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How are you guys dropping your powder?

#51
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In competition, I have only seen 1MOA honestly achieved twice in two years at 200yd; and this with optics and supported rifles.
Greg </div></div>

Greg, were you being serious here or did I miss something?

okie</div></div>

What Greg is saying is that he has only witnessed two perfect scores at the Odessa match in the past 2 years. To shoot a perfect score there you have to put 10 rounds in a 2 inch group on 4 seperate targets for a total of 40 rounds in a 2 inch group. I shoot there and I have came to the conclusion that to accomplish that feat you need to have the equipment capable of better than 1 moa and good range conditions along with your own abilities. Alot of shooters have the ability to shoot 5 shot groups well. To put 40 of them down range on 4 different targets is outstanding shooting. IMHO
Back on the topic.... I am one of those fanatical handloaders that try everything possible to take as many variables out of my match shooting as possible. That leaves only the shooters error as the final variable as to if I win or lose.
I weigh every case, bullet etc. I drop the powder about 2 tenths low and use an electric trickler to get it up to the final charge on a pact digital scale. I am never satisfied with a load and am in constant test mode...always looking for Elvis...
 
#52
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

Cleaning the FV200 target at 200yd requires forty rounds distributed across four V-targets, the 5-ring of which is 2" in diameter. I know, I designed the target and I print all of them. The first May match this year, two 'cleans' were shot, one using a full blown 6BR rifle and the other a Savage custom using 6BRX. I can remember this for certain. I'm not so sure, but it may have also been done once or twice before, but no more than that.

There is no lack of witnesses, all the Odessa FV200 shooters can attest to these achievements. So far, I believe only 'Open' class shooters have managed the feat.

I equate shooting 1 MOA with putting <span style="font-style: italic">all</span> rounds inside a 1MOA target through an entire comp. This may seem a bit hard to believe, but that's the charm of the FV200 event, and it keeps on bringin' 'em back. You think it's easy, you're welcome to try, and we'll be happy to take your $10 donation for the opportunity. I guarantee there are few more enjoyable and challenging events that I know about.

I ream flash holes, weigh charges, Semi-F/L resize, and seat about .010" to .020" off the lands, depending on the rifle. More than that I'm not gonna do. I run in the lower third of the pack, and each match, I gain a few points. I suppose putting another hour or two into the handloading effort could garner me maybe 5 more points, but honestly, I like it where I am. My interest is in supporting the match, not winning it. It a recreation, not an obsession.

It's kinda like why I buy some beers at the VFW on Tuesday afternoons. I'm not there for the beer, the beer is just the rental I pay to sit on the barstool. I'm really there for the cameraderie and the conversation. It's the same thing for me with the ammo and the FV200 stuff. If winning was something I could not survive without, I'da been dead long ago.

Greg
 
#53
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

I was there at Odessa for one of those perfect scores, last July if I remember correctly. I believe it was a panda action with a 30x fixed power Leupold in a bench rest stock of some sort. I put a couple rounds through the gun after the comp and it had a like 1/2 oz trigger, breath on it and it would go off.

Me personally I've done decent at the matches, maybe someday when I fly back for a visit to the family I'll swing by for a comp. I think I shot a 180 something last time, not bad for shooting a mix of factory and handloads, did better with the home rolled ammo than the BH.
 
#54
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ratbert is right about needing a consistent boom at distance. However I wonder if some of the other practices...like weighing cases, flash hole uniforming, testing primers/powder consistency, seating depths and other tricks might do more than .1 grains of powder toward gaining that consistent boom.</div></div>

Agreed, I was speaking only to the relationship of barrel harmonics tuning to short vs long range accuracy; I did not mean to imply that I thought measuring powder charges to ever more precise levels was the end-all of consistency.

That said, the thing that actually intrigues me about possibly getting a Prometheus is the speed at which it can measure charges vs even a charge master. 15 seconds on the Prometheus with essentially no over/under charges compared to 30-40 seconds on the Charge master with 1 in 10 needing some sort of attention before it's correct within 0.1 gr. That's sexy.
 
#55
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

I have a Prometheus 1.5 with web cam, it’s the speed with accuracy, and I can run 5+ rounds a minute with not much effort. One thing I do not see calculated when discussing reloading is the persons billable hr rate factored in there reloading, my time away from work is at a higher rate.
 
#56
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

Good God, I obviously did not know the specifics of the statement, thats why I asked. I certainly did not indicate wether it would be easy or not. I know now and completely understand. I'm no pro but I have handled a rifle enough to know how dificult it would be to keep 40 rounds under 2" at 200, 5 would be a diferent story. Thanks for the explanation and sorry I took up your time.

okie
 
#57
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

Okie, no problemmo. Like most short statements, mine was lacking in details, which make the true point.

