening the round has an adverse effect on neck tension? Sure seems like it would oblong the neck tension on the round and make it more prone to release the bullet with unequal pressure as well as making it easier to knock the round back off center.

Reckon what I'm asking is, "Does correcting one flaw possibly create another one which tends to cancel the benefit?" </div></div>

short answer.. No.

I researched the exact same thought before I bought mine, and found somebody who had done a comparison test with straight rounds, and rounds purposely bent out of shape, and straightened again.

After multiple groups he could find no difference in group size or POI.

Personally, I once seperated a batch of 50 rounds, into ones I had straightened, and ones I didn't need to..
And they all shot exactly the same as far as my abilities could show.
They all printed about .5moa @300yrds.. Which is average group size for that load for me.
Also I didn't notice any difference over the chrono.

After all... Your only tweaking rounds straight a few thou, your not bending them .020" or anything crazy!!

 

[308saiga]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

Hello,

I am also new to reloading, I have been doing it for the last 2-3 years. I have some questions if I may, what is the advantage of using this tool? I reload for bolt action rifles, my OAL on the round for my 308 is 2.950, in other words my bullet kisses the lands of the rifle. When I pull the trigger and it goes bang why would one care about the concentric?

Also by cleaning out the neck with a wire/brass brush how would this affect the roundness of the neck? Are you using a 30 cal brush in the 223? Test it for me please, take a shell that you have just finished (without running the brush through), put it in the tool, write it down the figures. Then run your brush through and the put it on the tool and post back the figures, it should not change....

Also one has to remember that no 2 shells are identical...

Thanks

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308saiga</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello,

I am also new to reloading, I have been doing it for the last 2-3 years. I have some questions if I may, what is the advantage of using this tool? I reload for bolt action rifles, my OAL on the round for my 308 is 2.085, in other words my bullet kisses the lands of the rifle. When I pull the trigger and it goes bang why would one care about the concentric?

Also by cleaning out the neck with a wire/brass brush how would this affect the roundness of the neck? Are you using a 30 cal brush in the 223? Test it for me please,
take a shell that you have just finished (without running the brush through), put it in the tool, write it down the figures. Then run your brush through and the put it on the tool and post back the figures, it should not change....

Also one has to remember that no 2 shells are identical...

Thanks

</div></div>

I use 30 cal brush in 308.. The OP would be using the brush that fits his calibre

and running a brush thru the neck after case prep helps remove any little bits of brass left in there after trimming/chamfer etc, and also any tumbling media dust etc.. Can help with more uniform seating.

As far as straightening the rounds.. Tresmon has written a series of great articles at the top of this forum, running through reloading steps, how and why we do what we do.

It's up to you as the individual to decide how much of an effect these have on your own shot groups and shooting ability

basically tho, we want straight (concentric) rounds, so bullets enter the rifling straight.
How much this effects you personally, depends on how straight your ammo is to begin with, and again, your ability to shoot.

If your only shooting/hunting @200 yrds.. Then your not going to see the benefits compared to trying to print small groups at long range.

Check out Tresmon's articles.. They are a very good read!

 

[308saiga]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I use 30 cal brush in 308.. The OP would be using the brush that fits his calibre

and running a brush thru the neck after case prep helps remove any little bits of brass left in there after trimming/chamfer etc, and also any tumbling media dust etc.. Can help with more uniform seating.

As far as straightening the rounds.. Tresmon has written a series of great articles at the top of this forum, running through reloading steps, how and why we do what we do.

It's up to you as the individual to decide how much of an effect these have on your own shot groups and shooting ability

basically tho, we want straight (concentric) rounds, so bullets enter the rifling straight.
How much this effects you personally, depends on how straight your ammo is to begin with, and again, your ability to shoot.

<span style="font-weight: bold">If your only shooting/hunting @200 yrds.. Then your not going to see the benefits compared to trying to print small groups at long range.</span>

Check out Tresmon's articles.. They are a very good read!

</div></div>

I kind of figure that he was using a 223 brush, but if this changes the diameter of the neck then he may want to consider changing the brass casings (he states it changes when he passes the brush through the case opening).

As far as accuracy, this is why I stated that I make sure that the bullet is kissing the lands, once you fire the round and it is going down the pipe the bullet is straight, it has no choice, if it is not going down the barrel straight after the first 2"s then you may have a problem with a worn barrel..

