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Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks, Union assholes. </div></div>
Why isn't Hostess getting the same bail-out other unions have i.e. GM/etc.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks, Union assholes. </div></div>
Why isn't Hostess getting the same bail-out other unions have i.e. GM/etc.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
18,500 people will be getting a 99 week (likely more soon) All-Expenses paid vacation. Would like to see a map of were ALL the Hostess facilities are located. Twinkies seem to last forever, maybe the ChiComs will buy the Rights and ship them back over.
18,500 people will be getting a 99 week (likely more soon) All-Expenses paid vacation. Would like to see a map of were ALL the Hostess facilities are located. Twinkies seem to last forever, maybe the ChiComs will buy the Rights and ship them back over.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://hostessbrands.info/
Thanks, Union assholes. </div></div>
That is an easy statement to make but it is a two way street. There is a continuing trend of leverage buy out firms using bankruptcy to strong arm their employees. Then use the media to blame the employees when they don't accept their draconian terms. All the while they rake in 100's of millions on fees and quick sales.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://hostessbrands.info/
Thanks, Union assholes. </div></div>
That is an easy statement to make but it is a two way street. There is a continuing trend of leverage buy out firms using bankruptcy to strong arm their employees. Then use the media to blame the employees when they don't accept their draconian terms. All the while they rake in 100's of millions on fees and quick sales.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
Good for them. 18,500 people and their families learned a lesson about unions. Sad that so many will lose jobs, but I'm glad Hostess didn't cave to them.
Good for them. 18,500 people and their families learned a lesson about unions. Sad that so many will lose jobs, but I'm glad Hostess didn't cave to them.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks, Union assholes. </div></div>
Why isn't Hostess getting the same bail-out other unions have i.e. GM/etc. </div></div>
I have an answer for you, and it's hardly PC.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks, Union assholes. </div></div>
Why isn't Hostess getting the same bail-out other unions have i.e. GM/etc. </div></div>
I have an answer for you, and it's hardly PC.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
Hostess has been in and out of bankruptcy for the past decade.
The Bakery union tanked the company, even the Teamsters agreed that concessions have to be made after they saw the company's books.
I haven't seen the books but if the teamsters agree with management I'm pretty confident it's legit.
We have the same bakery union at my facility and the guy running it is a POS.
The brands will be sold and produced elsewhere, by other bakers. There is a lot of capacity available so another company will pick the rights and formulas for a song.
The facilities will most likely be mothballed. There is little chance another investment group will bother since the last two failed. It's possible the newer equipment will find its way to other bakeries but most will sit in abandoned buildings until the zombie apocalypse.
Labor unions used to have a place, but now with all the labor and safety laws that the States and Feds have they are largely protectors of employees that would normally be fired for incompetence. Oh and they are political arms too. But I will not expound on that aspect.
It's too bad, they had a facility right down the road. We're hiring though so I guess we'll have a shot at some knowledgeable employees. That's a positive.
Hostess has been in and out of bankruptcy for the past decade.
The Bakery union tanked the company, even the Teamsters agreed that concessions have to be made after they saw the company's books.
I haven't seen the books but if the teamsters agree with management I'm pretty confident it's legit.
We have the same bakery union at my facility and the guy running it is a POS.
The brands will be sold and produced elsewhere, by other bakers. There is a lot of capacity available so another company will pick the rights and formulas for a song.
The facilities will most likely be mothballed. There is little chance another investment group will bother since the last two failed. It's possible the newer equipment will find its way to other bakeries but most will sit in abandoned buildings until the zombie apocalypse.
Labor unions used to have a place, but now with all the labor and safety laws that the States and Feds have they are largely protectors of employees that would normally be fired for incompetence. Oh and they are political arms too. But I will not expound on that aspect.
It's too bad, they had a facility right down the road. We're hiring though so I guess we'll have a shot at some knowledgeable employees. That's a positive.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is an easy statement to make but it is a two way street. There is a continuing trend of leverage buy out firms using bankruptcy to strong arm their employees. Then use the media to blame the employees when they don't accept their draconian terms. All the while they rake in 100's of millions on fees and quick sales.</div></div>
This is a VERY accurate statement.
While its always easy to blame "unions", I'd be curious to see how much was spent during their bankruptcy for "management retention bonuses" while employees were asked to take cut after cut after cut.
Collective bargaining still has a place (in some industries) IMO, with self-help the only recourse organized employees have against unilateral cuts to their compensation package and work rules while Harvard MBA "managers" financially rape and pillage the company to line their own pockets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is an easy statement to make but it is a two way street. There is a continuing trend of leverage buy out firms using bankruptcy to strong arm their employees. Then use the media to blame the employees when they don't accept their draconian terms. All the while they rake in 100's of millions on fees and quick sales.</div></div>
This is a VERY accurate statement.
While its always easy to blame "unions", I'd be curious to see how much was spent during their bankruptcy for "management retention bonuses" while employees were asked to take cut after cut after cut.
Collective bargaining still has a place (in some industries) IMO, with self-help the only recourse organized employees have against unilateral cuts to their compensation package and work rules while Harvard MBA "managers" financially rape and pillage the company to line their own pockets.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good for them. 18,500 people and their families learned a lesson about unions. Sad that so many will lose jobs, but I'm glad Hostess didn't cave to them. </div></div>
Well, in this case, Hostess couldn't cave in, they had no money. 18k+ out of work and the unions will go on and do it again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good for them. 18,500 people and their families learned a lesson about unions. Sad that so many will lose jobs, but I'm glad Hostess didn't cave to them. </div></div>
Well, in this case, Hostess couldn't cave in, they had no money. 18k+ out of work and the unions will go on and do it again.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is an easy statement to make but it is a two way street. There is a continuing trend of leverage buy out firms using bankruptcy to strong arm their employees. Then use the media to blame the employees when they don't accept their draconian terms. All the while they rake in 100's of millions on fees and quick sales.</div></div>
This is a VERY accurate statement.