It's a challenge, and one of precisely the proper degree of difficulty. A challenge should be doable, if only just so. I think Scotty has hit it on just the right degree.

Rather than fill bandwidth bragging about others' accomplishements, I'll leave the floor open for them to do the elucidation.

Greg
 
#58
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't shoot benchrest rifles, so I don't use benchrest reloading techniques.

I do like to keep my charges within .1 gr. It's not really that difficult.

I do not turn necks or any of that stuff. It's just not needed in any of my rifles. </div></div>

I use Lee PPM and get within .1 gr. and my ogive is within .002. I am happy with that. All lee gear at that.
 
#59
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I do like to keep my charges within .1 gr. It's not really that difficult.

</div></div>

I'm with you. I throw R-15 and IMR 4895 with a Redding 3BR. I throw a couple and put them on the scale. When I get 5 in a row that are dead on, I throw 10 into a cup and take the average. When it's good, I'm off to loading. I'll check one on the scale every 20 or so, and it's always right where I want it. Loading to +/- .1gr will give great SD and results at long range. It's all in your technique and consistency.
 
#63
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Altimeter1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny how we spend more time getting the powder charge just right and top the load off with a bullet that can vary up to 2 grains.</div></div>

Bingo, give that man a cigar!

This is why I believe in load confirmation when evolving to new component lots, and also why I avoid getting anal about any of the more esoteric handloading techniques.

I think that although some mighty fine accuracy can be achieved, it may often come with a weighty parasitic load of handloading demands. I think that 1/2MOA is nice, but 1MOA is adequate, and a helluva lot simpler to achieve at the loading bench. This being in line with Langelius' Axiom, which states: "Handloading is a necesary evil".

I base my 'Axiom' on a few observations and suspicions.

In competition, I have only seen 1MOA honestly achieved twice in two years at 200yd; and this with optics and supported rifles.

Brass is elastic under firing conditions. IMHO, this means that all that painstakingly achieved shaping and correcting one does with their brass is pretty much undone early on after ignition in the firing cycle, and well before full operating pressures are reached.

A resized case is probably loose in the chamber, by maybe a few thousandths. Between gravity and extractor pressure (and God knows what else, maybe the phases of the Moon...?), it's probably neither centered nor parallel with either the chamber axis or the bore axis, so all that precious concentricity is correlated with..., wait for it..., nothing. Ever wonder why everything measures perfect, yet the firing pin indent is off-center? IMHO, don't worry about it.

I don't disbelieve the value of advanced handloading, nor do I discount the achievements of great accuracy some attain. I just don't subscribe to the 'accuracy at any cost' philosophy. I make allowance for some imperfections on my part, on my rifle's part, and my ammunition's part, and readjust my accuracy requirements to an area of less demand, which I consider more 'practical'.

Plus my strength is as the strength of ten, for my heart is pure...

Greg</div></div>

I am in concurrence with Greg. Science has an inherent resilience to perfection. You can account for all known variables, yet the desired result will rarely be achieved due to the presence of unidentifiable and unquantifiable variables. For this reason, I try to keep my loading simple, and I refuse to turn necks bc I can almost guarantee that it won't yield any more precision in my loads.
 
#64
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

If you reprogram your chargemster. It will throw we the Prometheus. Mine throws a powder charge in 7 to 10 seconds. I know that machine is the cat whiskers but it cost a lot more. The chargemaster will hold its own with it.

Sometimes people spend a lot of money and time on reloading. There is only so much you can do. The real effect on shooting at long range is trigger time. Save your money a go with a chargemaster. It will produce you single digit SDs.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ratbert is right about needing a consistent boom at distance. However I wonder if some of the other practices...like weighing cases, flash hole uniforming, testing primers/powder consistency, seating depths and other tricks might do more than .1 grains of powder toward gaining that consistent boom.</div></div>

Agreed, I was speaking only to the relationship of barrel harmonics tuning to short vs long range accuracy; I did not mean to imply that I thought measuring powder charges to ever more precise levels was the end-all of consistency.

That said, the thing that actually intrigues me about possibly getting a Prometheus is the speed at which it can measure charges vs even a charge master. 15 seconds on the Prometheus with essentially no over/under charges compared to 30-40 seconds on the Charge master with 1 in 10 needing some sort of attention before it's correct within 0.1 gr. That's sexy.
</div></div>
 
#67
Re: How are you guys droppng your powder?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: generalquark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lee perfect powder measure and the cheapy lee scale.</div></div>

I'm another Lee perfect powder measure fan, but not the scales.
I dump a near enough light charge and trickle the rest with a Targetmaster automatic trickler and a tuned 502 scale.

As here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnVOoGd1bDU
 
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