Thanks for the explanation......

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

Let me try to draw a visual image. A bullet loaded with a TIR greater than .000" will not be concentric to the centerline of the bore when chambered. While .000 is the goal, there are acceptable amouts of runout depending on your disipline. Aslo mentioned above. (If you dont turn necks, you should be taking your measurements from just behind the bullet shoulder) When the round is fired it will enter the rifling off center causing abnormal deformation and imparting yaw or a slight wobble. The RMP's tend to take care of most of this but not all. You will not notice this as much at closer ranges as was stated before but you will definetly see the results magnified past 300 yards. With all of the work that the great smiths of this site and others put into the actions, bolts, and barrels, why would you want to feed your rifle crooked ammo? It kinda defeats the purpose of having an accurate rifle.

 

[aqualung]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308saiga</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I use 30 cal brush in 308.. The OP would be using the brush that fits his calibre

and running a brush thru the neck after case prep helps remove any little bits of brass left in there after trimming/chamfer etc, and also any tumbling media dust etc.. Can help with more uniform seating.

As far as straightening the rounds.. Tresmon has written a series of great articles at the top of this forum, running through reloading steps, how and why we do what we do.

It's up to you as the individual to decide how much of an effect these have on your own shot groups and shooting ability

basically tho, we want straight (concentric) rounds, so bullets enter the rifling straight.
How much this effects you personally, depends on how straight your ammo is to begin with, and again, your ability to shoot.

<span style="font-weight: bold">If your only shooting/hunting @200 yrds.. Then your not going to see the benefits compared to trying to print small groups at long range.</span>

Check out Tresmon's articles.. They are a very good read!

</div></div>

I kind of figure that he was using a 223 brush, but if this changes the diameter of the neck then he may want to consider changing the brass casings (<span style="color: #FF0000">he states it changes when he passes the brush through the case opening)</span>.

As far as accuracy, this is why I stated that I make sure that the bullet is kissing the lands, once you fire the round and it is going down the pipe the bullet is straight, it has no choice, if it is not going down the barrel straight after the first 2"s then you may have a problem with a worn barrel..

Thanks for the explanation......
</div></div>

Actually the op states that he gets a different value for the RUNOUT after he seats the boolits.

Forgive me, I'm not being a smartarse, but do you actually know what the RUNOUT is??

I'm not being funny, but you state that you haven't been reloading long.

From my mate, who is doing very well in 1000yd benchrest and F-class at the moment. "There is no just kissing the lands, it's either jammed, or jumping", So your earlier statement about your boolits just kissing the rifling makes me wonder...

You don't state your experience, so it's kind of difficult to judge if you really have a handle on this whole runout thing.

Let us know, and then we can explain...

Neil

 

[308saiga]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


As far as straightening the rounds.. Tresmon has written a series of great articles at the top of this forum, running through reloading steps, how and why we do what we do.


Check out Tresmon's articles.. They are a very good read!

</div></div>

A picture is worth a 1K words.. I see what you guys are getting at. It was difficult to understand until I looked at lesson 5 and the tool in use. I find it amazing that if I have my OAL kissing the lands it still would go in crooked. If I had only 1 grove then I would understand but most rifles have a minimum of 3 grooves....

Thanks

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

A factory rifle especialy a Rem has a large chamber, neck, and a deep throat to accept all .308 factory ammunition. Unless you are going through every bullet and measuring bearing surface, then sorting them for like measurements. Taking a bullet from a desired group and useing it to find your length from your bolt face to your lands. Kissing or just touching the lands every time is a crap shoot at best. That type of feel just cant be had through a bolt handle. On the other hand you can feel a jammed bullet.

Dont get yourself too caught up in all of the stuff that detracts from the joy of being on the range behind the trigger.
Do good brass prep, try to load your ammo as straight as you can without going nuts, load, shoot, and have a good time.

I'll never forget what my dad use to say whenever I got really OCD on stuff. "Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff", words to live by.

Good luck

 

[308saiga]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paduan Learner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Actually the op states that he gets a different value for the RUNOUT after he seats the boolits.

Forgive me, I'm not being a smartarse, but do you actually know what the RUNOUT is??

I'm not being funny, but you state that you haven't been reloading long.