While its always easy to blame "unions", I'd be curious to see how much was spent during their bankruptcy for "management retention bonuses" while employees were asked to take cut after cut after cut.
Collective bargaining still has a place (in some industries) IMO, with self-help the only recourse organized employees have against unilateral cuts to their compensation package and work rules while Harvard MBA "managers" financially rape and pillage the company to line their own pockets. </div></div>
LOL, "management retention bonuses" don't close multi billion dollar companies.
They do however, make great soundbites for people who don't know better.
Sort of like the 1% or taxing the RIIICH... or greedy CEOs.
Sorry, just so much info showing the BCTGM was the problem here, including the Teamsters agreeing they were the problem.
I guess that's why it's easy to blame the union here... it was their fault.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is an easy statement to make but it is a two way street. There is a continuing trend of leverage buy out firms using bankruptcy to strong arm their employees. Then use the media to blame the employees when they don't accept their draconian terms. All the while they rake in 100's of millions on fees and quick sales.</div></div>
This is a VERY accurate statement.
While its always easy to blame "unions", I'd be curious to see how much was spent during their bankruptcy for "management retention bonuses" while employees were asked to take cut after cut after cut.
Collective bargaining still has a place (in some industries) IMO, with self-help the only recourse organized employees have against unilateral cuts to their compensation package and work rules while Harvard MBA "managers" financially rape and pillage the company to line their own pockets. </div></div>
LOL, "management retention bonuses" don't close multi billion dollar companies.
They do however, make great soundbites for people who don't know better.
Sort of like the 1% or taxing the RIIICH... or greedy CEOs.
Sorry, just so much info showing the BCTGM was the problem here, including the Teamsters agreeing they were the problem.
I guess that's why it's easy to blame the union here... it was their fault.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inogame</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, "management retention bonuses" don't close multi billion dollar companies.
They do however, make great soundbites for people who don't know better.</div></div>
You're exactly right, they don't close multi-billion dollar companies.
But what management bonuses given in 1113 *do* accomplish, however, is galvanizing your labor force against management, which makes it MUCH more difficult for management to do their job.
If managers are asking labor for an 8% cut, those same managers getting bonuses creates an us vs. them mentality that flies in the face of "best interest of the company".
In short, there's lots of managers in business, but very few leaders.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, just so much info showing the BCTGM was the problem here, including the Teamsters agreeing they were the problem.
I guess that's why it's easy to blame the union here... it was their fault. </div></div>
Don't get me wrong, I think in this particular case the striking union thought management was bluffing with their Ch7 threat and management proved them wrong. I also think its shitty that 5000 people's actions can put 18,500 people out of work.
I'm a former union volunteer, and my wife is a union staffer. That said, I presently work for a small business owner who is VERY anti-union.
Companies get the unions they deserve, the unions that their management style earns them.
There's a reason why companies like Southwest Airlines have good relationships with their unions, while so many others struggle...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inogame</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, "management retention bonuses" don't close multi billion dollar companies.
They do however, make great soundbites for people who don't know better.</div></div>
You're exactly right, they don't close multi-billion dollar companies.
But what management bonuses given in 1113 *do* accomplish, however, is galvanizing your labor force against management, which makes it MUCH more difficult for management to do their job.
If managers are asking labor for an 8% cut, those same managers getting bonuses creates an us vs. them mentality that flies in the face of "best interest of the company".
In short, there's lots of managers in business, but very few leaders.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, just so much info showing the BCTGM was the problem here, including the Teamsters agreeing they were the problem.
I guess that's why it's easy to blame the union here... it was their fault. </div></div>
Don't get me wrong, I think in this particular case the striking union thought management was bluffing with their Ch7 threat and management proved them wrong. I also think its shitty that 5000 people's actions can put 18,500 people out of work.
I'm a former union volunteer, and my wife is a union staffer. That said, I presently work for a small business owner who is VERY anti-union.
Companies get the unions they deserve, the unions that their management style earns them.
There's a reason why companies like Southwest Airlines have good relationships with their unions, while so many others struggle...
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
Hostess opened all their books to the Teamsters and BCTGM, they knew everything.
Also, non-union exempts took pay cuts years ago with no increases since.
That's reality.
Good old John Howard thought he knew better... now a bunch of his guys are outta work and the teamsters will not have his back again.
Hostess opened all their books to the Teamsters and BCTGM, they knew everything.
Also, non-union exempts took pay cuts years ago with no increases since.
That's reality.
Good old John Howard thought he knew better... now a bunch of his guys are outta work and the teamsters will not have his back again.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society.
F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
Well said...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
Well said...
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
^^This.
'and people wonder why jobs are leaving the US...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
^^This.
'and people wonder why jobs are leaving the US...
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
The thing about parasites is that they generally do not remain successful when they kill the host... Or in this case; Hostess.
The thing about parasites is that they generally do not remain successful when they kill the host... Or in this case; Hostess.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
^^This.
'and people wonder why jobs are leaving the US... </div></div>
My sentiments exactly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
^^This.
'and people wonder why jobs are leaving the US... </div></div>
My sentiments exactly.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Infidel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
^^This.
'and people wonder why jobs are leaving the US... </div></div>
My sentiments exactly. </div></div>
Unions are not even a third of the reasons why companies are moving jobs offshore. Most of the emerging countries have no regulation or care about what they do to the environment, how dangerous something is, or the conditions they impose upon their workers. Executives don't care about the rank and file and feel they are doing their fiduciary duty to make the company more profitable. The easiest way to do that is reduce the cost they spend on people, which in almost every company is the largest expense.
You can blame unions till your hearts content but the real reason is nothing more then simple greed. This extends to all parties, the workers, the executives, and investors.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Infidel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
^^This.