From my mate, who is doing very well in 1000yd benchrest and F-class at the moment. <span style="font-weight: bold">"There is no just kissing the lands, it's either jammed, or jumping"</span>, So your earlier statement about your boolits just kissing the rifling makes me wonder...

You don't state your experience, so it's kind of difficult to judge if you really have a handle on this whole runout thing.

Let us know, and then we can explain...

Neil

</div></div>

Neil,

I am not trying to be an ass either, but when you say boolits do you mean bullets?

As far as runouts go, I guess I did not. Now I think and believe that runout is actually canted seated bullets.

As far as kissing the lands, yes kissing the lands or grooves, how you might ask? We need to open another thread on this for me to explain, I did not understand jumping.

Thanks

 

[308saiga]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Kissing or just touching the lands every time is a crap shoot at best.</span> That type of feel just cant be had through a bolt handle. On the other hand you can feel a jammed bullet.

</div></div>

I think we are getting away from the original posters question. Before saying that something is crap you ought to try it first, you will be surprised how more accurate the rifle is....

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308saiga</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSMKissing or touching the lands is a <span style="font-weight: bold">crap shoot </span>at best.[/b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That type of feel just cant be had through a bolt handle. On the other hand you can feel a jammed bullet.

</div></div>

Before saying that something is crap you ought to try it first, you will be surprised how more accurate the rifle is....

</div></div>

Instead of getting pissy with you, I'll ask you to re-read my post. Notice how I didn't say it was crap, I said crap shoot, that means iffy at best. Sometimes it will work sometimes it wont. Consistancy is King in this game.

 

[308saiga]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

I am not pissed at you or anyone, my apologies if I came across like that. Your statement is true if you do not consistently use the same brass. I use Winchester or Lapua only and my consistency is very accurate.. As I stated you have to figure out where your lands start before you go about doing this, but this is a whole other can of worms and does not fall here on this thread....

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

308saiga..

Boolits - bullets.
Crap shoot - 'pot luck/inconsistant'
runout - the amount something is 'crooked' from the centreline, this can be case neck runout, bullet runout, case runout (banana shaped case) etc etc.

Yes you can load a round in your chamber, that you believe is 'kissing' the lands, but your bullet may be 'crooked' and touching one side not the other.

Yes the bullet can and will have unequal forces upon it as it is squeezed down the barrel crooked, although HOW much depends on how crooked it was in the first place, and barrel condition etc etc.

The OP wasn't implying he was trying to shape any brass necks with his brush, he simply passing a brush thru the neck to help clean any debris.

Some guys even polish the inside necks with wire wool wrapped around a brush.

 

[308saiga]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

Dude we are way past this......

 

[Tactical30]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

Wow, that was about 15 or so un-needed posts.

Anyhow........what was my post about?

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, And yes. if you spin the round on the tool, the needle shows you highest to lowest measurement. TOTAL indicated runout. Full value, whatever you want to call it.

Whenever I talk about runout, I always refer to TIR as this is the figure shown on the dials, and avoids confusion IMHO.
If my needle moves .004".... I say I got .004 total runout on that round

yes it's half one way, and half the other, making .002" off centre, but I still call it .004" Tir.

However you interprit the Reading on the dial, keep that needle between two little lines and you will be fine

</div></div>

That's how I state it as well, add the high to the low and that's my TIR.

I bought a Bersin gage, which does Large Rifle/Magnums (7 RemMag on one side and 30'06, on the other...it does more) and uses a Swiss made gage that has a resolution of 4/10,000" with ample room between hash marks, for an even more precise measurement.

I was thinking of getting a Hornady 'fixer' but got this off of Ebay for $104 shipped and so I couldn't pass it up.

I still need the bodies for 223/308 and possibly 338LM or 22-250 down the road, to cover my bases. While not cheap, it's 100% repeatable and pretty easy to use. My gage will work in all bodies.

I'd love to cross-check the measurements you guys are getting against this gage. It's pretty slick.

Chris

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

Wow, good deal chris! About the same price as the hornady!

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Hornady Concentricity Gauge

I've got the Casemaster from RCBS. With the exception of turning in V-blocks instead of bearings they are petty simular. It takes a little practice as far as where to position your finger on the case body and the amount of pressure needed t keep everything level. It works for me and does other useful tasks as well like neck wall measurements and an inspection arm to check for case head / wall cracks.