'and people wonder why jobs are leaving the US... </div></div>
My sentiments exactly. </div></div>
Unions are not even a third of the reasons why companies are moving jobs offshore. Most of the emerging countries have no regulation or care about what they do to the environment, how dangerous something is, or the conditions they impose upon their workers. Executives don't care about the rank and file and feel they are doing their fiduciary duty to make the company more profitable. The easiest way to do that is reduce the cost they spend on people, which in almost every company is the largest expense.
You can blame unions till your hearts content but the real reason is nothing more then simple greed. This extends to all parties, the workers, the executives, and investors.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
What were the terms of the contract that the Baker's union turned down? Certainly, if the Teamsters were willing to play, it couldn't have been too terrible.
Today, I did figure out that the snack-food portion of my prepping has been terribly neglected.
What were the terms of the contract that the Baker's union turned down? Certainly, if the Teamsters were willing to play, it couldn't have been too terrible.
Today, I did figure out that the snack-food portion of my prepping has been terribly neglected.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You can blame unions till your hearts content but the real reason is nothing more then simple greed. This extends to all parties, the workers, the executives, and investors.</div></div>
Yes, simple greed on the part of the unions. Take auto manufacturing plants for example. The most successful are non-union. BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Hyundai. The list goes on. BTW, should we talk about how the unions prevented Boeing from moving to South Carolina because of their greed and incessant strikes. Nothing good comes from unions except to line its member's pockets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You can blame unions till your hearts content but the real reason is nothing more then simple greed. This extends to all parties, the workers, the executives, and investors.</div></div>
Yes, simple greed on the part of the unions. Take auto manufacturing plants for example. The most successful are non-union. BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Hyundai. The list goes on. BTW, should we talk about how the unions prevented Boeing from moving to South Carolina because of their greed and incessant strikes. Nothing good comes from unions except to line its member's pockets.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://hostessbrands.info/
Thanks, Union assholes. </div></div>
That is an easy statement to make but it is a two way street. There is a continuing trend of leverage buy out firms using bankruptcy to strong arm their employees. Then use the media to blame the employees when they don't accept their draconian terms. All the while they rake in 100's of millions on fees and quick sales.
</div></div>
Worth the read:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles
Should have shut the doors years ago....
Good luck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://hostessbrands.info/
Thanks, Union assholes. </div></div>
That is an easy statement to make but it is a two way street. There is a continuing trend of leverage buy out firms using bankruptcy to strong arm their employees. Then use the media to blame the employees when they don't accept their draconian terms. All the while they rake in 100's of millions on fees and quick sales.
</div></div>
Worth the read:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles
Should have shut the doors years ago....
Good luck
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Infidel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
^^This.
'and people wonder why jobs are leaving the US... </div></div>
My sentiments exactly. </div></div>
Unions are not even a third of the reasons why companies are moving jobs offshore. Most of the emerging countries have no regulation or care about what they do to the environment, how dangerous something is, or the conditions they impose upon their workers. Executives don't care about the rank and file and feel they are doing their fiduciary duty to make the company more profitable. <span style="color: #FF0000"> The easiest way to do that is reduce the cost they spend on people, which in almost every company is the largest expense. </span></div></div>
You just made the case against your point. Why would I as a CEO who's already at a gross disadvantage with all the fed/state regulations and taxes want to hire a bunch of leaches who are going to futher bleed me dry at every turn? I started my buisness to make money for myself not to support a slugs who are going to fight me at every turn. Tack on Obamacare and the experation of the tax cuts in a month and you're forced to move out of the country. Hostess should have moved out of the country years ago. Look at all the shit Boeing caught by simply trying to open up a new plant (more jobs that didn't get created due to union thuggery).
Boy, there's no mystery as to who are and are-not union members in this thread.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Infidel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">F*&k Unions across the board. They are a cancer on our economic society. </div></div>
^^This.
'and people wonder why jobs are leaving the US... </div></div>
My sentiments exactly. </div></div>
Unions are not even a third of the reasons why companies are moving jobs offshore. Most of the emerging countries have no regulation or care about what they do to the environment, how dangerous something is, or the conditions they impose upon their workers. Executives don't care about the rank and file and feel they are doing their fiduciary duty to make the company more profitable. <span style="color: #FF0000"> The easiest way to do that is reduce the cost they spend on people, which in almost every company is the largest expense. </span></div></div>
You just made the case against your point. Why would I as a CEO who's already at a gross disadvantage with all the fed/state regulations and taxes want to hire a bunch of leaches who are going to futher bleed me dry at every turn? I started my buisness to make money for myself not to support a slugs who are going to fight me at every turn. Tack on Obamacare and the experation of the tax cuts in a month and you're forced to move out of the country. Hostess should have moved out of the country years ago. Look at all the shit Boeing caught by simply trying to open up a new plant (more jobs that didn't get created due to union thuggery).
Boy, there's no mystery as to who are and are-not union members in this thread.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We need a national right to work law in order to break the unions.
Anyone would be crazy to open a factory in a pro-union state. </div></div>
Amen. Unions wouldn't exist if it werent for forced service.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We need a national right to work law in order to break the unions.
Anyone would be crazy to open a factory in a pro-union state. </div></div>
Amen. Unions wouldn't exist if it werent for forced service.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
I am not seeing how I made the point against myself. I am stating the reasons for jobs leaving is the cost of doing business in this country. That cost has a great deal to do with the labor, not just the cost of the salaries but all of the other things that go along with it. Such as taxes, healthcare, unemployment insurance, and the threat of being sued by anyone over anything. These all add up.
Also I was operating under the assumption that most people are aware that the majority of labor in this country are <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> in unions. So blaming them for companies moving jobs offshore instead of looking at the bigger picture is silly. Are they part of the issue, at some levels yes, are they the biggest reason, not even close.
I am in IT, pretty much the least unionized segment of workers in this country. We get the benefit of watching companies manipulate the job market to suppress our wages. They then enacted legislation that makes it easier for them to import inferior workers. In case you were wondering it goes like this. They put an add out for an experience engineer with a specified skill set and number of years experience. Then then post this job at 50% of the going market rate. Obviously people are not running out to take a 50% pay cut so the company then gets to say "we don't have enough trained engineers". This allows them to get a visa to bring someone over who has to work for whatever they give them, and this person doesn't get to switch jobs, they are completely beholden to the company.
Unions may not be the answer but neither is unrestrained corporate rule. There needs to be strong advocates for the rights of workers AND the rights of companies. Only by working together and appreciating what the other brings to the table can we construct a framework that will allow us to fix many of problems facing us.
I am not seeing how I made the point against myself. I am stating the reasons for jobs leaving is the cost of doing business in this country. That cost has a great deal to do with the labor, not just the cost of the salaries but all of the other things that go along with it. Such as taxes, healthcare, unemployment insurance, and the threat of being sued by anyone over anything. These all add up.
Also I was operating under the assumption that most people are aware that the majority of labor in this country are <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> in unions. So blaming them for companies moving jobs offshore instead of looking at the bigger picture is silly. Are they part of the issue, at some levels yes, are they the biggest reason, not even close.
I am in IT, pretty much the least unionized segment of workers in this country. We get the benefit of watching companies manipulate the job market to suppress our wages. They then enacted legislation that makes it easier for them to import inferior workers. In case you were wondering it goes like this. They put an add out for an experience engineer with a specified skill set and number of years experience. Then then post this job at 50% of the going market rate. Obviously people are not running out to take a 50% pay cut so the company then gets to say "we don't have enough trained engineers". This allows them to get a visa to bring someone over who has to work for whatever they give them, and this person doesn't get to switch jobs, they are completely beholden to the company.
Unions may not be the answer but neither is unrestrained corporate rule. There needs to be strong advocates for the rights of workers AND the rights of companies. Only by working together and appreciating what the other brings to the table can we construct a framework that will allow us to fix many of problems facing us.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
I don't trust the media, but it was my understanding that the 8% paycut was not to pad the pockets of executives, but to cover the cost of Obamacare plus the tax hikes that Obama has promised on "big business." Since the unions are hellbent on voting for the Democrats I say F&%k em and let em starve to death. The sad part is that Obama has the middle class over a barrel, we either become slaves & continue to work and pay rising taxes to feed the other half of the country that won't work or we say to hell with it and the U.S. turns into a third world country. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
I don't trust the media, but it was my understanding that the 8% paycut was not to pad the pockets of executives, but to cover the cost of Obamacare plus the tax hikes that Obama has promised on "big business." Since the unions are hellbent on voting for the Democrats I say F&%k em and let em starve to death. The sad part is that Obama has the middle class over a barrel, we either become slaves & continue to work and pay rising taxes to feed the other half of the country that won't work or we say to hell with it and the U.S. turns into a third world country. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Unions may not be the answer but neither is unrestrained corporate rule. There needs to be strong advocates for the rights of workers AND the rights of companies. Only by working together and appreciating what the other brings to the table can we construct a framework that will allow us to fix many of problems facing us.</div></div>
There is no "unconstrained corporate rule" anymore. The slaughterhouses closed over a century ago. Again, research the companies that do not have union labor and you'll find those employees are very happy. And guess what? The companies take great care of them despite not having a union gun to their head.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Unions may not be the answer but neither is unrestrained corporate rule. There needs to be strong advocates for the rights of workers AND the rights of companies. Only by working together and appreciating what the other brings to the table can we construct a framework that will allow us to fix many of problems facing us.</div></div>
There is no "unconstrained corporate rule" anymore. The slaughterhouses closed over a century ago. Again, research the companies that do not have union labor and you'll find those employees are very happy. And guess what? The companies take great care of them despite not having a union gun to their head.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
DY - you did it again. It is easy to do and out of self interest we ALL do it. Think of it from a pure market perspective - regardless of the market (and in simple terms) the price of a given good or commodity should be where the X and Y axis meet.
When say they import inferior workers at 50% of wage scale - you need to look at it from a pure market standpoint. Companies (regardless of headquartered nation) compete for resources and capital on a world scale, thus where possible, the market needs to be viewed on a world scale as well. When you say inferior - maybe. Maybe not. That is a question initially for management. The product of that persons work will ultimately be judged by the market (and if it is truly inferior - may create opportunities within the market place). Regardless, that person is willing to do the work for that 'price'.
Labor in general in America has gotten too expensive to produce goods here. Many of the industry sectors that have seen outsourcing are heavily unionized. What we have seen on a large scale is the outsourcing of industry sectors that are low skill labor intensive, and we have also been seeing an increasing push down on skilled wage rates due to an influx of foreign 'inferior' skilled workers as well.
Now we understand the reasons behind NAFTA / CAFTA / High Tech Visa Programs and a score of other policy - right? In basic terms - I agree there needs to be an advocate for labor. However that advocate needs to be smart (compassionate) enough to know when they are negotiating against the best interests of their client (the worker).
So back to Hostess - for those that are interested in the link I posted - in 2009 the unions took a haircut in an effort to save the company. However - it was a dogshit company, and the rise in commodities prices, as well as the consolidation in the baking industry - specifically through Mexican giant Grupo Bimbo - put the hurt on already slowing sales. This company should have been unwound and chopped up long ago when the assets likely had more value. As for compromise now, the elephants in the room - aside from dwindling sales and queasy investors - was the nearly $2B in unfunded pension liabilities to the various union members. The unions dug their heals in and said we already gave enough the last time around. The current ownership pleaded with the creditors, the creditors looked at the cash flows and stuck a finger in the air - then gave the thumbs down. Simple.
Good luck
DY - you did it again. It is easy to do and out of self interest we ALL do it. Think of it from a pure market perspective - regardless of the market (and in simple terms) the price of a given good or commodity should be where the X and Y axis meet.
When say they import inferior workers at 50% of wage scale - you need to look at it from a pure market standpoint. Companies (regardless of headquartered nation) compete for resources and capital on a world scale, thus where possible, the market needs to be viewed on a world scale as well. When you say inferior - maybe. Maybe not. That is a question initially for management. The product of that persons work will ultimately be judged by the market (and if it is truly inferior - may create opportunities within the market place). Regardless, that person is willing to do the work for that 'price'.
Labor in general in America has gotten too expensive to produce goods here. Many of the industry sectors that have seen outsourcing are heavily unionized. What we have seen on a large scale is the outsourcing of industry sectors that are low skill labor intensive, and we have also been seeing an increasing push down on skilled wage rates due to an influx of foreign 'inferior' skilled workers as well.
Now we understand the reasons behind NAFTA / CAFTA / High Tech Visa Programs and a score of other policy - right? In basic terms - I agree there needs to be an advocate for labor. However that advocate needs to be smart (compassionate) enough to know when they are negotiating against the best interests of their client (the worker).
So back to Hostess - for those that are interested in the link I posted - in 2009 the unions took a haircut in an effort to save the company. However - it was a dogshit company, and the rise in commodities prices, as well as the consolidation in the baking industry - specifically through Mexican giant Grupo Bimbo - put the hurt on already slowing sales. This company should have been unwound and chopped up long ago when the assets likely had more value. As for compromise now, the elephants in the room - aside from dwindling sales and queasy investors - was the nearly $2B in unfunded pension liabilities to the various union members. The unions dug their heals in and said we already gave enough the last time around. The current ownership pleaded with the creditors, the creditors looked at the cash flows and stuck a finger in the air - then gave the thumbs down. Simple.
Good luck
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
You guys should calm down and thank a union worker for weekends and an eight hour work shift. Plumbers Local Union #8 here baby!!!
SPM
You guys should calm down and thank a union worker for weekends and an eight hour work shift. Plumbers Local Union #8 here baby!!!
SPM
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys should calm down and thank a union worker for weekends and an eight hour work shift. Plumbers Local Union #8 here baby!!!
SPM </div></div>
If it wasn't for our union in the government sector, we'd be getting dirt pay for a job we are grossly under paid for as it is. Plus we'd be at the mercy of every hair that crawled up our elected official's ass. I know there are unions that cause problems, but not in this line of work, whether it's Teamsters or Law Enforcement Labor Services, they do a lot of good around here, not enough in my opinion.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys should calm down and thank a union worker for weekends and an eight hour work shift. Plumbers Local Union #8 here baby!!!
SPM </div></div>
If it wasn't for our union in the government sector, we'd be getting dirt pay for a job we are grossly under paid for as it is. Plus we'd be at the mercy of every hair that crawled up our elected official's ass. I know there are unions that cause problems, but not in this line of work, whether it's Teamsters or Law Enforcement Labor Services, they do a lot of good around here, not enough in my opinion.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
Oh for fucking fuck sakes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Fresh-Boxes-10...=item3ccc80e6f9
Oh for fucking fuck sakes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Fresh-Boxes-10...=item3ccc80e6f9
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NorthernBorn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh for fucking fuck sakes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Fresh-Boxes-10...=item3ccc80e6f9 </div></div> if someone actually goes for this our country is in even worse shape than i thought. we are doomed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NorthernBorn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh for fucking fuck sakes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Fresh-Boxes-10...=item3ccc80e6f9 </div></div> if someone actually goes for this our country is in even worse shape than i thought. we are doomed.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
One thing I would like to point out is while everyone is blaming unions for pricing themselves and the company out of work, they should have first hand experience of it rather than all hearsay. I worked as a union plumber under my uncle for almost four years and I learned that many people such as the people on this board that are anti union don't even give union companies a chance. I seen the bids of a non union contractor higher than a non union contractor quite often. The funny part is the employee gets about $12 an hour and no benefits but a lot of people are quick to judge unions and their price. Same goes for road work and most of the time a non union company gets the job they end up with employees filing a complaint for not getting prevailing wage according to the law. It's fucking greed that is ruining most of these companies, not the unions. Btw, I have been union and am currently non union so I have first hand experience in the subject.
One thing I would like to point out is while everyone is blaming unions for pricing themselves and the company out of work, they should have first hand experience of it rather than all hearsay. I worked as a union plumber under my uncle for almost four years and I learned that many people such as the people on this board that are anti union don't even give union companies a chance. I seen the bids of a non union contractor higher than a non union contractor quite often. The funny part is the employee gets about $12 an hour and no benefits but a lot of people are quick to judge unions and their price. Same goes for road work and most of the time a non union company gets the job they end up with employees filing a complaint for not getting prevailing wage according to the law. It's fucking greed that is ruining most of these companies, not the unions. Btw, I have been union and am currently non union so I have first hand experience in the subject.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bradu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I would like to point out is while everyone is blaming unions for pricing themselves and the company out of work, they should have first hand experience of it rather than all hearsay. I worked as a union plumber under my uncle for almost four years and I learned that many people such as the people on this board that are anti union don't even give union companies a chance. I seen the bids of a non union contractor higher than a non union contractor quite often. The funny part is the employee gets about $12 an hour and no benefits but a lot of people are quick to judge unions and their price. Same goes for road work and most of the time a non union company gets the job they end up with employees filing a complaint for not getting prevailing wage according to the law. It's fucking greed that is ruining most of these companies, not the unions. Btw, I have been union and am currently non union so I have first hand experience in the subject.</div></div>
I, for one, have EXTENSIVE experience with the unions. In fact, it has divided my family to the point of not talking to each other. Growing up I heard story after story of union people getting away with A LOT of BS. As a child and teen I drank the Kool Aid of union benefits, stood and picketed at walkouts and yelled at scabs however I eventually learned that union and business mixes like oil and water. They're nothing more than a legal mafia.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bradu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I would like to point out is while everyone is blaming unions for pricing themselves and the company out of work, they should have first hand experience of it rather than all hearsay. I worked as a union plumber under my uncle for almost four years and I learned that many people such as the people on this board that are anti union don't even give union companies a chance. I seen the bids of a non union contractor higher than a non union contractor quite often. The funny part is the employee gets about $12 an hour and no benefits but a lot of people are quick to judge unions and their price. Same goes for road work and most of the time a non union company gets the job they end up with employees filing a complaint for not getting prevailing wage according to the law. It's fucking greed that is ruining most of these companies, not the unions. Btw, I have been union and am currently non union so I have first hand experience in the subject.</div></div>
I, for one, have EXTENSIVE experience with the unions. In fact, it has divided my family to the point of not talking to each other. Growing up I heard story after story of union people getting away with A LOT of BS. As a child and teen I drank the Kool Aid of union benefits, stood and picketed at walkouts and yelled at scabs however I eventually learned that union and business mixes like oil and water. They're nothing more than a legal mafia.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
I agree unions definitely have problems but some people with no experience with them are quick to judge. i have a mother in law that is bad about saying a bunch of shit about unions and have absolutely no clue how they work. All she knows is they are overpaid. I got out of it because there is very little work in the area I'm in due to no state funding and union thinks raising prices will help the guys that are only working 4-500 hours a year. We both know that won't help anything.
I agree unions definitely have problems but some people with no experience with them are quick to judge. i have a mother in law that is bad about saying a bunch of shit about unions and have absolutely no clue how they work. All she knows is they are overpaid. I got out of it because there is very little work in the area I'm in due to no state funding and union thinks raising prices will help the guys that are only working 4-500 hours a year. We both know that won't help anything.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">You can blame unions till your hearts content but the real reason is nothing more then simple greed. This extends to all parties, the workers, the executives, and investors.</span> </div></div>
Agree 100%
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">You can blame unions till your hearts content but the real reason is nothing more then simple greed. This extends to all parties, the workers, the executives, and investors.</span> </div></div>
Agree 100%
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
I've personally been in two different unions and now have worked for companies that employ several.
They do a great job moving most production plants to automation. There are several companies who make billions building robots to do the work of people because the labor rate became inflated to the point that customized robotics designed for a single task was cheaper.
I do thank unions every day for the leaps in automation over the past 30 years.
They also keep the best and the brightest from making the wage they are worth, on the backs of those who shouldn't have jobs in the first place. In fact, those that consistently game the rigged work rules that a company cannot discipline because they exploit every possible loophole in the system. Loopholes the union refuses to close in negotiations...
I've seen hundreds of thousands of dollars go to lawyers to defend grievances that are too ridiculous to be true.
I've witnessed a second shift union rep sabotaging equipment and product so the shutdown would get everyone overtime.
You name it, I've seen it.. all in the name of the greedy owner who doesn't need the money.
Yeah... I thank unions all the time. Especially as my company sells to an Equity Bank because the 2nd generation owner has run out of cash to keep it going.
Can't wait until I hear them hope for the next investor to save them next time we run out of cash... that investor that won't come.
It's cool, I'll go to the next company and see it all again... until they are all gone.
The thing unions make sure you don't know is if you are truly good at your work you'll get paid and its an owner/manager's best interest to keep you happy and healthy.
If people knew that unions would be gone. Which is why we always have to hear how much the union does for everyone.
Though most of the time the everyone are the worst employees at the company.
Sure there are some trade unions that offer training and advancement to members. This can be useful and worth the dues.
However, seniority rules and labor negotiations are a crock. Been a crock for decades. Best things they do is keep the senior employed and the newest/youngest laid off. That is until the lights get turned off. Then we all go home.
Damn, I've turned jaded as hell... I guess I've seen too many screwed on both sides guys in the union who didn't have enough time in and guys in management trying to make it work.
Sure some owners/Managers can be assholes but the truth is people like that don't last very long. Performance wins and dudes like that never last. They eventually learn there needs to be balance... on both sides.
I've personally been in two different unions and now have worked for companies that employ several.
They do a great job moving most production plants to automation. There are several companies who make billions building robots to do the work of people because the labor rate became inflated to the point that customized robotics designed for a single task was cheaper.
I do thank unions every day for the leaps in automation over the past 30 years.
They also keep the best and the brightest from making the wage they are worth, on the backs of those who shouldn't have jobs in the first place. In fact, those that consistently game the rigged work rules that a company cannot discipline because they exploit every possible loophole in the system. Loopholes the union refuses to close in negotiations...
I've seen hundreds of thousands of dollars go to lawyers to defend grievances that are too ridiculous to be true.
I've witnessed a second shift union rep sabotaging equipment and product so the shutdown would get everyone overtime.
You name it, I've seen it.. all in the name of the greedy owner who doesn't need the money.
Yeah... I thank unions all the time. Especially as my company sells to an Equity Bank because the 2nd generation owner has run out of cash to keep it going.
Can't wait until I hear them hope for the next investor to save them next time we run out of cash... that investor that won't come.
It's cool, I'll go to the next company and see it all again... until they are all gone.
The thing unions make sure you don't know is if you are truly good at your work you'll get paid and its an owner/manager's best interest to keep you happy and healthy.
If people knew that unions would be gone. Which is why we always have to hear how much the union does for everyone.
Though most of the time the everyone are the worst employees at the company.
Sure there are some trade unions that offer training and advancement to members. This can be useful and worth the dues.
However, seniority rules and labor negotiations are a crock. Been a crock for decades. Best things they do is keep the senior employed and the newest/youngest laid off. That is until the lights get turned off. Then we all go home.
Damn, I've turned jaded as hell... I guess I've seen too many screwed on both sides guys in the union who didn't have enough time in and guys in management trying to make it work.
Sure some owners/Managers can be assholes but the truth is people like that don't last very long. Performance wins and dudes like that never last. They eventually learn there needs to be balance... on both sides.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
Unions = the weak seeking strength in numbers.
The irony is this, the union bosses will still get paid while the union members will see their lives go down the drain or at least to the level the market is willing to pay for their services.
Unions = the weak seeking strength in numbers.
The irony is this, the union bosses will still get paid while the union members will see their lives go down the drain or at least to the level the market is willing to pay for their services.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys should calm down and thank a union worker for weekends and an eight hour work shift. Plumbers Local Union #8 here baby!!!
SPM</div></div>
Who gets those? I worked 16 hours today. Usually it's 14 or 15 hours from the time I leave the office to the time I get back. Not working tomorrow, but sure as heck been working every Saturday for the last 3 months. My cousin worked in the GM plant in OKC, making $35 a hour plus a boatload of benefits for snapping in plastic parts. IMO that is ridiculous. I had no sympathy for him and the union when they shut it down.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys should calm down and thank a union worker for weekends and an eight hour work shift. Plumbers Local Union #8 here baby!!!
SPM</div></div>
Who gets those? I worked 16 hours today. Usually it's 14 or 15 hours from the time I leave the office to the time I get back. Not working tomorrow, but sure as heck been working every Saturday for the last 3 months. My cousin worked in the GM plant in OKC, making $35 a hour plus a boatload of benefits for snapping in plastic parts. IMO that is ridiculous. I had no sympathy for him and the union when they shut it down.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
HOLY SHIT.
I don't think I've ever had a thread that I, my humble self, have created that went on this long.
Not to mention, with TWO moderators looking/posting in it and they're not here to ban my ass.
Can someone please photoshop me a badge of honor or something?
But on a more serious note, I feel for the worker in this situation, however those workers have the ability to elect into law the ability to get rid of those unions.
And I'm sure if all or most of those 18.5k souls stood up to their union to keep their jobs, something positive may have come of this.
I'm sure the fuckin asshole in charge of the union still has a job while almost 19k people are out of work. There's a special place in hell for people like that.
I apologize, to all you good guys on here that are part of unions, but they really are a thing of the past. Like before labor laws and OSHA and such...
HOLY SHIT.
I don't think I've ever had a thread that I, my humble self, have created that went on this long.
Not to mention, with TWO moderators looking/posting in it and they're not here to ban my ass.
Can someone please photoshop me a badge of honor or something?
But on a more serious note, I feel for the worker in this situation, however those workers have the ability to elect into law the ability to get rid of those unions.
And I'm sure if all or most of those 18.5k souls stood up to their union to keep their jobs, something positive may have come of this.
I'm sure the fuckin asshole in charge of the union still has a job while almost 19k people are out of work. There's a special place in hell for people like that.
I apologize, to all you good guys on here that are part of unions, but they really are a thing of the past. Like before labor laws and OSHA and such...
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<- limited experience
When I was younger I worked for a non union mechanical contractor and occasionally we'd find ourselves on site (doing an exceptionally crappy job that was contracted for a reason) with union guys doing some else. What I was always in awe of is that they had limitations on what they would do - the welders only welded, the fitters only fit. If the welder didn't like the fit they would not touch the section. If the fitter had left the area and that section was critical to progress? Too bad. Things came to a stop until the fitter returned. The other thing, those guys were like jail house lawyers with respect to labor law. Lastly, it seemed to me that the 'White Hats' kind of got the idiosyncrasies of it all and left them alone.
Now days I am privy to some labor negotiations with two different unions. In general I would say the workers themselves know the score, and try hard. They are often not in agreement with the union reps that negotiate on their behalf, but they for whatever reason, they refuse to tell the union that they'd like to part company. Also, it seems to me that folks that negotiate on behalf of the unions are completely detached from those they claim to represent. The contradiction of union rhetoric has not been lost on me - that management is greedy and doesn't care about the line guy and his family; when in reality it is the folks that negotiate on their behalf that wouldn't piss on said line worker or their family if they were on fire - unless they were going to make a buck or two off the deal.
Unions had a place, now they are a actually a problem for both the employer and the employee. BTW, Andy Stern ( head of SEIU) made 481 visits to the White House in 2009. They were also his top fund raiser - $28 million, and the Occupy Movement was largely a front for union agitation.
Good luck
<- limited experience
When I was younger I worked for a non union mechanical contractor and occasionally we'd find ourselves on site (doing an exceptionally crappy job that was contracted for a reason) with union guys doing some else. What I was always in awe of is that they had limitations on what they would do - the welders only welded, the fitters only fit. If the welder didn't like the fit they would not touch the section. If the fitter had left the area and that section was critical to progress? Too bad. Things came to a stop until the fitter returned. The other thing, those guys were like jail house lawyers with respect to labor law. Lastly, it seemed to me that the 'White Hats' kind of got the idiosyncrasies of it all and left them alone.
Now days I am privy to some labor negotiations with two different unions. In general I would say the workers themselves know the score, and try hard. They are often not in agreement with the union reps that negotiate on their behalf, but they for whatever reason, they refuse to tell the union that they'd like to part company. Also, it seems to me that folks that negotiate on behalf of the unions are completely detached from those they claim to represent. The contradiction of union rhetoric has not been lost on me - that management is greedy and doesn't care about the line guy and his family; when in reality it is the folks that negotiate on their behalf that wouldn't piss on said line worker or their family if they were on fire - unless they were going to make a buck or two off the deal.
Unions had a place, now they are a actually a problem for both the employer and the employee. BTW, Andy Stern ( head of SEIU) made 481 visits to the White House in 2009. They were also his top fund raiser - $28 million, and the Occupy Movement was largely a front for union agitation.
Good luck
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
Unions are ridiculous. Did you read the story about the power company from Alabama that sent crews to New York & New Jersey to help out after the hurricane? They got turned away from New Jersey because they were not union. All the people suffering and those union assholes had the nerve to do that. Legalized mafia.
Unions are ridiculous. Did you read the story about the power company from Alabama that sent crews to New York & New Jersey to help out after the hurricane? They got turned away from New Jersey because they were not union. All the people suffering and those union assholes had the nerve to do that. Legalized mafia.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys should calm down and thank a union worker for weekends and an eight hour work shift. Plumbers Local Union #8 here baby!!!
SPM </div></div>
Please...
Unions caused the imbecilic mindset that all the problems of the world can be solved with a 40 hour work week!
Tell that to a farmer.
I work when the work is there and I don't finish until it's done. I built my business with the mindset of, "Why can't I do this now?" It has worked well for me.
So while the self evaluated "work" of union sloths (and entirely too many government employees) serve only to propagate their own bank accounts, lavish benefits and absurd penisons, those who must pay for them are criticized as "greedy", "The Rich", or "The 1%"!
My grandparents worked in mills in Massachusetts and New Hampshire in the early 20th century. Often working six 12 hour days a week for little pay, no OSHA, Worker's Comp and damn sure no pension. Unions played a role in improving the lives of workers and and their families.
Their time has passed however and frauds like Trumka, making millions of dollars a year pretending to be a "Working man" are evidence that most of the union people out there are indifferent to the source of their income, too wedded to the tit that feeds them to admit it or are too stupid.
So it's either greed, delusion or stupidity that drives this. It damn sure isn't for protecting the rights of workers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys should calm down and thank a union worker for weekends and an eight hour work shift. Plumbers Local Union #8 here baby!!!
SPM </div></div>
Please...
Unions caused the imbecilic mindset that all the problems of the world can be solved with a 40 hour work week!
Tell that to a farmer.
I work when the work is there and I don't finish until it's done. I built my business with the mindset of, "Why can't I do this now?" It has worked well for me.
So while the self evaluated "work" of union sloths (and entirely too many government employees) serve only to propagate their own bank accounts, lavish benefits and absurd penisons, those who must pay for them are criticized as "greedy", "The Rich", or "The 1%"!
My grandparents worked in mills in Massachusetts and New Hampshire in the early 20th century. Often working six 12 hour days a week for little pay, no OSHA, Worker's Comp and damn sure no pension. Unions played a role in improving the lives of workers and and their families.
Their time has passed however and frauds like Trumka, making millions of dollars a year pretending to be a "Working man" are evidence that most of the union people out there are indifferent to the source of their income, too wedded to the tit that feeds them to admit it or are too stupid.
So it's either greed, delusion or stupidity that drives this. It damn sure isn't for protecting the rights of workers.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
The terms were given to the employees like this:
Take an 8% paycut this year only. Receive in return.....3% increases for 2013,2014, &2015. Also 25% share of the company was offered in an ESOP. The killing part is this, they agreed initially to this contract. They were working. Day before the election, they strike. They thought they could call Rayburn's bluff.....I guess he showed them.
The terms were given to the employees like this:
Take an 8% paycut this year only. Receive in return.....3% increases for 2013,2014, &2015. Also 25% share of the company was offered in an ESOP. The killing part is this, they agreed initially to this contract. They were working. Day before the election, they strike. They thought they could call Rayburn's bluff.....I guess he showed them.
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
I so love the irony of this:
The union gets the workers to strike for higher(insert whatever)
The strike closes down the company
The workers are now unemployed
Many support jobs are lost
WE are out some damn good fat boy snacks(our favorites)
The union leadership is still fat and happy sucking up the money from dues to pay themselves
To all Hostess employees that were involved in the strike:
Enjoy being out of work SUCKERS!
I so love the irony of this:
The union gets the workers to strike for higher(insert whatever)
The strike closes down the company
The workers are now unemployed
Many support jobs are lost
WE are out some damn good fat boy snacks(our favorites)
The union leadership is still fat and happy sucking up the money from dues to pay themselves
To all Hostess employees that were involved in the strike:
Enjoy being out of work SUCKERS!
Re: Hostess is closing. RIP Twinkies...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I so love the irony of this:
The union gets the workers to strike for higher(insert whatever)
The strike closes down the company
The workers are now unemployed
Many support jobs are lost
WE are out some damn good fat boy snacks(our favorites)
The union leadership is still fat and happy sucking up the money from dues to pay themselves
To all Hostess employees that were involved in the strike:
Enjoy being out of work SUCKERS! </div></div>
The truly sad part is it wasn't all the unions, it was one union. About a 3rd of the workforce gets the company shut down and everyone out of work.
I can't stress this enough.. the teamsters were on board with the deal. The Teamsters! I mean say what you want but they are not pushovers.
BCTGM probably wanted to send a message to any other bakery company that is trying to renegotiate. So they sacrifice 6K members for the rest, that's what unions do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I so love the irony of this:
The union gets the workers to strike for higher(insert whatever)
The strike closes down the company
The workers are now unemployed
Many support jobs are lost
WE are out some damn good fat boy snacks(our favorites)
The union leadership is still fat and happy sucking up the money from dues to pay themselves
To all Hostess employees that were involved in the strike:
Enjoy being out of work SUCKERS! </div></div>
The truly sad part is it wasn't all the unions, it was one union. About a 3rd of the workforce gets the company shut down and everyone out of work.
I can't stress this enough.. the teamsters were on board with the deal. The Teamsters! I mean say what you want but they are not pushovers.
BCTGM probably wanted to send a message to any other bakery company that is trying to renegotiate. So they sacrifice 6K members for the rest, that's what unions do.
